Bi-Wiring??

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  • CombatWombat
    Member
    • Jul 2006
    • 57

    Bi-Wiring??

    Whats the advantages of BI-Wiring for and aganist??

    Does it affect the load the amp sees
    I would think not cause it is still driving two drivers or three depends on the loudspeaker.
  • Ade
    Member
    • Jun 2006
    • 87

    #2
    Originally posted by CombatWombat
    Whats the advantages of BI-Wiring for and aganist??

    Does it affect the load the amp sees
    I would think not cause it is still driving two drivers or three depends on the loudspeaker.
    Against:
    Cable costs more.
    It makes no audible difference.

    For:
    Uh...?

    Comment

    • CombatWombat
      Member
      • Jul 2006
      • 57

      #3
      What about Bi-Amping

      Main thing I dont know is how does it change the load the amp sees

      Comment

      • Ade
        Member
        • Jun 2006
        • 87

        #4
        Originally posted by CombatWombat
        What about Bi-Amping

        Main thing I dont know is how does it change the load the amp sees
        That's a different thing entirely.

        Passive bi-amping using the speaker’s internal crossover may give moderate gains although for some it seems to make no difference. It's very dependant on the speakers I think and probably makes the bigger difference on speakers that are more difficult to drive. A lot of people think that the gains are not worth paying for an extra amp just to do this; then it's probably better to get a more powerful amp to start with.

        Bi-amping using an external active crossover that bypasses the speakers own crossover can give major improvements.

        Comment

        • ht_addict
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2002
          • 508

          #5
          Originally posted by Ade
          That's a different thing entirely.

          Passive bi-amping using the speaker’s internal crossover may give moderate gains although for some it seems to make no difference. It's very dependant on the speakers I think and probably makes the bigger difference on speakers that are more difficult to drive. A lot of people think that the gains are not worth paying for an extra amp just to do this; then it's probably better to get a more powerful amp to start with.

          Bi-amping using an external active crossover that bypasses the speakers own crossover can give major improvements.

          http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
          But are these major improvements the effect of a more efficient crossover or the fact your changing the sound off the speaker?

          Comment

          • Boombox
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2005
            • 203

            #6
            Be careful what you read. Thanks for the article, but it is not a good read.

            I would only test that article's claims with $1 speakers.

            Bi-wiring allows the drivers to obtain as much current from the amp as is possible. It does not always work with poor (cheap or poorly designed) x-overs but at least the manufacturer allows you to experiment. In such designes they have seperate x-overs that handle the mid/highs and those that handle the bass frequencies. Other manufacturers don't believe in bi-wiring or bi-amping because the have optimised their x-over network to attain a specific requirement. Dynaudio for example will guarentee (I have not measured this though and assume their claim to be true) that their speaker's impedance will not drop below 4 ohms, effectivelly saying that your amp rated at 100 watts @ 8ohms will not have to produce a wattage larger than 200 watts; your amp is then "less likely" to clip (assuming your amp's quality is of such to efficiently produce 200W at times).

            Which design is better..?? I don't know.

            .........i do like the four binding posts though........ :B
            Regards :T,

            Boom....a.k.a...."The Box"

            Comment

            • Kal Rubinson
              Super Senior Member
              • Mar 2006
              • 2109

              #7
              Originally posted by ht_addict
              But are these major improvements the effect of a more efficient crossover or the fact your changing the sound off the speaker?
              Usually, the latter since few have the ability to exactly duplicate the transfer function with the original crossover. Of course, you may not want to as the high-level electronic crossover, analog or digital, can afford the designer greater flexibility and control of variables.

              In theory (and in practice), biamping with an appropriate crossover is a superior approach for many reasons but the implementation is all. Can you design an appropriate and competent electronic crossover?

              Kal
              Kal Rubinson
              _______________________________
              "Music in the Round"
              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

              Comment

              • kfr01
                Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 83

                #8
                Originally posted by Boombox
                Be careful what you read. Thanks for the article, but it is not a good read.
                That's a well-regarded article that seems to make sense.

                The author attempts to back his opinions up with theory and practice / evidence. I can't find any flaws.

                Why do you not think it is a good read?
                Karl
                My Chain: PC Audio (EAC + FLAC) --> USB --> PS Audio Digital Link III USB DAC --> Exodus XLR's -->
                Parasound Halo P3 --> Exodus XLR's --> Parasound HCA3500 --> Custom Exodus Audio 2641 Speakers

                Comment

                • Lex
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Apr 2001
                  • 27461

                  #9
                  Bi-amping using an external active crossover that bypasses the speakers own crossover can give major improvements.
                  Actually, there's some mis-information in that quote, or incomplete anyway. First, if you are going to "bypass" the speakers internal crossover, it must be physically disabled and separate the 2-3 way system into 2 or 3 seperate parts (depending on driver setup), and yes, you'll need high quality crossover to do what was going on in the speaker to begin with, but the advantages of course, are to separately amplify the output from the crossover, so the net effect is increasing power, and increasing crossover quality (provided you indeed did replace the speakers internal crossover with a better external unit.

                  Pointing out the obvious disadvantages, many people don't want to get inside the speaker rewiring things, also, if you ever decide to sell them, well then you either have to go back in and rewire again, or sell external crossover assembly with speakers. They have after all, got to be usable.

                  As to the merits of bi-wire, as I tell my customers, you may or may not hear a difference, but even if all you accomplish bi-wiring is removing that thick metal plate that usually crosses highs to low signal, well that's a positive step in theory at least. Additionally, this does possibly mean a little less work for the crossover network, because each terminal already has signal, so less "sharing" would occur or be necessary, at least in theory. Some sharing would then become redundant I suppose.

                  In general, you may not hear a difference bi-wiring, but doing so is still a positive step, leaving nothing to chance at least in this area.

                  Doug
                  Doug
                  "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                  Comment

                  • Alaric
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 4143

                    #10
                    Tried my speakers single-wired and bi-wired.With bi-wiring the bass opened up and the soundstage gained depth.My tone-deaf (literally) wife heard the difference.Don't know nor care about the "theories" involved. If it is indeed a hallucination I'm happy with it.
                    Lee

                    Marantz PM7200-RIP
                    Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                    Schiit Modi 3
                    Marantz CD5005
                    Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                    Comment

                    • Alaric
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Jan 2006
                      • 4143

                      #11
                      BTW , CombatWombat , do you actually have one of those little Hodaka jewels?
                      Lee

                      Marantz PM7200-RIP
                      Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                      Schiit Modi 3
                      Marantz CD5005
                      Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                      Comment

                      • Kal Rubinson
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Mar 2006
                        • 2109

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Lex
                        Actually, there's some mis-information in that quote, or incomplete anyway. First, if you are going to "bypass" the speakers internal crossover, it must be physically disabled and separate the 2-3 way system into 2 or 3 seperate parts (depending on driver setup), and yes, you'll need high quality crossover to do what was going on in the speaker to begin with, but the advantages of course, are to separately amplify the output from the crossover, so the net effect is increasing power, and increasing crossover quality (provided you indeed did replace the speakers internal crossover with a better external unit.
                        True.

                        As to the merits of bi-wire, as I tell my customers, you may or may not hear a difference, but even if all you accomplish bi-wiring is removing that thick metal plate that usually crosses highs to low signal, well that's a positive step in theory at least. Additionally, this does possibly mean a little less work for the crossover network, because each terminal already has signal, so less "sharing" would occur or be necessary, at least in theory. Some sharing would then become redundant I suppose.
                        CONTENTIOUS remark, deleted by moderator. First, on what basis is removing the plate positive, in theory? Second, your concept of sharing has nothing to do with electrical circuitry.

                        In general, you may not hear a difference bi-wiring, but doing so is still a positive step, leaving nothing to chance at least in this area.
                        If you cannot hear a difference, what possible positive step can it be?

                        Kal
                        Kal Rubinson
                        _______________________________
                        "Music in the Round"
                        Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                        http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                        Comment

                        • Alaric
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 4143

                          #13
                          If you cannot hear a difference, what possible positive step can it be?
                          Well , now you know . You didn't just take somebody's word for it. Knowledge is always a positive thing. As for the technical end of the discussion-I'm far from close to qualified to comment. These discussions seem to gravitate towards the "right" and "wrong" camps a lot , so , for the record , I claim it worked for me with my equipment. I don't claim to have proof , experience or technical expertise. I do claim to have hearing test results from the U.S. Army that qualify me to be a German Sheperd. Seriously , the test administrator claimed I could be a guard dog with my hearing range. Of course , I could do a lot of things 26 years ago I can't do now 8O
                          Lee

                          Marantz PM7200-RIP
                          Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                          Schiit Modi 3
                          Marantz CD5005
                          Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                          Comment

                          • Kal Rubinson
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Mar 2006
                            • 2109

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Alaric
                            Of course , I could do a lot of things 26 years ago I can't do now.
                            Same here but, OTOH, there are many things I can do now that I couldn't 26 years ago. :T

                            Kal
                            Kal Rubinson
                            _______________________________
                            "Music in the Round"
                            Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                            http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                            Comment

                            • Alaric
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 4143

                              #15
                              :agree:
                              Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                              Same here but, OTOH, there are many things I can do now that I couldn't 26 years ago. :T

                              Kal
                              Lee

                              Marantz PM7200-RIP
                              Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                              Schiit Modi 3
                              Marantz CD5005
                              Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                              Comment

                              • Alaric
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 4143

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Alaric
                                Well , now you know . You didn't just take somebody's word for it. Knowledge is always a positive thing. As for the technical end of the discussion-I'm far from close to qualified to comment. These discussions seem to gravitate towards the "right" and "wrong" camps a lot , so , for the record , I claim it worked for me with my equipment. I don't claim to have proof , experience or technical expertise. I do claim to have hearing test results from the U.S. Army that qualify me to be a German Sheperd. Seriously , the test administrator claimed I could be a guard dog with my hearing range. Of course , I could do a lot of things 26 years ago I can't do now 8O
                                Waitaminnit....That Army doctor called me a dog....! ops:
                                Lee

                                Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                Schiit Modi 3
                                Marantz CD5005
                                Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                Comment

                                • Lex
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Apr 2001
                                  • 27461

                                  #17
                                  What possible benefit Kal? The fact you have gold over goodness knows what sort of cheap composite material carrying the signal, it may or may not be brass. It is also likely not optimized to carry an audio signal to begin with Sir being a flat hunk of metal. It has no focus like a quality wire does, you may as well be transmitting the signal through a drain pipe. Audiophiles have frequently said these plates can result in smearing of an audio signal.

                                  As to my concept of sharing Kal, no, I am not an electronics engineer, and I never professed to be, but I do know something about cables, and about transmission, so I would appreciate your respect here in "my house". If you cannot give that, then I ask that you do not reply to my posts.

                                  And people wonder why we kill many cable threads before they get going...

                                  These are just contentious topics to begin with. Sometimes, if people would worry about original content instead of just jumping all over what others say, things would remain more calm and peaceful.

                                  I'm now closing this thread.

                                  Doug
                                  HTGuide/CATCables
                                  Owner
                                  Doug
                                  "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                  Comment

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