Newbie needs help selecting receiver/speakers

[kid320]

Hey,

Okay, so I went to a place called Overture in Delaware today. They are in a transition between Energy to B&W, so they are selling their floor model energy's off. The salesman said he could give me 2xC-7's as the main, 1 C-C1 as the center, and 2xCR-3's as the rears for $1,250 total. Because it is Delaware, there is no sales tax. I think that is an incredible price, but I would like to see what you think. I also asked about the C-R3's as the surround sound. He gave me a price of $1,475 with them. He said he didn't reccommend the CR-3's for me because of where my surround speaker will be mounted (to the side and back about 2 feet in the upper corners of my room). I like the CR-3's better, and he said there was a bi-pole/di-pole switch on them, so that would make them okay, but I do not know if it is worth the extra money.

I also tried out a set of B&W's. He showed me a CN-4 as my front, CNC as the center and the DS6's as my rears. He gave me a price of $1,995. I did hear a quality difference, but didn't think it was worth $250-$500 more.

I am going to do some research online and see how much I can get the same speaker set for. I am sure I can not beat that price, but what do you guys think about the Energy Set? What do you think I should choose as my surround speakers? Is what he said about the CR-3's not being good for my mounting situation true?

I also went to best buy and tweeter, as I said I would do. Best buy had surround systems hooked up, along with the bass from the car audio section, the intercom, the stores music and everything else playing, so I took it for what it was worth and went to Tweeter. I was expecting a little bit more out of Tweeter. Every one of their rooms was playing some music. When I presented my own CD to the salesman, he said he couldn't play it for me. So, I asked about the DVD and he said "Ohh, no, we don't have any of our sound rooms set up for movies, just music." They had no surround sound speakers, and when I asked to listen to something other than the demo speakers, he refused to hook them up for me. So, I looked at the price of what was playing and took that for what it was worth. A full speakers set would have cost me about $1750 there, and they were polk audio. There were 10 speakers lined up, and I could point out exactly the speaker the sound was coming from. Not good. So, now I know what you all are talking about. Now I can justify spending that kind of money without chewing my tongue and biting my lip (well, not hard anyway).

Let me know what you think, they are floor models and I would like to get a word back to this guy so he can hold them for me ASAP.

Thanks again

[aud19]

I'd say that's a pretty good deal on the Energy's :P but I HIGHLY recommend getting the C-C3 centre, not the C-C1 if you can. I assume you meant C-3's for the $1250 price, not C-R3's...? How far is your seating position from the mounting location? If you're a decent distance (say +5' ...further, better) the C-3's should work fine, otherwise you may want to consider spending the extra $

If you have time, try to listen to other brands models though. I highly recommend it :T But those Energy's sure do make purrrrty sounds, don't they?

Did you take notice to what they're were using to power the Energy's and B&W's?

[kid320]

I did some research online and they are $100 cheaper online (before shipping). Once shipping is added in, they are about even. I am going to call the guy and let him know I am interested, but I found them for $100 cheaper online. If he could knock $100 off the price and/or add in a $50 Pair of Macro Mount speaker mounts for my rear speakers for free, I will let him box them up for me.

For $1250, I would be getting a pair of C-7's, a C-C1 and a pair of C-1's, which is probably what I am going to get.

For $1475, I would be getting a pair of C-7's, a C-C1 and a pair of C-R3's. I really don't know if the upgraded surrounds are worth it for what I need.

As far as mounting location's and placement for these speakers...
allow me to describe my room.

As I have said before, it is a 12x12 square. There are obvioulsly 4 walls with no extra corners or crevices, it is a perfect square. On the one wall, I have my futon bed in the center of the wall. Across from the bed I have my television, also centered. Directly to the right of that, I have my A/V equipment stacked on a night stand. I am going to put the left C-7 directly to the left of the TV (there is no other spot for it further out). I am not going to put the right C-7 directly next to the tv. I will put it to the right of my AV equipment, so that it is more in the corner. This will give me about 6.5 feet between the two front speakers. I am going to put my center speaker right smack on top of my television... centered between the 2 mains. From what I understand all of the front tweeters should be flush. I am not sure if I should angle the front speakers 30 degrees or not, like they reccomend.

Now to the rear speakers. Assuming my futon is in the sofa position, which is how I always watch movies anyway, the back wall of my room is about 2.5 feet behind my ears. Sitting in the center of the room, the right and left walls are both about 6 feet away. There is a closet door on that left wall in the back corner. So, my mounting options are limited. I cannot mount it any lower than the top corner without the rear speaker being in front of me. So, I was planning on using those Macro Mounts, mounting the speakers above the closet door (about 1/2" away from the ceiling) in the back corners of the room. I really dont think I have too much of a choice when it comes to the placement of these speakers. I could move them about a foot foward and aim them at the back wall, but I do not know if I will get much of a bouncing effect off of that back wall. What reccommendations would you have? Would it be worth it for me to upgrade the rear speakers to the better package?


EDIT: Yes, they do make some purdy sounds. That center speaker REALLY does a good job with the dialogue. I was impressed. He was using a Yamaha to power everything. It was an (obviously) newer model than mine, and I didn't see a wattage output, so I couldn't use that as a reference to look up the model. I think it was about a $800-$1100 receiver, to give you an idea. I want to get something better anyway, so that's good

[Shane Martin]

Given the speaker placement you are going with, I'd go with Direct Radiators rather than Bipole/Dipoles.

[aud19]

Given the speaker placement you are going with, I'd go with Direct Radiators rather than Bipole/Dipoles.

Yup...and on a good note it will save you a few hundred $$'s :T

Did he have a C-C3 centre channel there as well? I cannot stress how important a large centre is for modern movies. IMO the C-C3 is worth the extra couple hundred over the C-C1.

[Sim reality]

I'm just laughing because we have just observed the creation of another audiofile!

Just remember... After you "finish" upgrading... STOP LOOKING! Otherwise the upgrade bug will hit you again.

[aud19]

I'm just laughing because we have just observed the creation of another audiofile!

Just remember... After you "finish" upgrading... STOP LOOKING! Otherwise the upgrade bug will hit you again.

I know eh! :B That's why I wrote this on the last page:

You're in deep now! :twisted: :lol:

[kid320]

Done Upgrading? Come on now, does that ever really happen?

I called the store and the salesman wasn't working today, but I asked about the C-C3's. The store is in a transition between Energy and B&W speakers, so the Energy's he was going to sell me were some of the last ones he had in stock. So, they don't have any C-C3's, nor will any be coming. I was actually very impressed with the C-C1, and I think when he broke the pricing down, that one came out to be $200 even. thats $45 less than online, and $250 less then the C-C3 would cost me elsewhere (considering shipping).

Remember when I said I only wanted to spend $1000? :rofl: Oh, how young and careless I was back about... ohhhhhhh, 2 days ago.

I am going to talk to this guy and most likely order the C-C1. Perhaps if I really don't like it, I can unload it off of ebay and bite the bullet then, but I really don't think I will be unhappy with it, considering what I am upgrading from. The ones I have now need to be turned up for low, dialogue scenes in order to hear them and turned WAY down for heavy action sequences in order to stop the dishes from shaking off of the China cabinet.

Thank you for all of your help. Next, I am sure I will have wiring questions, which I might as well start to ask now. I work at a fire alarm company, and we have ALL KINDS of wire. I can get some 12, 14 or 16 gauge, 2 conductor, solid or stranded wire for free. Should I crimp banana jacks onto them? How do they connect?

Also, how am I supposed to connect a subwoofer properly. Right now it is running from my receivers SUB OUT jack via a RCA type cable. Is there a better way to hook it up?

Thanks again.

[Shane Martin]

Thank you for all of your help. Next, I am sure I will have wiring questions, which I might as well start to ask now. I work at a fire alarm company, and we have ALL KINDS of wire. I can get some 12, 14 or 16 gauge, 2 conductor, solid or stranded wire for free. Should I crimp banana jacks onto them? How do they connect?

You will likely get some catcables recommendatiosn but since you can get the 12 guage from work for very little or free, I'd go that route. You can avoid the crimp connectors if you want and go with the screw type bananas like I did. It saves you a big headache. I have some extras if you are interested. The Speakers will have 4 terminals which is for bi-wiring. To be honest save your money and don't bother but try it if you want.

Also, how am I supposed to connect a subwoofer properly. Right now it is running from my receivers SUB OUT jack via a RCA type cable. Is there a better way to hook it up?

Nope. Keep it as is.

[aud19]

Yup short of getting better quality versions of what you have now, you're good And if you can get decent quality 12 guage free, that's what I'd do If/when you do decide to upgrade your interconnects, I do highly recommend forum Sponsor Cat Cables as Shane mentioned :T

[aud19]

Oh and when you're ready to upgrade your receiver, talk to another forum sponsor,

[kid320]

Okay, so I did it.

$1,250 for a pair of C-7's, a C-C1 and a pair of C-1's. I also got him to throw in a pair of macro mount speakers mounts for free.

I am going to pick them up on monday when I am at work and a little closer to the store. At that point, I will have the proper speaker wire, the speakers, and the rear speakers mounts. Is there anything else I need to purchase that I am overlooking?

Once again, thanks for your help. I am sure I will be back with questions on how to hook everything up and where I should place it all.

Jeff ;x(

[aud19]

Congrats :T I'm sure you'll be much happier with the Energy's than your old gear :yesnod:

So how long until you upgrade the receiver...?

[Clive]

Congrats

So how long until you upgrade the receiver...?

Just when I thought it was over:rofl: :rofl:

SO HOW LONG JEFF?? Maybe that store has great deals on them too eh?

[Shane Martin]

Jeff,
If you don't already have an SPL meter and a copy of Avia, I would get those.

[kid320]

Sorry about not replying, I didn't receive emails like I normally do. That and... I have been staring longingly at my center channel speaker for the past few days.

I have some 12 gauge wire on order, but temporarily hooked the speakers up with 16 gauge. I would tell you what I said exclaimed I watched scene 29 of The Matrix, but I think that would be against the forum's rules. I haven't even hooked my subwoofer up yet because I am waiting on some furniture so I can clear a spot for it. The other day, I had The Fifth Element (superbit) on and it wasn't even that loud. Five minutes into the opera scene, my mother came barging into my room telling me to "turn that boom box down!" Ah, mothers... the ultimate test of speaker quality.

I watched Saw the other day (which has an incredible DTS soundtrack). In the first scene, when the lights are still out and your hear the person (behind the camera) say hello, I thought there was someone in my room. I had to pause the movie, turn the lights on and check behind me... even though there is a wall there. I knew it was coming from the movie soundtrack, but one part of my brain had to make sure.

Based on this, I would say yes, I am happy with the speakers. As far as upgrading the receiver goes, I am not too sure. Christmas is coming up, so it might not be until next Summer unless I get a big bonus from work, and not a year's subscription to the jelly of the month club.

Shane Martin - What would a SPL meter and a copy of Avia do for me?

I ordered a higher quality Subwoofer cable. The one I was using before was a really thin RCA-type cable. This one will be thicker. I do not know how much of a difference it will make, but I needed something longer anyway. There are a few setting on my woofer that I do not understand. There is a phase toggle switch that has two options... 0 or 180. Now, the woofer is going to be to the right side of my listening position, and I do not hear a difference between the two settings. There is also a LFE switch. I am not sure where I want that to. My options are LFE and normal. The manual makes it sound like this is some sort of bass filtering, but I am not too sure.

And now for the big question... how do I properly set my Crossover Frequency. My sub can go from 50-150Hz. I believe the manual for my receiver said that the cutoff frequency for the sub outputs was 90Hz. So, I would assume I want to keep it at or below 90. Is this correct? Also, my receiver has an option that asks where to send low frequency signals. I can choose "subwoofer" "main speakers" or "both". I had them set to both with my old speakers, but I am now thinking I should set it to subwoofer only so the main speakers can work on the higher frequency sounds. Is this the proper way to do it? BTW - My front speakers (C-7's) say they can handle 34-23Khz, the center channel (C-C1) is rated at 50-23Khz and the rear's (c-1's) are 53-23Khz.

Thank you once again for all of your help. ;x( It has been, and always will be appreciated.

[P-Dub]

I pretty much figured you'd be in HT nirvana for at least another week!

The SPL meter and Avia will help you calibrate your speaker and sub levels.

I took a quick look at your sub manual. For your situation it is recommended that you have the switch at the LFE position. (page 5) This will bypass the crossover frequency settings. I don't know if it wil bypass the level settings. If it doesn't I would have the levels cranked to the max. Don't worry, we will adjust the actual bass output at your receiver. The only connection should be the subcable from the receiver to the sub.

So in your Yamaha, make sure all the speakers are set to 'small'. The bass should be to set to "subwoofer". Now this is where the SPL meter and Avia come into play as you will now adjust the LFE level to be 6-10db higher than your mains. Start off with the LFE set closer to -20db and then adjust upward. The Avia disc comes with test tones and these tones will cycle from each speaker and with your SPL meter you can monitor that your levels are equal. Then there are seperate subwoofer test tones to adjust your sub. Doing the level adjustments by ear is not good enough.

Also, don't worry that you are setting your speakers to 'small', but you have some nice towers. This will help your receive better power your speakers.

When you get your new receiver, chances are you will have a different crossover than 90hz and you will have to do the calibration again.

[aud19]

Glad you're enjoying the new gear :T

Otherwise pretty much do everything Paul said Pick up a copy of AVIA (or Digital Video Essentials) and an SPL meter to calibrate your speakers with. Either disc will also allow you to optimize your display as well :T

Sounds like your receiver doesn't have an adjustable crossover so the 90Hz setting should work for now. When you upgrade, experiment with a crossover of between 60-80Hz and see which sounds better on bass heavier scenes.

[kid320]

I am in luck. I work for a fire alarm company, and we have to do DB readings in the buildings to make sure the horns are loud enough, so we have a couple of really good DB meters at the office that I can borrow.

I will order a copy of AVIA today. It looks a little better than the one that comes on the Toy Story dvd :W.

A little off the topic, but I just got a DVR from my cable company and it is AWESOME! I found a way to hook up a firewire cable to it and transfer shows into my computer, and therefore to a DVD. YEY! If you don't have one, I would strongly recommend it.

[aud19]

A little off the topic, but I just got a DVR from my cable company and it is AWESOME! I found a way to hook up a firewire cable to it and transfer shows into my computer, and therefore to a DVD. YEY! If you don't have one, I would strongly recommend it.

I've been trying to get one but my SP doesn't have a lease option and wants $700 for one :evil:

[kid320]

Aud19 - I COULD purchase the insurance on my box and have it *ahem* stolen from me.

I ordered that Avia disc, and it was comfirmed today that I would be able to borrow a DB meter from the office. I am just sitting here waiting for my UPS shipment to come which has all of my speaker wire and a few other things I have been waiting on.

[kid320]

A few months later...

I have finally crawled out of my hole after a few months of watching movies :W and yes, my speakers are awesome. I just wanted to follow up with you guys, and once again thank everyone for their help. Although my room is pretty small, it tends to blow people away. I calibrated my system with that Avia disc, and it sounds spectacular. Thanks.

I hate to bring up old threads, and of the mods would like me to, I will start a new thread for this... but I am now looking to sell off my yamaha receiver and to get a new one. First off, the receiver is a Yamaha HTR-5540. How much do you think something like that, in good condition would sell for on E-bay? $100? $200? I saw this deal on harmanaudio.com, and it looks like a pretty good deal to me. http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_br...7300-Z&status=

As I have said before, I love harmon kardon. Their dvd player sold me on their company, so I am a little biased towards them. Let me know if you think thats an okay deal, if if you have any suggestions. As always, you guys ROCK!

Thanks again.

[aud19]

Personally I'd wait for anything in the processing area (pre/pro's and receivers). With HDMI being updated and the HD versions of DD and DTS coming down the pipe, plus god knows what else they can think of in the next 6 months, you're better off waiting.

If you want improved performance now, use your Yamaha as a pre/pro and buy an amp from Outlaw, Rotel, Sherwood Newcastle etc. You'll get much improved sound and power at a minimal cost and be in a good position to update with a full fledged pre/pro in a year or so

[kid320]

I was also thinking about waiting a little bit... cool. Thanks aud19

[aud19]

No problem

By all means pull the trigger on an amp though :T :yesnod:

[P-Dub]

Does that Yamaha model even have any Pre-outs?

I'm in that situation. My Yamaha 595 has no pre-outs, so I need to do a larger upgrade. I would probably go with another receiver with pre-outs plus as many features as I could get to help the 'future proofing' if that is at all possible.

That's why I was recommending the Pioneer Elite model. I quite like it's feature set and the power is not a major concern.

I see the HK you are looking at is a very nice unit. I'm not familiar with them, but only know about them through their reputation as a quality product, maybe not all the bells and whistles, but excellent power output and good sounding. (Note that the 'good sounding' is a subjective assessment. What is good to one is crap to another.)