Where's the magic?

**Ovation** · 16 January 2008, 12:25 Wednesday

I have the same television you have so you should be sure to use the "16x9" feature in your TV menu to get the best image quality with any DVD that says "enhanced for widescreen" on the box.

Alright, here's what I would do.

1) You don't need both the s-video and component video connections to your TV. Your receiver should convert all its video inputs to component output. This will save you from switching inputs on your TV.

2) You also don't need the analogue connection from the satellite box to the receiver. The optical one will carry all the signals you need.

3) Your DVD is properly connected.

4) In your satellite box, make sure you enable Dolby Digital output in the settings (I don't have that box, so I don't know where the settings are, but it should be there). This will ensure that anything broadcast in 5.1 DD will be sent that way to your receiver.

5) In your DVD player, make sure you indicate "16x9" or "widescreen" as your TV type (even though it isn't really a widescreen TV--assuming your model numbers are correct). This will let you use the "enhanced 16x9" mode with anamorphic DVDs and it will NOT adversely affect "full screen" playback for those DVDs that are "full screen". (you just don't select enhanced mode on your TV for those DVDs). Also, in your DVD player, make sure that "bitstream" is enabled for your digital audio output. This will send DD 5.1 to your receiver via the optical connection. (you may have to enable DTS separately. If so, do it as well).

Get a copy of either Avia or DVE (Digital Video Essentials)--I have the latter and it is pretty good at explaining things, though it is long-winded. Play it in your DVD player and follow along with the instructions. If you don't want to get that technical, then find a DVD with a THX Optimizer (almost any Disney cartoon DVD--including the Pixar ones--has this) and follow the instructions for video and audio. It's pretty straightforward and will help make your whole system work better. To make sure your speakers are at the proper level, it is best to get a sound pressure meter (Radio Shack has an inexpensive one that is widely used). You can use the SPL with the tones from the THX Optimizer or with the receiver (the Optimizer might be easier to use--YMMV).

For speaker placement, ideally all speakers should be equidistant from your listening area--if not, measure them (as you have done) and try to make sure the front three are either in a gentle arc (all the same distance from you), or, if that's not practical, in a flat plane. Either way, try to get the tweeters as close to ear height when seated as you can (easier with the L/R than the centre, often times--just use these placement suggestions as a guide, not a hard rule, if you cannot place them exactly as described). The rears should be in the same arc (again, if possible) but with the tweeters about a foot higher than the fronts--this will give you a more diffuse surround sound.

I don't have any of the other gear in your list, so my suggestions are not as precise as they might otherwise be. The most important thing, though, is to make sure the speakers are connected to the proper channels, the levels are reasonably equal at the listening position for each channel, the speakers are arranged to envelop the listening area (not all in front of you), the sub should be at 1/3 to 1/2 volume on its own volume setting (a corner placement can often be the best compromise, depending on the room and its layout) and the connections to and from your gear are made as I outlined above.

Someone with more knowledge and set up experience will likely be along to refine my suggestions. In the meantime, try not to get discouraged.

Oh, I guess I should have started by asking: How were your expectations disappointed? Knowing that could help focus any future suggestions.

**girlatplay** · 16 January 2008, 12:59 Wednesday

Thanks Ovation. I thought that I might be redundant with cables, but I went with the manual's suggestion. I have no idea what you're talking about with the 16x9 feature but I'm going to be checking my manual for it in minutes. The dvd is new to me so I'm not sure where to find everything on it yet. I had read about the bitstream setting, thank you for reminding me of it! Regarding speaker placement: I was knocking around the idea of building my own stands, (I saw a neat plan right here in this site) as I've just got them sort of place about on impromtu stools. The layout of my room is a rectangle, however two walls have double french doors, one has a fireplace and mantle and the 4th is all windows. So.. I've got this odd little furniture arrangement around the fireplace and then the tv and audio is in a cupboard in the corner of the room. I know that I still have some work to do in their permanent placement. (I also have an abundance of speaker wire to trim - as I fed it through the unfinished basement rafters and left the lengths until I was more sure of myself.)

The sub confuses me completely. I can't seem to get my head around it's concept. Low frequencies and that sort of thing.. but I can't find the proper setting and I've convinced myself that will come with time and knowledge. It seemed pretty good when I tested with a Pirates of the Caribbean DVD but when I switched over to a Sting CD it nearly blew me out the front windows.

I guess I'm disappointed because I thought that there would be a much better and NOTICEABLE audio. The sound coming from my PC sounds richer playing music than what I've got setup downstairs. I thought that I'd be "transported" with sound and get chills on how crisp and clean the sounds were. You know.. lose yourself in a beautiful piece of music? Hear things that you never heard before? Perhaps my expectations were too high for what I bought?

**cug** · 16 January 2008, 13:27 Wednesday

Originally posted by girlatplay

The sub confuses me completely. I can't seem to get my head around it's concept. Low frequencies and that sort of thing.. but I can't find the proper setting and I've convinced myself that will come with time and knowledge. It seemed pretty good when I tested with a Pirates of the Caribbean DVD but when I switched over to a Sting CD it nearly blew me out the front windows.

I guess I'm disappointed because I thought that there would be a much better and NOTICEABLE audio. The sound coming from my PC sounds richer playing music than what I've got setup downstairs. I thought that I'd be "transported" with sound and get chills on how crisp and clean the sounds were. You know.. lose yourself in a beautiful piece of music? Hear things that you never heard before? Perhaps my expectations were too high for what I bought?

I guess the problem you're seeing (hearing) is, that this speaker combo is meant for small home theater setups. Not for audio. Nearly all small home theater combos sound weak when you don't feed them the surround information they need.

It's a little bit like asking a native french speaker with no english skills to speak english (please, french natives, no offense - this could be a German native, a russian native, whatsoever - I chose french because I like the accent and everybody knows how it sounds ... ;-)) You get something different compared to when you ask a native english speaker.

Translated to your equipment that means: ask a pair of stereo speakers and amplifier in the same price range as your stuff to make home theater sound and you'll be disappointed. Ask your equipment to make good stereo music - and again, you'll be disappointed. A setup that does both equally good is more expensive and still has to be fine tuned.

I can't comment on your exact equipment, but that's what I see as the main reason for the effect you have now. Below a certain price range, it seems pretty much impossible for me to get something that does home theater and stereo audio in an acceptable quality.

That's one of the reason I don't have a TV, no home theater gear, nothing. Just a cd player, little amplifier, high end speakers: I don't have the money for home theater in that quality but I'd never want anything below that quality for my music ...

Just my 2 cents

**girlatplay** · 16 January 2008, 13:54 Wednesday

Thanks for your opinion Cug. I think I bought a midrange amp, the speakers are also a good bang for your buck set. I didn't buy a small system, but then I certainly didn't go top end either. Don't let the word "Micra" fool you, there's quite a whallup in their small size. I didn't buy a home theatre in a box (not that there's anything wrong with that) but instead thought I'd piece my own creation together. The amp was made for audio as well as video. I was going for some equal balance (good sound from both) So.. I'm not sure I understand your reference. To me.. the amp is the superbrain.. the perfect translator. (no accents) But then there is very little I do know about this subject.. and even that is questionable.

I do think you're right about the fine tuning...
To Ovation.. found the 16x9 reference... it has made a huge difference. I programmed the dvd and the tv for it and also removed the unnecessary cables. The satellite is already set to digital dolby/PCM which I think is appropriate so I don't miss anything. I think maybe just speaker placement and the callibration... anything else?

**cug** · 16 January 2008, 14:54 Wednesday

Originally posted by girlatplay

Thanks for your opinion Cug. I think I bought a midrange amp, the speakers are also a good bang for your buck set. I didn't buy a small system, but then I certainly didn't go top end either. Don't let the word "Micra" fool you, there's quite a whallup in their small size. I didn't buy a home theatre in a box (not that there's anything wrong with that) but instead thought I'd piece my own creation together. The amp was made for audio as well as video. I was going for some equal balance (good sound from both) So.. I'm not sure I understand your reference. To me.. the amp is the superbrain.. the perfect translator. (no accents) But then there is very little I do know about this subject.. and even that is questionable.

It's a matter of perspective. Keep in mind, that mid-range is something with a different meaning for you and for other people.

I strongly believe I have a "high end" stereo speaker set. They have an MSRP of $5000 (CAD). But that's my point of view. Others see them as mid-range compared to their $20k or more speakers. And others again might see that price as just ridiculous to spent on a pair of speakers.

For me, you bought a nice little amplifier, no question. You also bought a set of small home-theater speakers - it's just a question of what you compare. I'm pretty sure, your setup gives you a lot for the price, but I still think, that you have a home theater setup, that was never meant to play Beethoven in any "high-fidelity" way. It was meant for a not to big room as a good entry level surround set.

You might be able to tune your setup to get some audio performance that is acceptable for you - at least I hope you can -, but it will never be better than just two stereo speakers with an amplifier for the same price. You probably know that the less features you build into something with the price staying the same, that you can make these features better because you don't have to worry about others.

A good low cost stereo set is minimalistic, because then it can concentrate on just "reproducing stereo music". A good low cost home theater set adds dozens of features and requirements to the equation. It is plain impossible to build the same quality for the same money into 6 speaker compared to when you only have to build 2 speakers. That's the problem which specialized equipment.

I'd say tune as much as you can with testing different parameters and setups for home theater and probably different parameters for audio listening - try to get the best out of it. But don't expect too much.

If you are not happy with the result and you really believe you squeezed the best it can give out of the equipment, than quantify what you want and what you want and can do to achieve that. If you say you need the setup for 90% home theater and 10% music - I wouldn't worry about suboptimal audio performance. If it is the other way around - you might have bought the wrong stuff. I don't think that as it seems you checked what you want before you bought and you are just disappointed that it doesn't deliver in the quality
you expected. But if you expect good audio performance you should have bought stuff for good audio performance and not a home theater system. I would not expect good home theater performance from my system and I spent more on the cd player than the speakers and amplifier of your system are together. My system is not made for home theater - so I don't expect it to perform well. Yours is the other way around.

Originally posted by girlatplay

I do think you're right about the fine tuning...

Hopefully you find a setting that delivers what you expect. If not you have to rethink what you want from your system.

cug

**girlatplay** · 16 January 2008, 14:57 Wednesday

forgive me Cug... I'm obviously out of my depth.

**cug** · 16 January 2008, 15:28 Wednesday

Originally posted by girlatplay

forgive me Cug... I'm obviously out of my depth.

;-)

You know, there is nothing like "the perfect sound". It is always depending on who defines it.

It is only a definition of what is good enough for the money I'm willing to spend. If you define the requirements (like home theater) first and then you say, that you go and listen to different setups and once you are satisfied you define whether you are willing to spent the money you found out buys you the sound / image you want, you literally get what you pay for. Just don't expect more than you have defined and tested with your requirements.

For me, a 300 dollar home theater speaker set and a 300 dollar receiver would be more than good enough for the one movie I watch at home every month - but I would hate to have only that setup. Because I listen to music every single day. Sometimes a couple of minutes, sometimes for hours. So, you personal taste defines what you have to spent to get the result you want. No review will help there because these are written by other people with different taste.

I'm pretty sure you'll find an audio setup that will be better than you computer speakers "upstairs" - don't give up with testing the right settings and perhaps speaker placement and try to describe in which respect you are disappointed. Bass missing? Try to optimize sub settings / placement. Depth missing? Check whether a different position for the front speakers help. Highs to crisp or not crisp enough? Check whether there is a way to compensate that with a setting in the receiver. And so on. You kill a lot of sound by bad speaker placement and settings - so try to get the best. If that's not enough - re-evaluate what you want. That's all I can say.

**John Holmes** · 16 January 2008, 15:32 Wednesday

Welcome to The Guide, girlatplay!

Let's clear one thing off the bat, While cug may have good intentions, he's lost focus of the point of this site and thread. We help those with what they have...period. To suggest (if asked) is one thing about a change of equipment. To continue to push it, is harrassment, male or female. We help "every" level and type of gear and people.

With that said, girlatplay, Ovation has given great and solid advice. Give his suggestions a try and let us know how things sound. We will assist as best we can, to help you get where you would like to be sound wise.

Again, Welcome!

**cug** · 16 January 2008, 15:49 Wednesday

Originally posted by John Holmes

Let's clear one thing off the bat, While cug may have good intentions, he's lost focus of the point of this site and thread. We help those with what they have...period. To suggest (if asked) is one thing about a change of equipment. To continue to push it, is harrassment, male or female. We help "every" level and type of gear and people.

I'm sorry if it sounded that I didn't want to help there - maybe I wrote that not good enough (english is not my native language), but believe me, I didn't want to push someone to buy something else.

So, if that came along wrong - it was not my intention to demote a system, it was my intention to encourage to keep in mind for what that said system was designed for while still optimizing to get a result that makes happy for both home theater and music.

**girlatplay** · 16 January 2008, 15:49 Wednesday

Thanks John... you came in just in time... I was all out of bubble gum.

**John Holmes** · 16 January 2008, 15:55 Wednesday

Originally posted by cug

I'm sorry if it sounded that I didn't want to help there - maybe I wrote that not good enough (english is not my native language), but believe me, I didn't want to push someone to buy something else.

So, if that came along wrong - it was not my intention to demote a system, it was my intention to encourage to keep in mind for what that said system was designed for while still optimizing to get a result that makes happy for both home theater and music.

I understand. Thanks for taking the time to express your intent.

**John Holmes** · 16 January 2008, 15:57 Wednesday

Originally posted by girlatplay

Thanks John... you came in just in time... I was all out of bubble gum.

Your welcome. Now go work on that system! :T

**bmowis** · 16 January 2008, 16:18 Wednesday

Hi,

Just wanted to add my two cents since I hate reading about folks new to the game who are let down by their purchases.

Firstly, I can attest to your H/K AVR 146 receiver. I've owned H/K receivers (AVRs 135 and 240) and they are fantastic little things. The quality of your receiver/amplifier is not where your problem is.

If you imagine yourself switching fairly frequently between music and movies/television, you could probably greatly improve your setup by picking up a couple of nice Bookshelf speakers to replace your front satellite speakers. This would add a fair bit to your experience and take some of the load off of your subwoofer when you're playing music.

...Personally, I've always enjoyed listening to music in straight stereo mode rather then with a 5 or 6 speakers. It's crisper and not as muddled, and it's as easy as pressing a button on your remote.

Anyway, if you're truly disappointed and looking to do something about it, I'd start asking around for a nice set of Stereo speakers to accompany your existing setup.

Oh, one last thing... When I first jumped on the Surround Sound bandwagon a few years back, I had similar expectation issues. I pictured myself sitting in the middle of my living room listening to my music with my new system. I pictured hearing the orchestra all around me - strings on the right, horns on the left, percussion behind me, choir in front of me, etc. I had no idea how surround sound algorithms work and therefore had unreasonable expectations. When I finally got my system set up and installed, and all I heard out of the surround speakers was basically a quiet echo of what was coming out of the front speakers, my balloon popped.

If you're looking for a 'surround sound' experience while listening to your music, you may want to look into Super Audio CDs or Music DVDs (both of which are typically Dolby Digital 5.1). This (along with your existing speaker setup) may give you a taste of the audio experience you're looking for.

**Ovation** · 17 January 2008, 08:10 Thursday

Girlatplay,

Just thought of something for music playback--I used to have a sat/sub speaker system that did just fine for movies but for music was mediocre at best (gave them to a friend who A) is NOT an audiophile in the least AND B) NEVER uses them for music--he's quite happy). They were paired with an AVR that had a fixed 80hz crossover (perfectly fine for the speakers I have now, but not so good with those). When I upgraded my receiver, I tried them out at different crossover frequencies. Normally, 80hz is about as high as one should go to avoid localization issues (you want the sub to appear to be part of the other speakers, rather than picking out its location--above 80hz is generally where the sub becomes noticeable in a specific place rather than seeming to mate with the speakers seamlessly) BUT, with speakers that cannot effectively go lower than 100hz (or even 120hz), it can be better to live with a bit of localization while making your mid-range response fuller. It's a compromise but it is often better than stubbornly sticking with the classic 80hz setting. I presume the H/K AVR147 has more than one crossover setting, so I would try something in the 100-120hz range (even 150hz, if you have to, but that might be too much of a compromise) as a setting and play some pop/rock/jazz with some solid mid-range bass and see if that doesn't make the music sound better.

As for surround music, it's a question of managing expectations. The matrix fields (probably LOGIC7 in addition to Dolby Pro Logic II (Music) and DTS:Neo6 (Music) will not create an "in the band" experience. Rather, they will give the impression that you are in a venue with the band primarily up front and the "reflections" of the venue will envelop you. This is the effect that even most discrete MCH audio recordings try to reproduce. If you want to be "in the band", AIX makes some MCH music recordings that are compatible with your gear (in DD and DTS--it is also in DVD-A format: higher resolution, but same mix) that offer an "audience mix" and an "on stage" mix. If you want to go the hi-res MCH audio route, you can also look into SACDs, but perhaps you want to go one step at a time. Meanwhile, if you want to have a "solid wall of sound", you could try the "5/7 channel stereo" mode (some times called "all stereo"--don't know what H/K calls it). It's not "surround" but it does fill the room and all your speakers put out music. I use it for parties, sometimes.

gd · 17 January 2008, 12:26 Thursday

Just to support Ovation's suggestion, I checked on the Micra 6 spec and the FR is indeed 100Hz-20KHz... so you will need to pay careful attention to your speaker setup, particularly with crossover settings (I don't know if a 100Hz setting option is available to you in that HK receiver).

Also, in pursuit of full rich sound, know that room size (and shape, and surface texture) will influence the sound quality... the Micra 6's may be hard pressed to fill a room bigger than, say, 12'x12'.

But do a proper setup (from scratch) first, then determine how they sound.

**Ovation** · 17 January 2008, 13:07 Thursday

If the specs show 100hz as the bottom, I'd go as high as 120hz with the crossover with little hesitation (though I'd try a lower one as well).

**John Holmes** · 18 January 2008, 18:09 Friday

Originally posted by gd

Just to support Ovation's suggestion, I checked on the Micra 6 spec and the FR is indeed 100Hz-20KHz... so you will need to pay careful attention to your speaker setup, particularly with crossover settings (I don't know if a 100Hz setting option is available to you in that HK receiver).

Also, in pursuit of full rich sound, know that room size (and shape, and surface texture) will influence the sound quality... the Micra 6's may be hard pressed to fill a room bigger than, say, 12'x12'.

But do a proper setup (from scratch) first, then determine how they sound.

This post got me curious so, I too looked them up. I found this info on the Athena site: " The Micra system works extremely well in rooms of approximately 400 sq ft or less."

So, gd, has a very good point about taking your room's size into consideration.

**girlatplay** · 20 January 2008, 22:39 Sunday

Thank you.. to all of you. It will take me quite some time just to decipher what it is you've said.. but I'm sure they are all excellent suggestions. Just so you know.. I print all your notes out and I do take the time to a) figure out what language you're speaking b) learn the language and then c) test all suggestions.

As an update, I have played around with settings and I've had some really good sound. I'm sure I will continue to learn what the avr is capable of as well as getting the proper sound out of that sub. I think that I sort of assumed that the system was a "one size fits all" kind of setup. You know you set it up once and it plays perfectly for any cd/dvd/radion station/satellite tv show or movie. In retrospect I'm a little embarassed for that notion, but this is how you learn, right?

I still have the room setup to configure better, I'm currently working on the stands as the speakers are sort of just MacGyver'd around the room. I'm using the Torchiere floor lamp idea. (You get the old lamp and cut it off at the right height and then mount your satellite to it. ) It's a relatively small room so I'm afraid large wooden bases and mounts would be too cumbersome and just seem awkward.

Anyway, thanks again.

**Ovation** · 20 January 2008, 22:50 Sunday

If your room is on the smaller size, then a higher crossover frequency will be less problematic and the size of your speakers should be, with careful placement, fine as well.

No one "gets it" all at once and half the fun (for me, anyway) is the tinkering. Enjoy.

**whoaru99** · 21 January 2008, 21:44 Monday

I've heard the Athena Micra 6 and, in fact, bought the set for my (ex) girlfriend when we were an item. I thought they sounded very good.

gd · 22 January 2008, 11:22 Tuesday

Originally posted by girlatplay

I think that I sort of assumed that the system was a "one size fits all" kind of setup. You know you set it up once and it plays perfectly for any cd/dvd/radion station/satellite tv show or movie. In retrospect I'm a little embarassed for that notion

Your notion isn't so wrong... ideally, you want to 'set it and forget it' – i.e., after careful calibration you really should be able to get good sound quality from a variety of sources without any on-the-fly tweaking, other than volume.

Sound quality is a very subjective and elusive topic... moreso than equipment, it has to do with your environment (room) and your personal criteria for good sound – particularly for music... remember that when you compare your new HT setup to the PC system you mentioned earlier, it is a different system in a different space.

That said, the HK/Athena system should easily beat the PC, but only after a careful and deliberate speaker setup – be willing to start again from scratch... after that, you may need to address the room.

Good luck.

**John Holmes** · 22 January 2008, 21:12 Tuesday

girlatplay,

You should also google or yahoo search you Athena's for reviews that have been done. I found several positive reviews of the Micra 6 system when playing music and movies. From sources that I trust to give an honest (though subjective) review of equipment.

I think once you've made a few adjustments, the system "should" easily top the pc setup.

Where's the magic?

Where's the magic?

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