Biwiring Your B&W's - worth it?

[Karma]

HI All,
I'm just curious how many of us have biwired our systems. Those who have done so, what are your conclusions?

My system, with 805S's and HTM4S in the front are biwired. These are only the second set of speakers I have owned that permit biwiring. The first were Apogee Calipers where biwiring helped considerably.

Now with the 805S and HTM4S I have done it for the second time and I am impressed with the change (good). My surrounds are not biwired and in fact for these speakers I am using very cheap speaker wire on the theory that the effects channels don't contribute enough detailed information to justify the added expense. Do I have this right in your opinion?

Sparky

[RobP]

Hello Karma, I too Bi-wired my N803's and did notice a difference in the upper end, it added more depth and clarity, I have not done so yet on my N805's that I use for surrounds, but when I refinish my HT I do plan on doing it.
My thinking on this is that if it adds even a fraction of the same type of enhancement as I gained in the mains and center channel then it should make the surround effects that much better. :T

[Pieter]

Used to be a firm believer in bi-wiring, not so sure anymore, at least with my current set of speakers.

Bi-wired the Matrix 805 pair I owned. Bi-wired the Nautilus 805 set. Started my 805S pair as bi-wired, but have been running them with a single feed for the past 4 months.

The 805S seemed to lose some coherency when I had them bi-wired, as though treble detail was slightly accentuated at the cost of things hanging together.

Surmise it could be due the crossover region being so much greater in the 805S than with the previous 805 incarnations. Each driver infringes so far into the other's territory that it may not be worth bi-wiring the speaker, it might even degrade the sound. My thoughts.

[Karma]

HI PIeter,
Where did you obtain the crossover curves? I have not seen this information published. Your conclusions are interesting and run counter to what I'm hearing. I wonder if our different speaker wire has anything to do with it.

Sparky

[asrovnal]

I have a pair of 703 which I bi-wired utilizing a Denon 3803. There was little if any change noted. I up graded to a Denon 3806 and followed the manual on how to bi-amp frount speakers by reprograming the rear surrond channel amps. There was an imediate positive sound change also, the 3806 has a two channel function section in it's set up process which permits the selection of a independent sub-woffer crossover selection (I chose 40Hz) and this addition just opened up the 703 to a whole new sonic arena. Very happy now.

[Pieter]

Where did you obtain the crossover curves? I have not seen this information published.

There are frequency response curves for the Nautilus 805 on the Stereophile website. No curves, as you state, for the 805S, but the crossover is 1st order and is set at 4kHz as listed on the B&W site, which differs from the Nautilus 805 which is 2nd order (I believe) and sits at 3kHz.

Your conclusions are interesting and run counter to what I'm hearing. I wonder if our different speaker wire has anything to do with it.

My hearing has been running counter to what I've firmly believed in the past.

As to the wire: could be, as I'm using a set of 9 twisted-pair braided CAT-5 cable to each speaker. The braid inconsistency may be mucking up the sound when I run another set for bi-wiring.

You're scratching an old itch, probably drive me to experiment with bi-wiring again.

[grit]

I had quite the improvement when I bi-wired (clearer sound, more detail... as though someone took a blanket off the speaker). However, I also upgraded my cables, so I can't say for sure what caused the effect.

A suggestion to those of you who don't bi-wire - rather than use the enclosed jumper, make a jumper out of your speaker wire. I suspect that will be a relatively inexpensive way to get some improvement.

[caleb]

Hey Pieter.
When are you down in the fairest Cape Next?

[toddmorr]

My setup is rotel 1080,1072,1070 all new 2 months ago. Speakers are 703s also new. For the first month I wired them with junk wire no biwire, then switched to a biwire setup, using monster Z1 wire. Big difference, especially in the low end. Wow, lots stronger bass, to the point where I almost switched out the wire and tried something else.

[Karma]

HI Todd,
You changed two things at the same time. This is not a good experimetal technique from which to draw conclusions. It's nice that you improved your sound but how can you know whether the improvement was due to the new speaker wires or biwiring? Maybe you don't care but we do. At least I do.

Could you try to isolate the effects by removing the biwire and carefully listening to the system using one set of your new cables? Then, after you are very familiar with the sound of the single wire hookup, add the biwire and report the effects? You should make these changes to all the affected speakers at the same time.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks, Sparky

[GregLett]

When I first got into this hobby about three years ago, I was sold on bi-wiring.
I had my speakers bi-wired for years, then I started to experiment with different
configurations:
Running a single pair and using the factory jumpers did not sound better then
bi-wiring, to be I preferred the bi-wired sound. Then I tried running single pair
with 6" jumpers made from the same type of cable. I noticed no difference
with this configuration, compared to bi-wiring.

My conclusion is that single pair and a jumper made from the same speaker
wire, is the same as bi-wiring. So for me I'll save the extra $$ on speaker cable.

[Karma]

HI Greg,
Why were you sold on biwiring in the first place? Was it because of direct experience or based upon what you read and heard? Biwiring has been a controrversial technique for many years. From this thread there does not seem to be a consensus.

Thanks, Sparky

[GregLett]

When you are getting into the hobby, that's the first thing you are told. After hearing that over and over again I was sold. When i build my first system I was
unable to buy two pairs of the cable I wanted. My cousin was so adamant about me bi-wiring he purchased the second pair for me. I did notice a difference for the better, using two pairs of cables verses, one pair and the
factory jumpers.

After doing allot of reading, about bi-wiring, and listening to the different arguments, I decided to try things for myself, which lead to the conclusion
I stated before.

Bottom line, you have to try things for yourself. I have proven to myself that running two pairs of cables(unless you are bi-amping) is a waste of $$.

[Pieter]

From this thread there does not seem to be a consensus.

Sparky, you ought to know even were you to spread your net wider than this forum that you'd never see the issue resolved in the definitive.

[garyandroes]

Hello . About biwireing I have been thinking of doing the same line klipsch for rb 35 . I have not tried it nor will I give a opinion until I do . By the way my name is Gary and I am new to the forum . I was this weekend going to bi my speakers. question I do have is do you think the quality of wire cable is possibly the difference it could make ? I personally have a little problem with spending more for almost as much for cable has four speakers . I don't know about you but that seems to me to be a little backwards but I know not to get off the subject and I want that cables did make a difference when I went from cheap to ok wire cable . Steve harms of fortcollins Colorado owns this is own business tells me do not buy monster . Has bad pending and says way way over priced .I know that klipsch wires at least my speakers top line monster . Both single and bi our strung monster . I've only been building my system about a year or so I have only klipsch and denon. but that is not subject ) right now I am contemplating bi wiring , and if I do it the way has been suggested to me by some it will cost the four or $500.00 . That kind of hurts a little
thanks gary

[GregLett]

Gary,
I would start by trying short jumpers made from the same type of cable that you currently have.that's a lot easier on the wallet. Youshould hear an improvement.

[Karma]

Sparky, you ought to know even were you to spread your net wider than this forum that you'd never see the issue resolved in the definitive.

HI,
Yes Peiter, I think you are right. OTH, where else can we hear such a large body of audio conscious people expound on the subject?

As an electronics technical person, I cannot intellectually justify biwiring. I flat do not understand why biwiring works. Maybe, in some cases, it doesn't. But my ears tell me differently. In audio matters, I have learned to follow my ears rather than my brain. My ears tell me that biwiring works at least in the limited number of cases I have heard.

I would like to interject a couple of comments based upon my experience.

1. The better the system, the more obvious the benefits of biwiring. This doesn't hold true in all cases because some very fine speakers do not allow biwiring. For example, full range electrostatics such as I have in my main system (Martin Logan CLSllA's).
2. Biwiring benefits are at best subtle. When I hear folks expounding major improvements due to biwiring I think they are overstating their case or the improvemens are due to other system changes.
3. Cables also offer subtle differences. Notice I did not say "improvements". I have researched cables extensively over the years and, in fact, designed my own, both speaker and interconnects. I use my own designs in my systems. While doing the research I learned that cables tend to be highly system specific. What sounds great on one system may sound only average on another, differntly composed, system. I don't think any one cable fits all applications or even a majority of them. I guess that's why we hear so many contradictory evaluations of cables. My cables were designed specifically for my systems and my tastes in sound. Do not expect to find easy answers. Only careful, critical listening will reveal your personal truth.

The question of cost always pops up. My only advise is to try to balance the costs. I think that careful selection of cables is a worthwhile effort. Just don't go crazy.

Oh, does the Cable Company still exist? This was an outfit where you could order cables of any brand or model, try them, then return or buy as you choose. It was a great way to try cables that were not locally available.

Please don't stop adding to this thread. I find your comments extremely interesting. Thanks. We are advancing science (?). :W

Take Care, Sparky

[Pieter]

Once again Sparky, bang on the money.

I, and I'm sure most others here would subscribe to:

I have learned to follow my ears rather than my brain.

Unfortunately it mucks things up when you hear a change and then attempt to ascribe this to some or other scientific principle when the two don't stroke. You're left to trial and error, hit and miss, love it or fiddle and fix it, if you can.

How much in audio is actually built this way, at least in the final auditioning stage?

[jclyle]

if you're looking for the Cable Company, I think www.usedcable.com is where to go...



you can buy cables & return them if less than 30 days. the only catch is when you return them you dont get your money back, just credit toward future purchases. its still not a bad way to go, if you dont have access to a good hifi store in your town, its better than buying & selling a bunch of cables on audiogon until you find what you like...

[toddmorr]

HI Todd,
You changed two things at the same time. This is not a good experimetal technique from which to draw conclusions. It's nice that you improved your sound but how can you know whether the improvement was due to the new speaker wires or biwiring? Maybe you don't care but we do. At least I do.

Could you try to isolate the effects by removing the biwire and carefully listening to the system using one set of your new cables? Then, after you are very familiar with the sound of the single wire hookup, add the biwire and report the effects? You should make these changes to all the affected speakers at the same time.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks, Sparky

Good point. I went back, used the new cable but in a single wire hookup. The much stronger bass was still there, leading me to conclude the bulk of the change was due to the new cable rather than bi wiring. Then I did some switching between bi-wire and single wire, back and forth, both times using the monster z1. The difference was very minimal frankly, to the point where for me to say definitively I'd have to spend a lot more time comparing the two options.
A more interesting experiment (for me) would be to compare any good quality, thick gauge wire with the monster. I have a sneaking suspicion there is little if any difference.

[garyandroes]

Hay Gary back. you guys are really tearing it up now. just before I got back on line list of their and stared at my speakers for a while and guess what I got my role wire on the floor ready to go when I get it hooked up I will holler. it must make an improvement, to much work not to .but DrJrap and I hope I Spelled that right ,talked me into a couple of RF 7s for my front and replace my R. C. 35 R 7. But I will be bi wiring those to am going to get started , let you know how it sounds . What do you think about the doctor's opinion ? He has a lot of knowledge WOW .?talk to on the next go round see ya

GARY

[misterdoggy]

Well I bought Bi-wire speaker cable for about $700 each cable to bi-wire my 802D's.

Did I hear a difference between biwire and single wire. Sorry to report "NO".

Did I hear a difference between the current wire and previous wire "YES"

It seems that different wires sound different. Why I don't know, I only know that there is a difference and it might even be taste as to which one you prefer (of good quality of course)

If you've got the $$, and you believe all the hype, then you kind of feel obliged to offer your system the best you can.

Its like going up to the pump for gas and there are 4 quality gas pumps for your Mustang. You might see a difference, but maybe not.

[Karma]

HI Doggy,
There is no doubt that biwiring will give only subtile effects that may not be noticible due to other factors. An example: while researching cables it became clear to me that solid conductor wires from every cable manufacturer that used solid wire consistently sounded better than stranded runs. In fact many of the qualities that may be gained by biwiring often are completely countered with stranded wire. Stranded wire sounded a little harsh and time smeared thus lacking in ultimate resolution, both dynamicaly and time based.

Of course the problem is that one must use fairly heavy guage wire so that adequate current can be delivered to the speakers. Small solid concuctor wire will cause high voltage drops over the cable run to our power hungry speakers. Short runs help but still this is a factor that must be considered. This is not good for a lot reasons primarily centered around amplifier damping factor. This is much more important for solid state amps than tube amps but any amp likes to see cable impedances of zero ohms (not possible but you can get close).

Interconnects are a different case. Don't overlook that quality interconnects are just as important as speaker cables. Never forget we are putting together a SYSTEM which is only as good as its weakest link. Current delivery is not an issue so the cable designer has more freedom to implement wilder ideas. But I'm off the subject. Sorry. We are dicussing speaker cables.

Current delivery is the main reason speaker wire is so large and heavy. I solved the problem by using many small guage (26ga.) copper wires each insolated from the others. My cables use separate hot and ground cables. So my system, when it is biwired, needs four cables for each speaker. This can definitely turn into a wire jungle especially in an HT system with a center front channel. So far I have not tried to optimize the surround channels.

I'm not trying to sell my ideas. I just want to offer alternatives and food for thought. I am willling to say that my cables are extrodinarily clear and time aligned which allows the positive effects of biwiring to be heard. I don't have enough current (no pun ) experience with the huge numbers of cables out there to compare. My research is becoming dated.

Sparky

[misterdoggy]

Sparky,

We've have had the cable discussion here on the club many times. Always brings out the fierce opinions for both the pro and cons. I've got about $5000-$6000 invested in cables which is about 10% of the setup.

Some say "any" heavy gauge wire is as good as the most expensive wire and that there should be no reason one should sound better than the next.

This Club is sponsored by "CAT" cables which I have heard are excellent cables. We are not allowed to discuss cable brands so, all I will say is that I hear a difference between brand X and Y. Even if I don't always hear the difference I tend to go with popular opinion to be safe and I guess I can afford it playing it safe.

I think the difference is very subtle, less for biwiring than changing cable brands. I biwire anyhow.

I'd bi-Amp but it might be un-necessary for my humble abode.

Bruce

[garyandroes]

well not enough difference doing it my way by just doubling my current speaker cable and bi wire that way . Way more work and trouble then it seems to be worth . The only thing that I accomplished was that I kept my neighbor below me awake. too bad don't like her anyway . You know when and if you open back of the klipsch I see that it is wired with top notch monster. I wonder if that makes any difference ? You know they got us cornered and we just like any other addict ,got to have more . Well I'm going to keep piddleing around until at least I believe it sounds better . I forgot to say what I did use for cable . I use a fourteen gage professional studio wire . My mother works for Ace hardware and I got 250ft. for $40.00 the skin is very heavy . It's for in wall really . Ok I am going to go play some more now . I'll hit the thread Later ,come up with anything holler !!
GARY