HDMI problems, especially 1.3

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  • Chris D
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Dec 2000
    • 16875

    #1

    HDMI problems, especially 1.3

    Yikes. I just went to a conference on HDMI, and it was NOT pretty. Had representatives from HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, Microsoft, two cable companies, and various manufacturers of A/V equipment, in addition to some industry experts like Joe Kane.

    I knew we were in trouble with HDMI standards when right off the bat, the Denon representative admitted that before they sat down for the panel, he didn't even know that there was a new standard beyond HDMI 1.3. So far, we have HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3a, and 1.3b category II. We've got all sorts of problems with HDMI that is making performance and implementation difficult. I had a hard time keeping up with the panel that was presenting at the conference, so I won't even pretend to speak like an expert and teach all info, just pass on some more basic stuff. I personally, over the course of listening to the panel, went from feeling secure about the good performance I was getting with my own HDMI 1.1 equipment, to virtual terror seeing the future of the industry, back to optimistic hope.

    As most of you know, where we stand at this point in time is really with consumer electronics putting out HDMI 1.1 and 1.2. HDMI 1.2 adds few aspects to HDMI 1.1 that most people currently use, such as SACD transmission. We are just now starting to see HDMI 1.3 appear in products, with many new products being released this summer and fall. It's fairly clear that the future of the industry is a single digital connection carrying all audio and video in high-resolution. As the industry has put all their eggs in the basket of HDMI, it's headed that direction, but not without troubles. At the conference, they pointed out that of all their custom installers, only one even used HDMI for their customers, as they had too many problems getting reliable performance without repeat servicing calls. They're still using component video, so it's far from dead!

    HDMI 1.3 (both a and b) add various features--I couldn't even fully remember and explain them all, but things like a deeper color space. The biggest thing we emphasize about HDMI 1.3 is the capability to transmit high-res audio from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. However, the big problem is, if any manufacturer says that their product is "HDMI 1.3 compliant", it could be capable of any number of the HDMI 1.3 features, but not necessarily all! So for example, you could have a situation where out of your player, cables, A/V processor and/or HDMI switcher, and video display, if even one is not compliant with any feature, say deep color, you won't get that performance out of your system. We all found it rather odd that for a "standard", it is "optional" which features you comply with.

    So the only answer for a consumer is, that he/she must ask each manufacturer of a product they're purchasing WHICH features of HDMI it offers. Of course, the next issue is determining whether the info you get (or don't get) from the manufacturer is accurate. Do you even want to guess what kind of info you'll be able to get from the store salesmen?

    Every person on the panel also bemoaned the construction of the HDMI plug, as well as the lack of a lock on the plug. Denon had tried securing the plug to panels when it's mounted parallel to the panel and the cable lies against it. That works well, but it's rarely the situation. More often, the plug sticks out perpendicular to any panel faces, going to the back of a cabinet.

    To be fair, the panelists did describe the people of the HDMI group themselves to be good folks, really wanting to work to make things better. But we don't seem to be going in a very good direction. Matter of fact, I think it was Joel Silver that made the statement that HDMI is the worst implemented standard in the industry since NTSC was created. Nobody else disagreed with him. Scary! In the end, everyone seemed to agree that there's always problems implementing a new standard, and we A/V geeks are the ones on the front lines of early adopting, so we'll see problems, but they think we'll get it figured out.

    Consumers are just going to have some big challenges implementing HDMI 1.3 over the next year, and that even goes for us A/V geeks that think we know a thing or two about our gear.
    CHRIS

    Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
    - Pleasantville
  • George Bellefontaine
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Jan 2001
    • 7636

    #2
    Holy s--t, that's scary. :scareboo:
    My Homepage!

    Comment

    • aud19
      Twin Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2003
      • 16706

      #3
      The thing with Deep Colour is that there is currrently no movies produced in it and no displays that can display it. Bit of a chicken/egg situation there.
      Jason

      Comment

      • chrispy35
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2004
        • 198

        #4
        A bit of a side question here: Do the a/v equipment manufacturers ever get together (or plan to get together) for HDMI 'plug-fests' in order to see who's compatible with who and where mistakes in implementation or holes in the spec exist.

        Chris P.

        Comment

        • gd
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2003
          • 583

          #5
          The Single-Cable Dream has been the biggest Red Herring in the entire history of HT.

          Between the format wars, proprietary-technology licensing, underdeveloped / oversold technology and insane preoccupation with piracy control, it's no surprise HDMI can't be made to work (optimally).

          No more early adapting for this geek.

          At this point, I've invested in miles of A&V cable – it's all in place and it all works.

          Wake me when a genuinely practical HT upgrade is created.
          .
          greg (gd to you)
          .
          Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
          production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.

          Frank Zappa

          Comment

          • gianni
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2002
            • 524

            #6
            Chris D,

            A sincere Thank You for sharing what took place in this meeting.

            This really underscores why I get completely bewildered when I see posts on this forum by people who are making their equipment decisions based solely on HDMI. This will likely cause one to overlook very good components in trade for the unfulfilled promise of HDMI. The concept is attractive, while the execution is very poor. Given the way many of these participants quibble, I think a reasonable implemenation of HDMI is still a long way off.

            Comment

            • Lex
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Apr 2001
              • 27460

              #7
              Thanks for the effort Chris. I personally can't see who really wants a single cable so bad, is it the HDMI folks? The industry using HDMI, like maybe it's custom installers? or the consumer? Or perhaps NONE of the above?

              Do you really think Joe Six Pack cares one way or another? I don't. I thin Joe just wants something that works consistently, not a changing standard.
              Doug
              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

              Comment

              • bleeding ears
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2004
                • 435

                #8
                I just had a quick look at the twisted tangled wiring nightmare behind my A/V gear. Frightening !

                I once again thought I need to tidy this up somehow, but then thought hey !its all working well and if it aint broke why fix it! .

                Keep in mind that I dont have a 1080p tv or a bluray/HD player. Besides that, I can think of better things to do with a few hours of my time. Like getting on here and venting some steam. LOL

                Im sure one cable would benefit those that dont want to spend the time involved in wiring and learning which cable to use and where to put it, which is primarily Joe average consumer, but then again if the one cable HDMI setup cannot do what you need it to, I guess it is not an option.


                I wouldn't be surprised to see the next generation of connection/equipment come out before all the issues with HDMI are fully resolved. Move forward and sell gear is what it is about, right ! Trying to resolve issues in gear already sold (and profit already made) I think, may be too hard and costly to consider. Out with the old and in with the new right!

                But hey, then again they may be able to sell that brand new player or processor that is compatible and should fix the problems.

                And so the merrygo round will keep turning !

                Hmmm, I think I will stick with component and my tangled mess for some time yet.

                Comment

                • ToddAnisman
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2005
                  • 142

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Chris D
                  Yikes. I just went to a conference on HDMI, and it was NOT pretty. Had representatives from HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, Microsoft, two cable companies, and various manufacturers of A/V equipment, in addition to some industry experts like Joe Kane.

                  I knew we were in trouble with HDMI standards when right off the bat, the Denon representative admitted that before they sat down for the panel, he didn't even know that there was a new standard beyond HDMI 1.3. So far, we have HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3a, and 1.3b category II. We've got all sorts of problems with HDMI that is making performance and implementation difficult. I had a hard time keeping up with the panel that was presenting at the conference, so I won't even pretend to speak like an expert and teach all info, just pass on some more basic stuff. I personally, over the course of listening to the panel, went from feeling secure about the good performance I was getting with my own HDMI 1.1 equipment, to virtual terror seeing the future of the industry, back to optimistic hope.

                  As most of you know, where we stand at this point in time is really with consumer electronics putting out HDMI 1.1 and 1.2. HDMI 1.2 adds few aspects to HDMI 1.1 that most people currently use, such as SACD transmission. We are just now starting to see HDMI 1.3 appear in products, with many new products being released this summer and fall. It's fairly clear that the future of the industry is a single digital connection carrying all audio and video in high-resolution. As the industry has put all their eggs in the basket of HDMI, it's headed that direction, but not without troubles. At the conference, they pointed out that of all their custom installers, only one even used HDMI for their customers, as they had too many problems getting reliable performance without repeat servicing calls. They're still using component video, so it's far from dead!

                  HDMI 1.3 (both a and b) add various features--I couldn't even fully remember and explain them all, but things like a deeper color space. The biggest thing we emphasize about HDMI 1.3 is the capability to transmit high-res audio from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. However, the big problem is, if any manufacturer says that their product is "HDMI 1.3 compliant", it could be capable of any number of the HDMI 1.3 features, but not necessarily all! So for example, you could have a situation where out of your player, cables, A/V processor and/or HDMI switcher, and video display, if even one is not compliant with any feature, say deep color, you won't get that performance out of your system. We all found it rather odd that for a "standard", it is "optional" which features you comply with.

                  So the only answer for a consumer is, that he/she must ask each manufacturer of a product they're purchasing WHICH features of HDMI it offers. Of course, the next issue is determining whether the info you get (or don't get) from the manufacturer is accurate. Do you even want to guess what kind of info you'll be able to get from the store salesmen?

                  Every person on the panel also bemoaned the construction of the HDMI plug, as well as the lack of a lock on the plug. Denon had tried securing the plug to panels when it's mounted parallel to the panel and the cable lies against it. That works well, but it's rarely the situation. More often, the plug sticks out perpendicular to any panel faces, going to the back of a cabinet.

                  To be fair, the panelists did describe the people of the HDMI group themselves to be good folks, really wanting to work to make things better. But we don't seem to be going in a very good direction. Matter of fact, I think it was Joel Silver that made the statement that HDMI is the worst implemented standard in the industry since NTSC was created. Nobody else disagreed with him. Scary! In the end, everyone seemed to agree that there's always problems implementing a new standard, and we A/V geeks are the ones on the front lines of early adopting, so we'll see problems, but they think we'll get it figured out.

                  Consumers are just going to have some big challenges implementing HDMI 1.3 over the next year, and that even goes for us A/V geeks that think we know a thing or two about our gear.
                  He he he Welcome to my world.

                  -Todd A.

                  Comment

                  • George Bellefontaine
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Jan 2001
                    • 7636

                    #10
                    Gee, if I didn't have a rat's nest of cables behind my equipment stand I don't know what I'd do. :
                    My Homepage!

                    Comment

                    • Andrew M Ward
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2005
                      • 717

                      #11
                      Ah...
                      The madness (its fun to watch) read the below in your best “Darth Vader” voice

                      You've been sold an idea, the idea is based on a simple lie, and the lie is:
                      "We're going to make things easier for you"

                      What was not said was:
                      We don't want you to have access to our open content and we're going to make damn sure you don't (at any cost...)

                      What was needed to execute that idea?:
                      Sell you an idea (HDMI) and tell you "it’s going to help you"

                      (Still using your Darth Vader voice..?)

                      Oh, By the way:
                      There is nothing wrong with (RGB type) component connections... so we told you it can't do 1080P (another lie)

                      It’s taken years but now we have an army of consumers marching to the drum-beat of HDMI and 1080P (doing just what they were told) and they don’t even realize what they are asking for (Poison Kool-Aid anyone, we’ve got enough for everybody..?)

                      Anybody ever read the Macrovision DVD contract..?
                      It was designed to kill the DVD player as a scaling HD device and in turn - force you into buying the new source machines (HD-DVD & Blu-Ray)

                      There’s more… anybody interested?

                      Comment

                      • jim777
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 831

                        #12
                        I remember the beginning of USB with computers (on Windows '95). It was horror for a long while at first. Now I guess that nobody would want to live without it!

                        Comment

                        • Pez
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2004
                          • 472

                          #13
                          I am suprised at the negatve feedback of a one cable solution. For starters it would greatly simplfy setting up equipment. I hate having all the cables needed now as its a real pain to try and keep in neat and organized (which is very important to me). Plus its takes a long time to hook everything up when you have a lot of equipment. What average consumer wouldnt want to be able to buy one cable for audio and video vs having to decide between opitcal or coaxial for sound and then another one for video? Another thing, lets say you get a new dvd player that only has optical whereas the old one just had coaxial (less of an issue now but I have seen it come up). Or lets say your a/v receiver has 2 optical inputs which are both being used, now you get a xbox and and cant get hook it up since it only uses optical. Or take my rotel 1068, I use all the component inputs and its a real pain to plug/unplug any of them since they are so freaking close to each other.

                          I know this doesnt take into account the BS with the different HDMI specs but I for one would love one cable to carry audio and video. I know it has a way to go but I think in the long run it can only be a good thing (if implemented correctly which is a big if).

                          Comment

                          • Alaric
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 4151

                            #14
                            What average consumer wouldnt want to be able to buy one cable for audio and video vs having to decide between opitcal or coaxial for sound and then another one for video?
                            That would be me. I prefer to run my video connections directly to my RPTV and my audio to my receiver. I'm also more than a little suspicious when a for-profit outfit , with a history of duplicitious "facts" , promises to "help" me. Besides , I don't mind buying cables from Doug!
                            Lee

                            Marantz PM7200-RIP
                            Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                            Schiit Modi 3
                            Marantz CD5005
                            Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 16058

                              #15
                              Even DVI never seemed to have the compatibility issues that have cropped up with HDMI and various brands of equipment that are compatible only with "some" HDMI connections (of the same revision level!) on some brands, and not with others.

                              I did recently buy an LCD 1080P flat panel TV, that model primarily because it has two DVI inputs (one with HDCP, one without), a full 1080P VGA input (go look at all the Sony "1080P" sets that only take 1366 X 768 on VGA) and two sets of 1080i component inputs. Oh yeah, it does have 1 HDMI input, and luck of luck, it DOES work with my Toshiba HD-DVD player, though I hear it DOESN'T work with a Sony PS3... go figure. I do have a little black box in the main theatre that takes DVI with HDCP in and outputs RGB... yeah, officially, things like that don't exist. It does work with an HDMI to DVI converter cable with my HD-DVD player, too. It would be hard to buy one now, though...

                              Me, I'm more of a true wideband RGB fan (not component 4-2-2 or 4-2-0), and use an NEC RGB switcher in my theater with BNC's for all the video source routing. But whadaya expect with a big CRT FPTV? The only way I could get more retro, I guess, is if I went all tube amp for my HT mains and surrounds. Hmmmm, interesting idea.... :B
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
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                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
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                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • Pez
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2004
                                • 472

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Alaric
                                That would be me. I prefer to run my video connections directly to my RPTV and my audio to my receiver. I'm also more than a little suspicious when a for-profit outfit , with a history of duplicitious "facts" , promises to "help" me. Besides , I don't mind buying cables from Doug!
                                I totally get that but I am not concerned what a for profit company says, I just want to have one connection to my pre/pro that can accept a 1080p signal along with LPCM regardless of all the menusa involved with HDMI specs. It downright stinks that with my PS3 I can only get the better video and not audio since it doesnt have multi-channel out. If and when I get an HD-DVD player not only do I need an HDMI cable but 6 audio connects - to me that is unacceptable. I have already spent way to much money on cables. And if the PS3 did have multi channel outputs I would have to swtich them everytime I went from PS3 to HD DVD and vice versa. Considering what a pain it is to get behind my system that is just dumb.

                                Something else, having to switch inputs on my TV was impossible with my universal remote (MX-500) since I dont have discrete input buttons for each video input. Basically I am the only one in my house that knows how to get everything set-up to use the PS3 which is pain. The switching stuff may be no big deal to us here since we know a thing or two about HT but that doesnt mean my system needs to be unnessecarily complicated to run.

                                I guess I am just a little fustrated with the implmentation of HDMI. If it was done right from the beginning I think the a/v world would been much better off. It also doesnt help that my pre/pro doesnt have HDMI inputs and it will be awhile before I can get one (just bought a house so no funds for a/v stuff for awhile).

                                Comment

                                • gianni
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2002
                                  • 524

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Pez
                                  I totally get that but I am not concerned what a for profit company says, I just want to have one connection to my pre/pro that can accept a 1080p signal along with LPCM regardless of all the menusa involved with HDMI specs.......
                                  Yes, it would be nice. However, the reality is spelled out by Andrew M Ward in post #11 of this thread. Alll I can say is read post #11 and think about it, setting aside the notion that one cable would be nice. Why did HDMI really come about in the first place? Who really pushed it?

                                  The information on this post should be on the front cover of every A/V magazine. Of course, that will never happen as the magazines get to many of their advertising dollars from these sources. Fortunately for us, it seems as HDMI is gradually being exposed for what it is. The issues seem to be growing not dwindling.

                                  As this information is unlikely to ever appear in a prominent fashion in any industry publication, iit would be nice to see a sticky outlining many of the issues, and root causes as well as some of the industry motivation that Andrew M Ward mentions. I say this not to torpedo HDMI, but rather to enable consumers to make better decisions considering the current state of affairs. As I mentioned earlier, a one cable solution would be nice but considering the driving force, I'm not holding my breath.

                                  In the meantime, maybe Lex can sell a few more cables.

                                  Comment

                                  • gianni
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2002
                                    • 524

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Andrew M Ward
                                    Ah...
                                    The madness (its fun to watch) read the below in your best “Darth Vader” voice

                                    You've been sold an idea, the idea is based on a simple lie, and the lie is:
                                    "We're going to make things easier for you"

                                    What was not said was:
                                    We don't want you to have access to our open content and we're going to make damn sure you don't (at any cost...)

                                    What was needed to execute that idea?:
                                    Sell you an idea (HDMI) and tell you "it’s going to help you"

                                    (Still using your Darth Vader voice..?)

                                    Oh, By the way:
                                    There is nothing wrong with (RGB type) component connections... so we told you it can't do 1080P (another lie)

                                    It’s taken years but now we have an army of consumers marching to the drum-beat of HDMI and 1080P (doing just what they were told) and they don’t even realize what they are asking for (Poison Kool-Aid anyone, we’ve got enough for everybody..?)

                                    Anybody ever read the Macrovision DVD contract..?
                                    It was designed to kill the DVD player as a scaling HD device and in turn - force you into buying the new source machines (HD-DVD & Blu-Ray)

                                    There’s more… anybody interested?

                                    I'm very interested. Please share! I think if you do others may develop an interest once they get a little better look at the landscape. Might be a real eye opener for some.

                                    Comment

                                    • Pez
                                      Senior Member
                                      • May 2004
                                      • 472

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by gianni
                                      Yes, it would be nice. However, the reality is spelled out by Andrew M Ward in post #11 of this thread. Alll I can say is read post #11 and think about it, setting aside the notion that one cable would be nice. Why did HDMI really come about in the first place? Who really pushed it?
                                      After re-reading the post I guess I will change my stance, a little. I still stand by the idea of one cable more for the ease of it and less clutter whether it be HDMI or any other type. And if read the post correctly (#11) its more about DRM, right? If thats the case I am sure manufacturers would find some other way if HDMI never exisited.

                                      Please keep in mind I am not arguing against anyone here. And I wouldnt call myself a supporter of HDMI, I just support the possibilities of what its capable of. Manufacturers are always going to try and squeeze every penny out of consumers.

                                      As for the macrovision DVD contract comment if normal DVD's dont have enough storage capacity for LCPM wouldnt we need a new format anyways for that regardless of a DVD players ability to upscale SD DVD's?

                                      Comment

                                      • Alaric
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • Jan 2006
                                        • 4151

                                        #20
                                        It also doesnt help that my pre/pro doesnt have HDMI inputs and it will be awhile before I can get one
                                        Also a factor in my position! I also just can't get past the idea that the fewer components that the signal travels through , the less chance one will degrade it.
                                        Lee

                                        Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                        Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                        Schiit Modi 3
                                        Marantz CD5005
                                        Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                        Comment

                                        • Chris D
                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2000
                                          • 16875

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Lex
                                          Do you really think Joe Six Pack cares one way or another? I don't. I thin Joe just wants something that works consistently, not a changing standard.
                                          Well, my own personal impression--Joe 6 Pack wants to be assured that he is getting the best performance possible for his money. Joe doesn't want to do research to see what brands, models, or technologies are actually better than others. Joe may not even have the ABILITY to discern the difference. But the last thing Joe wants is to get the feeling that he could have gotten something better.

                                          That's why Bose and Monster do so well--they're not the best in the business, but they are EXPERTS in marketing, creating the impression in the public that they're the best! J6P feels like he knows what he's talking about when he turns to his buddy and proclaims, "Bose are AWESOME speakers!" Why? Because he's done comparison, or research? Nope... that's just what he's gotten from the ads.

                                          Where am I going with this? With HDMI, we all would agree that in theory and specs, HDMI is capable of better performance than other connectors. Pure digital, no D/A conversions or analog degradation, etc. That puts the thought in Joe's mind that "HDMI is better", so that's what he wants. HDMI is a newer technology? Well, that must mean that it's automatically better, so Joe wants it more.

                                          I personally believe that having a single cable connection is a benefit that Joe likes, but not what's really important to him. For that matter, I personally feel the same way--one cable is a nice benefit, but not why I use HDMI. If I do it right, I get a better picture with HDMI than I do with other technologies.

                                          Now, for the same reason, if something doesn't work, J6P is pissed, and rightfully so! Joe doesn't care about HDCP, or whether he properly selected the settings deep in the menu details. If something doesn't work, Joe obviously believes that he doesn't have the best equipment for his money. In reality, he MAY have the best stuff, but just doesn't know how to work it! So that's why with the problems with HDMI, Joe's in dangerous territory. (but so are the rest of us, that actually know mostly what we're doing!)
                                          CHRIS

                                          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                          - Pleasantville

                                          Comment

                                          • gianni
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2002
                                            • 524

                                            #22
                                            As if this is not enough, more issues with HDMI in general on a mich more basic level.....

                                            What is wrong with HDMI?

                                            Comment

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