Receiver or Preamp / Processor Question

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  • PGAWest
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 4

    Receiver or Preamp / Processor Question

    Hello everyone - I'm new to the forum; not sure if this is the right place to post. I'm basically a newbie and pretty clueless in the home theater field, so I apologize in advance if what I'm posting is somewhat remedial.

    I'm looking for advice on a new receiver or preamp/processor. In addition to the equipment mentioned below, I also have an Adcom GFA-545 that isn't currently being used. I'm not looking to spend a fortune, but I do want a quality piece. At this time, I'm only looking to upgrade the receiver or preamp/processor component of my system.

    The preamp/processor idea originates from me thinking I can use some of my existing componentry. If this doesn't make sense, my feelings won't be hurt if someone speaks up to the contrary.

    Also, the room is about 20' x 24'.


    Here is my current (antiquated) setup:

    Hitach rear projection TV with S-video and composite inputs
    Panasonic F-65 DVD player with progressive scan
    Carver Dolby Prologic DPL-20 surround sound processor
    Harmon Kardon PA5800 5-channel amplifier
    Yamaha C-4 preamplifier
    DCM Time Frame TF-350 main speakers
    NHT SC-1 Center Speaker
    Advent Marbl II rear channel speakers
    Velodyne DSL-R 3750 subwoofer

    Thanks in advance for replies.
  • aud19
    Twin Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2003
    • 16706

    #2
    If the processor's what you're looking to upgrade first, I'd wait to see what's shown at CES later this month before making any hard and fast decisions. Also a budget would be helpfull when we get to the point of making suggestions Otherwise I'll just say the Bryston :P

    Oh and welcome to HTG :T
    Jason

    Comment

    • David Meek
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 8938

      #3
      Hi Jim, welcome to The Guide! :welcome:

      There's nothing remedial you can ask. We ALL started out at the same knowledge level at some point.

      I'm assuming from your components list you want a multi-channel pre/pro and not a 2-channel, correct? If so, look at the NAD T163. NAD has a reputation of excellent sound quality and definitely bang-for-the-buck. If this isn't one that interests you, just let us know - and why. The "why" will help us with later suggestions.
      .

      David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

      Comment

      • PGAWest
        Junior Member
        • Dec 2005
        • 4

        #4
        Many thanks for the replies!

        I'm looking to spend something less than about $750. I wanted to try to use my existing amplifier(s) if possible. Hence, my initial thought was to buy a preamp / processor; however, it seems that may not be possible within my budget.

        Comment

        • aud19
          Twin Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2003
          • 16706

          #5
          Well you could likely find a used one from the likes of Rotel, Nad, Outlaw etc in that price range, ESPECIALLY with CES coming up, there may be a decent amount of current generation pre/pro's people will be dumping to get next generation ones with things like HDMI, room correction etc But new to stay with a pre you'll have to up that budget. $750 will barely geting you in on the "decent" mainstreem receivers unfortunately.
          Jason

          Comment

          • David Meek
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 8938

            #6
            Don't give up Jim. Outlaw makes a pretty good processor at that price point. Check out their Model 970 and see what you think. Admittedly, you won't get Conrad-Johnson-type performance but it doesn't cost $16K either.
            .

            David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

            Comment

            • PGAWest
              Junior Member
              • Dec 2005
              • 4

              #7
              Thanks, David.

              Does it make better sense for me to go the preamp/processor route as opposed to the receiver route? Will my HK compliment the Outlaw?

              Comment

              • David Meek
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 8938

                #8
                I believe so to both questions.

                Generally speaking, a separate pre/pro and amp will outperform a similarly priced receiver - separate power supplies, separation of heat buildup, less convoluted internal layout, etc. Also, the Outlaws - from what I've read - don't add a great deal of coloration to their output sound, so one should let you hear what you are used to hearing from the HK.

                Another decent thing about Outlaw is their return policy. It's a 30-day full price refund, including your initial shipping. All you are out is the return shipping cost.

                FWIW, I'm not affiliated with them in any way, nor am I an Outlaw owner. :blink:
                .

                David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                Comment

                • comeup
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2005
                  • 356

                  #9
                  What about an Lexicon DC-1 Digital Controller for around 500$ I see them online all the time. They cost 4995.00 new about six or seven years ago. A 4 series has THX, Dolby Digital EX, DTS and Lexicon's music & movie logic which in my opinion is better than any DSP modes out there. Last year I upgraded from Lexicon DC-1 to B&K Ref 50 that has alot more features, but in DD and DTS the Lexicon sounds just as good if not better. I see them on Ebay all the time. As mentioned before a used high end pre amp is a cheap and good way to start.


                  Good Luck searching

                  peace to all
                  Blake

                  Comment

                  • Shane Martin
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Apr 2001
                    • 2852

                    #10
                    The DC1 doesn't have analog bypass which is a big knock for me.

                    If you wish to keep it below $750 then the Outlaw is the only game in town if you wish to stick to new seperates. You could save up a few hundred more and get the Sherwood P965 which has more features and is better than the 990. The SNAP EQ Room Correction being the biggest feature of the bunch and the software upgradability being the 2nd.

                    I wouldn't necessarily wait until CES which is the first week in January BTW, because it is unlikely that anyone will come out with a pre pro that cheap.

                    AV123.com was rumored to have a new one around that price but I haven't seen anything lately but granted I have not been checking.

                    Comment

                    • LikeCoiledSteel
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2004
                      • 210

                      #11
                      Hi PGA,
                      Welcome. Since you already have seperate amps (HK, Adcom) it is a no-brainer to go with a preamp, forget the receiver idea. I second the Outlaw recommendation. I currently use a 950 and love it. They can be found used for less than $500.00. I also once had an HKPA5800 for 4 years. It is a nice amp for home theater use but I did not like it as much for music.
                      Since you have the Adcom also, you can always bi-amp your system. The Adcom sound tends to be a bit more laid back than the HK. I use an older Adcom now for surround duty. Check out Outlaw.
                      Steel

                      Comment

                      • comeup
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2005
                        • 356

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Shane Martin
                        The DC1 doesn't have analog bypass which is a big knock for me.


                        Shane what is analog bypass? just trying to learn something here. I remember a bypass mode on the Lexicon which was a two channel mode. Some of the technical stuff sometimes throws me off.
                        Blake

                        Comment

                        • David Meek
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 8938

                          #13
                          Bypass is a mode that keeps the signal on the shortest, cleanest path possible. In other words, the purest signal. This generally means that it doesn't go into the digital domain for any processing at all. Being a bit of a purist, I only listen to 2-channel music using Bypass on my RX-V1.
                          .

                          David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                          Comment

                          • Shane Martin
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Apr 2001
                            • 2852

                            #14
                            Bypass also means bypassing the internal dacs keeping the signal analog in nature. Alot of processors like my friends' Sony 9000ES converts it to digital and that is a conversion that causes issues for alot of audiophiles.

                            Comment

                            • PGAWest
                              Junior Member
                              • Dec 2005
                              • 4

                              #15
                              Very interesting input; many thanks to everyone. My learning curve is steep at this point, but I find this information very interesting.

                              Comment

                              • comeup
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2005
                                • 356

                                #16
                                Not long ago I thought using rca was analog and coax and optical were digital. So any time you use dacs your not getting a true analog signal, but going through some kind of conversion.


                                I assume the direct mode on my B&K Ref 50 is a true analog path.
                                Blake

                                Comment

                                • Shane Martin
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Apr 2001
                                  • 2852

                                  #17
                                  direct mode on the B&K would be a true analog path. The afformentioned Lexicon doesn't have that option. I think the MC1 had a work around but I know the newest Lexicons allow it in the traditional sense.

                                  Comment

                                  • alebonau
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Oct 2005
                                    • 992

                                    #18
                                    I found the Harman Kardon AVR 630/635 to make a very good processor. You just take the signal of its pre-outs straight to your harman 5800 power amp will work a treat.

                                    I posted a review on it as an avr and pre/pro

                                    It is a 7.1 avr and with pretty reasonable amplification on board will also give you the option to use it to power your surrounds leaving the power amp you have to even bi-amp your mains/centre.

                                    the beauty of going the inexpensive avr route is you still get pretty reasonable processing and not spending up too much on this side of things given this side of things is more prone to require upgrades if chasing newer processing or features


                                    Here is a copy of the review:-

                                    Well my avr-pre pro search is over !

                                    I’ve been playing with the Harman Kardon AVR630 pretty heavily for the last weekend and very happy that I’ve finally found what I’m looking for.

                                    Following is a review of the HK630 and my impressions and experience with it over the last weekend both as a pre-pro coupled to a multichannel pwr amp and also as an AVR on its own. My home demo of this included :
                                    Part 1 - as an AVR using my usual test DVDs, hi-res discs & everyday digital TV viewing.
                                    Part 2 - coupled to the Elektra theatre 7 multichannel (for which I will post a subsequent review) including watching one dvd movie followed by 2 other movies live on TV.
                                    Part 3 (as an AVR) watching Minority Report in HD on Ch90 in DD5.1

                                    My summary conclusions were that I am very impressed !. This is an extraordinary avr on its own and a very good pre-pro with great features and excellent useability. This comment is based on my in store demos and auditions with the denon 3805, Nad 163 & Rotel 1068 & 1098 and my own HK AVR65 that I’ve owned for a few years now.

                                    The equipment:
                                    Denon 2900 dvd/universal disc.player
                                    Harman Kardon HT amp (65Wx5) driving the centre and rears.
                                    Richter Centre and Bipole rears
                                    Musical Fidelity Pre and two 150W mono blocks driving (L&R)fronts
                                    Mission fronts
                                    Speaker cables - linear crystal(centre), Vandenhul(fronts) & cable talk flat(rears)
                                    Interconnects - Jaycar response for multichannel and to connect upto my 2ch pre

                                    Acknowledgements
                                    Many thanks to all forum members who have contributed in my search, to all the audio dealers who have helped with countless hours of advice and many hours of demos.

                                    The trial gear
                                    The Harman Kardan AVR630


                                    In looks very different to the previous all black HK look. Now two tone. Black glass for the top and brushed aluminium for the bottom. The volume knob has same brushed trim to the front of it but is hollow. Inside of the hollow volume is blue lit. The display has blue text against the black glass of the top of the unit. The display can be dimmed and totally turned off and the blue lighting of the volume knob can be turned off if not to your liking.

                                    In styling I think its very smart looking. In my setup the brushed aluminium is a perfect match for my denon 2900. And the black glass front makes a great backdrop for the blue text of the display and the brushed aluminium volume knob. The bonus with the two tone effect is this amp will easily visually match up with either gold/silver or black components.

                                    Also what is good news is in build it appears pretty much the same as my previous HK avr but another 4kg heavier (20kg in all). A cooling fan is buried deep inside the amp and draws air up a aluminium heatsink tunnel that runs all the way up the middle of the amp. It still runs pretty warm by the way even if not running the internal amps.

                                    Check the HK site for specs and further info. Although the specs claim separate power supplies for front and rear speakers. There is only one power supply (no doubt with separate windings for front and rear speakers - but it is a big power supply making the amp as heavy as what it is. As per HK tradition it is a high current amp and puts out 50A of current which is a 25% increase on my old HK AVR. Also spec improvements over my avr is another 10w of power and 7 channels rather than the 5ch of the avr65. And then offcourse there is the much newer processing including Lexicons Logic 7, prologic IIx, dts Neo 6 and everything else under the sun including dolby headphone, the best bass management available with multiple settings that can be set globally or independently for each type of processing, each input and for each speaker and at different cross over points for each.

                                    The remote is pretty amazing. With built in spl meter and display and learning capability.

                                    Other bit of flexibility is the bulk of all settings can be made using the avr’s display and can be made on the fly while watching programs onscreen. Additional to this is the ability to hook up to the AVR630 via a serial cable to a laptop or pc – see a screen shot allowing full control of every feature on the AVR via the PC and also enabling software and DSP upgrades. Before procedding futher I updated on my avr630 with the latest software & DSP available from the HK website. The HK630 also has A-bus ability but I have no familiarity with what is possible with this.

                                    The material:
                                    Run Lola Run - title and opening scene using the DD5.1 soundtrack – this movie in the initial opening has good demonstration of low sub bass, spatial information, test of soundstage, projection of sounds, sound pans and vocals.

                                    Morcheeba, Brixton to Beijing concert. DD5.1 track. Track 4 Tape Loop. Good for testing atmospherics, Vocals, a bit of sub plus good workout for the mains & surrounds with the concert and audience.

                                    Master and commander chapter 4 – in DTS the scene with Canon balls is incredible test of sheer impact of a system, bass & sub setup, surround capability and sheer dynamics.

                                    Chicken run & Wedding singer – live of digital feed from teac dvb800 HD stb using PLIIx, DTS Neo6 & Logic 7 decoding off the stereo sound track good test of surround processing, vocals, music and detail capabilities.

                                    Minority Report – Live of CH90 in HD with DD5.1 off the teac DVB800. Very good test of dynamics, detail, vocals and some good tests of creating atmosphere and plenty of low bass.

                                    Part 1 - as an AVR using my usual test DVDs, hi-res discs & everyday digital TV viewing.

                                    OK after setting levels using the test tones in the 630, I started off with my standard test discs. Morcheeba – has the BIG “being there” sound I’m looking for. OK missing a bit of the rawness of my old HK but a very clean open sound. Sound is a bit more refined to the old HK sound I’m used to – which perhaps is a good thing. Swapping to Master and commander ch4 - Vocals are most definitely clearer, plenty of clean clear detail. I’m hearing stuff I’ve enver heard before – like the whirring sound with the canon balls flying through you. Excellent stirring of sound around the room. Swapped to run lola run opening – no question better clearer more distinct stiring. Definitely clearer vocals and effects.

                                    Next up Diana krall SACD – definitely cleaner sound infact the whole noise floor appears lower. Sound is much smoother than I remember with my old HK, lot less forced.

                                    Also did some general TV Friday night viewing including BB, etc. The 630 even on just commercials and general digital TV viewing is an incredible upgrade from my old AVR. Excellent of space, clean detail and a more enveloping sound. I am very impressed with logic 7 in its cinema mode – gives very good clean vocals and surround effects/decoding off the stereo pcm feed from my teac dvb800. Also tried PLII and dts neo 6 and also suitably impressed but jees Logic 7 really makes you feel like your right in the middle of it all and that’s without me even having 7 speakers - just 5.

                                    Part 2 - coupled to the Elektra theatre 7 multichannel (for which I will post a subsequent review) including watching one dvd movie followed by 2 other movies live on TV on Saturday night.

                                    Rather than double post here please refer to my subsequent review on the Elektra for more on this one – what I will say here is I am very impressed on the pre-pro capabilities of the avr630 and really think its more than capable of providing the Elektra a clean clear sound and effects and all it needs to do its thing.

                                    Part 3 (as an AVR) watching Minority Report in HD on Ch90 in DD5.1
                                    After returning the Elektra Sunday afternoon sat down to Sunday night viewing and checked out minority report in HD with DD5.1 sound.

                                    Again a very open clean big sound. Heaps of detail. Quite enveloping. The low bass and detail of the opening and he rest of the movie was bloody excellent – I’ve watched the dvd many times on this one. Excellent clean/clear detail – the bit with the spiders looking for tom cruise when he has his eyes bandaged was pretty amazing. The sound of the spiders walking around were quite distinct. And the sound of their rays/beams they sent out were flashing all over the room when they flashed across the screen – do not remember that with the DVD.

                                    Some conclusions
                                    The AVR630 provides heaps of detail. Excellent steering a quantam leap up from my old system. And the best part is I’m hearing details with this AVR and also as a pre-pro that I have never ever heard in my system before.

                                    Overall it has a BIG sound - excellent for HT. The sound is not as hard edged or coarse or forwad as the HK sound of old but theres still plenty of energy there to keep things exciting and interesting.

                                    As a pre-pro it did an excellent job and made a very good pairing with the Elektra multichannel amp and my speakers. It has a kind of sound very suited to HT, upbeat exciting and with heaps of detail but not as forward or hardedged as the HK’s of old – which is probably a good thing as you can use it for many hours of viewing without it getting on edge.

                                    I would highly recommend anyone in the market for an AVR to check this one out. Its styling is distinct if your looking for something different. The overall sound is a personal preference thing so may or may not be to your liking.

                                    As far as pricing it is currently incredible value given the avr635 is due out shortly (to provide all but marginal improvements) and you are likely to find this $2,000 rrp AVR for less than the $1,500 special prices that are being advertised. What is even more amazing is this avr had a retail in the UK of 1,000 pounds.

                                    For me this is something great I’ve stumbled across – a bit like the denon 2900 I bought a few months ago. Just like the 2900 here is yet another opportunity to “catch a falling star” – grab one guys before theyre all gone !

                                    Where to from here ….
                                    Well I grabbed one at the incredible price its at and will be pretty happy about it for a while I think. Now just need to get a couple of rear speakers out to be yet a bit more blown away about it all.
                                    Last edited by Clive; 29 December 2005, 21:21 Thursday. Reason: Link removed
                                    "Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."

                                    Comment

                                    • Glen B
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Jul 2004
                                      • 1106

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by PGAWest
                                      Thanks, David.

                                      Does it make better sense for me to go the preamp/processor route as opposed to the receiver route? Will my HK compliment the Outlaw?
                                      About three years ago, I went from a Harman Kardon PA5800 amp and Adcom preamp-processor to an Onkyo multichannel receiver and have not looked back since that time. In my system the Onkyo receiver bettered the HK amp in treble and midrange clarity and had a more effortless sound. With the HK amp, there was a noticeable drop in the overall volume level whenever I switched from 2-channel to multichannel sound. There was no such change with the receiver. My room size is 18' X 15'.

                                      My systems:


                                      Comment

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