Mcaa or Sound Meter

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  • comeup
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2005
    • 356

    Mcaa or Sound Meter

    Which do you think does a better job the auto mic setup or the sound meter.I just set a friends system up using the auto mic and I must say it worked pretty good. After I set it up I moved the rear speakers back a foot went back to auto setup and it picked up the one foot difference when doing the auto over again pretty amazing.
    Blake
  • Azeke
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2003
    • 2123

    #2
    Blake,

    I had a friend who auto-calibrated his Denon, then I came over with my trusty SPL Analog meter, and there was very little deviation, from the auto-calibration mode. The coolest thing about auto-calibration is you don't need a tape measure (for delay measurement), or a SPL meter, it still should be mounted on a tripod if possible. However, I was somewhat alarmed when he told me the microphone was optional, $65.00.

    You should remember that these calibrations serve as a baselines, and from there you can make minor manual adjustments. I.E. I have adjusted my center +2db and my sides +1db from reference. Just my $0.02 worth.

    Peace and blessings,

    Azeke

    Comment

    • Karma
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 801

      #3
      HI comeup,
      I have owned and used the Radio Shack SPL meters for about 30 years. I have always thought they were one of the really good buys in world of hi fi. They can be very useful tools but they are not perfect. After all, they cost less than $100 while the professional SPL meters cost thousands. My original RS meter cost $30 in 1975. I still use it. Maybe some day I'll spring for the new model but I prefer the analog display of the older model.

      The RS meter has two problems that may cause difficulty. First, their frequency response is not close to flat dropping off below 60Hz and above 10 kHz. Next, the calibration from range to range is not exact. Maybe the newer models are better but I doubt it.

      That said, I use the meter frequently. Perhaps most useful is calibrating equipment auditions thus maintaining equal volume levels between different tests, equipment and listening environments. I have also found the meter useful for setting up crossover frequencies on the active crossovers in a classical bi-amped arrangement.

      When I set my new bedroom HT system up, I bought a Denon 3805 for its processor, rear channel amps, and a terrific feature set. I also bought the calibration mic for $30. It was a demo and my dealer was trying to get rid of it because no one was using it.

      I must say that for channel levels balance, the Auto Cal works really well in my system. As my system has changed and grown, I have used Auto Cal often. l have found that I modify the settings a little but the Auto Cal provides levels cal that are very close to right. This is the feature I have most confidence in. The RS meter works equally well, except for the low bass, but is much more difficult to use. Winner: Denon.

      For room equalization, I have more mixed feelings. Here, Denon imposes their ideas of a proper room sound based upon the calibration values. I'm still playing with this function but, so far, I prefer to run the system flat but this is not my final judgment. The RS meter is almost useless for equalization adjustments. One needs an audio frequency spectrum analyzer for the data which Auto Cal provides. Winner: Denon

      For the subwoofer cal, Auto Cal far exceeds the RS SPL meter. Here is where the real problems with the meter shows up most. Winner: Denon

      The RS meter is no help for setting speaker distances. Winner: Denon

      As you can see, I think the Denon Auto Cal feature is a real winner. It is not perfect but it will get you into the ballpark. Without the feature, system cal is very difficult.

      Sparky

      Comment

      • comeup
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2005
        • 356

        #4
        Originally posted by Karma
        HI comeup,
        As you can see, I think the Denon Auto Cal feature is a real winner. It is not perfect but it will get you into the ballpark. Without the feature, system cal is very difficult.

        Sparky


        Sparky


        funny that both of you mentioned Denon thats what I was using when setting my friends up I'm very impressed with it, wonder if I upgrade my B&K Ref 50 S1 to S2 would it have this feature I love it. Probably won't.
        Blake

        Comment

        • Chris D
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Dec 2000
          • 16877

          #5
          I use two things--when calibrating my system, my Parasound C1 pre/pro has an "auto-calibration" feature with an available microphone and cord that plugs into the front of the unit. It's very accurate and easy for both levels and distance, and as a matter of fact, it seems to be MORE accurate than physical measurements for distance of the sub specifically. Parasound has a great discussion of this in their manuals.

          Other than that, I use my Radio Shack analog SPL meter, which, like Sparky, I've owned for years and years.

          I've just started to go further into calibration and EQ, especially of my subwoofer, using the RS SPL meter, cables, my laptop, and the Room EQ Wizard. Really interesting. Actually, we've been talking about it here in HTGuide if you haven't seen the thread:



          I think everybody's learning on this one.
          CHRIS

          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
          - Pleasantville

          Comment

          • comeup
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2005
            • 356

            #6
            Nice system that you have Chris
            Blake

            Comment

            • ThomasW
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 10934

              #7
              If you want reasonable cost and accuracy then a real test microphone like the $50 Behringer ECM-8000 or the identical $40 Nady CM-100 are the best buys. Both these require a mic preamp with phantom power ~$60.

              When paired with an appropriate duplex soundcard, and software (freeware is available) one has a very accurate measurement system.

              I'm playing with a Behringer DEQ2496. It has a auto EQ function, and isn't system dependent. After some more experimentation with the AutoEq function, I'll post a write-up about it.

              IB subwoofer FAQ page


              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

              Comment

              • Karma
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2005
                • 801

                #8
                HI Thomas,
                There is a real advantage to buying a, for example, Denon Mic for a Denon product. There is no such thing as a mic with a flat response. The only ones that are close costs thousands of dollars and even they are not that close.

                So how are we to get flat response from a $60 mic? There is only one way: an equalization curve that is built into the product, Denon in this case. Using an off brand, meaning not from the same manufacturer, the receiver/processor will apply the wrong equalization curve to the unknown mic. Better to stick with the same manufacturer.

                Trust me. $60 will not buy a genuine calibraton microphone.

                Sparky

                Comment

                • ThomasW
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 10934

                  #9
                  There is a real advantage to buying a, for example, Denon Mic for a Denon product.
                  I think you missed the point of my post. No one is advocating using a Behringer mic for some mfgr's built-in EQ.
                  Trust me. $60 will not buy a genuine calibraton microphone.
                  I'm not exactly a babe in the woods regarding this topic...:wink: So here's how it works. We compared mutiple samples of the Behringer ECM-8000 to a (calibrated) $5000 Laboratory Grade B&K 4133 mic. And guess what? No significant differences except at the high and low extremes of spectrum. And even then, the differences were only a couple dB max.

                  FYI, if one is so inclined, for $40 one can get a cal file for any microphone. But the nice thing is that the sample to sample variation on the Behringer' is so close one really doesn't need a cal file for home audio.

                  BTW, the point of my post was to provide information about creating a 'reasonably' accurate stand-alone measurement system independent of the playback equipment. That's the reason I posted about using a soundcard and appropriate software. This system makes using a RS SPL meter laughable. And that was a part of the title of this thread....

                  Cheers
                  Thomas

                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                  Comment

                  • Chris D
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Dec 2000
                    • 16877

                    #10
                    Thomas, I'm curious, if we have a new calibration correction data file for the Radio Shack SPL meter now, when the RS meter readings are corrected, are other microphones any more accurate?
                    CHRIS

                    Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                    - Pleasantville

                    Comment

                    • ThomasW
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 10934

                      #11
                      The RS meter isn't all that accurate even with the many corrections that are floating around the net. The low buck test mics are quite a bit more accurate, particularily at the extremes of the spectrum.

                      The PC software allows one to import .cal files if one has them. And the software also 'calibrates' the soundcards and allows the effects of the soundcard to be removed from the plots.

                      You have measured your soundcard and are using that file with your REQW, Right?

                      IB subwoofer FAQ page


                      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                      Comment

                      • Chris D
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Dec 2000
                        • 16877

                        #12
                        Yup, I've loaded two cal files, one for the souncard generated by REQ looping the input to output, and the other for the RS SPL meter. There's a new one out for the meter that's supposed to be better than the old "standard" model out there.
                        CHRIS

                        Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                        - Pleasantville

                        Comment

                        • whoaru99
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 638

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Chris Dotur
                          There's a new one out for the meter that's supposed to be better than the old "standard" model out there.
                          Where may I find this new RS cal file/correction factor table?
                          There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:

                          ----JAFFE'S PRECEPT

                          Comment

                          • ThomasW
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 10934

                            #14
                            From John Mulcahy the author of Room EQ Wizard

                            RS Analog Meter calibration data

                            10 -27.00
                            11 -24.15
                            12 -21.91
                            13 -20.13
                            14 -18.61
                            15 -17.33
                            16 -16.15
                            17 -14.92
                            18 -13.85
                            19 -13.01
                            20 -12.38
                            21 -11.66
                            22 -10.79
                            23 -10.00
                            24 -9.33
                            25 -8.80
                            26 -8.41
                            27 -7.99
                            28 -7.50
                            29 -6.99
                            30 -6.50
                            31 -6.03
                            32 -5.60
                            33 -5.23
                            34 -4.89
                            35 -4.58
                            36 -4.29
                            37 -4.04
                            38 -3.83
                            39 -3.64
                            40 -3.46
                            41 -3.31
                            42 -3.16
                            43 -3.01
                            44 -2.88
                            45 -2.74
                            46 -2.60
                            47 -2.46
                            48 -2.35
                            49 -2.26
                            50 -2.21
                            51 -2.18
                            52 -2.15
                            53 -2.11
                            54 -2.04
                            55 -1.98
                            56 -1.95
                            57 -1.92
                            58 -1.88
                            59 -1.84
                            60 -1.80
                            61 -1.77
                            62 -1.73
                            63 -1.71
                            64 -1.71
                            65 -1.72
                            66 -1.70
                            67 -1.67
                            68 -1.64
                            69 -1.60
                            70 -1.56
                            71 -1.52
                            72 -1.47
                            73 -1.41
                            74 -1.34
                            75 -1.26
                            76 -1.19
                            77 -1.12
                            78 -1.07
                            79 -1.02
                            80 -0.98
                            81 -0.94
                            82 -0.89
                            83 -0.85
                            84 -0.80
                            85 -0.75
                            86 -0.71
                            87 -0.66
                            88 -0.62
                            89 -0.59
                            90 -0.55
                            91 -0.52
                            92 -0.50
                            93 -0.47
                            94 -0.43
                            95 -0.40
                            96 -0.36
                            97 -0.34
                            98 -0.32
                            99 -0.30
                            100 -0.27
                            101 -0.25
                            102 -0.23
                            103 -0.20
                            104 -0.17
                            105 -0.14
                            106 -0.11
                            107 -0.07
                            108 -0.03

                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                            Comment

                            • Chris D
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Dec 2000
                              • 16877

                              #15
                              You can also download the data as a text file that will directly import to the REQ Wizard here;

                              newrs.cal
                              CHRIS

                              Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                              - Pleasantville

                              Comment

                              • dyazdani
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Oct 2005
                                • 7032

                                #16
                                Originally posted by ThomasW
                                I'm playing with a Behringer DEQ2496. It has a auto EQ function, and isn't system dependent. After some more experimentation with the AutoEq function, I'll post a write-up about it.
                                Sometimes I wish I would have bought one instead of the FBQ2496. What I have fits the bill though so I shouldn't be complaining.
                                Danish

                                Comment

                                • ThomasW
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 10934

                                  #17
                                  I haven't had the opportunity to play with the DEQ's AutoEq function. It requires that I fab up a new set of cables. Also I'm not a fan of AutoEQ. I think think of it as a 'work around' or bandaid fix, since it's fundamentally impossible for it to take into consideration several important variables regarding room EQ . That's being said I will check out what's build into the Behringer and see if it's worth bothering with. For me the primary benefit of the DEQ is it's very flexible and powerful manual EQing options.

                                  I'll add this LINK to the Acoustisoft Demo room page so people can get some idea of what's actually involved in optimizing a room for the best quality sound. This is by no means the definitive means to this end, it's just the easiest place on the net to get an overview of the whole process.
                                  Last edited by ThomasW; 14 March 2006, 12:26 Tuesday.

                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                  Comment

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