time to upgrade sub need some help

[willbrosk]

The upgrade bug has hit and it is time to for me to upgrade my sub. I currently have a 2 year old klipsch synergy series 100 watt 10inch sub that is woefully underpowered. It just does not produce enough or low enough frequencies for HT. I am looking at a sunfire mkIV and a definitive technology supercube 2. I like the Ideal of smaller sub that can be out of the way. Also I probably will eventually be using 2 subs. The current room is appr 20 by 20 with open back and vaulted ceilings( I know a challenge). This will only be the case for appr 1 year while im building my next house. At that time it will be going in a dedicated HT room 18x14(want room for pool table in the back). My question is: will these be overkill with 2700 and 1500 watt amps? Should I save some money and get a midrange earthquake. Also between the sunfire and def tech, which would you go and why(same price 700us I refuse to pay retail)

Thanks

Will

[gd]

Nothing against Sunfire or DefTech, but I'd go with neither... you pay a premium for that miniaturization... and risk subpar results in an admittedly tricky room.

Size does matter with a sub.

With $700 or so, would you consider a cylinder?... SVS and Hsu make high-value subs, sold online... the Hsu cylinder in particular can possibly be laid on its side if you have a spot in the room where that would work.

http://www.hsustore.com/tn1220-powered.html

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_cylinders.htm

[jimmyp58]

I owned the SuperCube 2 and found stunning results out of that 'small' sub. It would do you wonders.

What is your budget?

Jim

[avpower]

I have to put in my two cents for svs as well. I had the SUB upgrade bug one year ago. I looked and listened to several subs before I discovered svs at a friends house. He had raved about it and i was like yea, yea, who is svs. I listened to the 25-31 PC-plus and was so impressed with the musical effect of having the sound come from a whole speaker instead of just a point source on the floor. It is SO different than a box sub source. The clarity of this sub and its capacity enable you to do some neat things like reduce the workload on your front speakers - set them to small - and more of your bass will come from the unit that is designed to do bass - the Sub! You can then vary the crossover on a good Pre/Pro to what fits your home environment. Quite honestly, I don't even use half of the power in this sub. The system is tuned with the amp set at about 35-40%. These subs will literally rattle your home yet the clarity is never boomy and loud. The Avia sub test is awesome with the Ultra. I can't hear anything except various items in my house rattling as the sub frequency continues to drop. I am so glad I waited for the PC -Ultra sub. Note that these cylinders are not inconspicuous. They are signficant in both size and sound. I am not saying they are for everyone but you should definitely go the extra mile to check them out. You don't want to kick yourself later and have to do another sub upgrade next year!

[Chris D]

Heheheeee... I hear ya, avpower. I ended up buying TWO of the PC-Ultras. Last subs I ever should have to buy.

[BlazeMaster]

I have the PB12plus/2 and it's just awesome for movies. I just bought the new Matrix trilogy boxset just for the new transfer of my favorite episode 1. The scene where Neo and Morpheus was sparing in the training program and Morpheus' knee lands the ground, the impact sounds so clean with my sub, very nice.
Anyways, SVS are very popular on internet HT forums, but they're not the easiest sub to hide. My 12plus/2 is a twin 12 inch woofers weighing in at 100+ pounds, but it's worth every pound. Not that I'll ever need anymore bass, but if I have to "upgrade", I'd totally buy another one of these beasts with a heartbeat.

[Burke Strickland]

There are several brands and models of "cube" sub that are musical and authoritative with room-filling bass including Velodyne, Paradigm, Bag End and Vandersteen. SVS cylinder subs are great if you have the room and don't mind the huge cylindrical towers. SVS also makes cube subs, and I don't think they would make them if they thought anything was inherently wrong with a cube. Each design has tradeoffs (to get satisfactory performance from the cube means they have to design in some expensive features, while with the cylinder, a good design is going to be BIG).

If you have heard a cube that sounds like a point in the floor, it was either a bad design, or, more likely, poorly placed in the room. Even the best sub can sound anemic if it is in the valley of the nulls. Of course, if it was a single driver 10" or 12" cube without a lot of built in amplification, it may not have had the "guts" to do much. (I'm really talking 15" or 18" or multiple driver 12" cube sub when I say they can pump out the bass.)

As with any speaker purchase, it is a good idea to not only audition first if possible, but to also get full return privileges so you can try it out at home. That's one good thing about SVS -- they are very accomodating with returns if the model you purchase doesn't work out. While some local B&Ms -- specialty stores, not Circuit City -- will make similar arrangements for the products they carry, it isn't always as "automatic" a policy as it is with SVS, and might take "establishing a business relationship" (e.g., buying something and keeping it) before they are willing to loan stuff out

If I had to replace my current sub, I'd seriously consider SVS, having heard some impressive demos of them in several peoples' homes, but I would also take a serious look at (listen to) some of the competing brands "just to be sure". Who knows -- one of the others might be avialable in a local sale that would be hard to pass up.

That's how I got my current sub -- it was on sale locally for an "internet price" during a clearance sale and I've gotten the full support of the dealer both in delivery and setup, and in taking care of a problem that came up within a couple of months of purchase at no extra charge (including pick up from and return to my home) even though it had to go back to the factory for repair. (The problem has not recurred in the four years I've been using it since then).

The right sub is out there waiting for you... good luck!

Burke

[willbrosk]

Just wanted to leave a note saying I appreciate the advise. I will do my best to find some way to audition a svs, because of the praise both here and elsewhere that I have heard. My only problem with the svs may be my desire for sub 20k frequency. Only their highest end subs tend to produce these levels. I realize you cant here the levels, but I like to feel the base during a movie. My understanding is this aspect is accentuated by very low level frequencies

[Andrew Pratt]

My understanding is this aspect is accentuated by very low level frequencies

To a point yes but most of the physical in your gut bass is much higher...i.e. 40-60 hz material no the sub 20 hz stuff. Besides there's only a handful of movies that really have strong bass that low anyway and those subs that reach down that deep tend not to have as strong a response as those tuner higher where the majority of bass is.

[ThomasW]

There are literally hundreds of subs on the market. Some a crap, some are great, most fall somewhere in the middle. Brand-name subs tend to be a bit of a ripoff because you're paying for the huge marketing expenses involved in producing those glossey 12 step offset litho prints in the magazines. And if you buy anything made outside the US you can bet that corners have been cut to get the weight down. With the exception of tube subs, weight IS important in subs.

Now lets get real you have a HUGE room and using some little sub is like trying to fill a bathtub with a teaspoon. Forget the power ratings on the amps those aren't all that important.

The primary rule about subs is displacement, displacement, displacement, displacement, displacement, displacement, displacement, displacement, displacement, and more displacement.

You want a good 'reasonably' small cube sub for ~$700? click on the Parts Express banner ad and type in the following part number 300-764. If you know how to use a screwdriver, you can assemble that 'kit' in 1 hour, and have a really nice real subwoofer, not a toy. If that box is too big try P/N 300-762

[Adz]

I'll leave it to the experts on this Forum to explain why but if you really want unmatched full dynamic range and musical performance well beyond those highly advertised brands, get yourself a passive sub and power it with a good solid state separate amp. I think SVS has one. I have the VMPS Larger Sub and hands down its the best sounding sub I have had in my system or have ever heard. The proponents of passive subs will tell you that amplifiers in virtually all "powered" woofers are dreadful Class B or (even worse) high power Class D designs which are considered the worst measuring, worst performing around.

[ThomasW]

I'll leave it to the experts on this Forum..........The proponents of passive subs will tell you that amplifiers in virtually all "powered" woofers are dreadful Class B or (even worse) high power Class D designs which are considered the worst measuring, worst performing around.

The experts on this forum probably wouldn't make this kind of gross generalization.

[Burke Strickland]

...those subs that reach down that deep tend not to have as strong a response as those tuner higher where the majority of bass is.

Hehe... while I've read that in reviews of some subs that claim to go down to single digit hz (or close to it), you need to come over and feel the bass from my Velodyne FSR-18. Tom Noussaine measured its output across the board as being just about at the top of the field in its day, surpassed by only a couple of very limited distribution custom made models, and it pumps out meaningfully loud and authoritative bass down to at least 16hz.

Actually its measurements still hold up well today. No sane person would really want bass any louder or stronger than it can produce in a reasonably sized room, which is defined as "one the size I have it in" :>) (effectively loading about 7,000 cubic feet -- about 198 cubic meters.) It is quite accurate and doesn't produce the spurious resonances in the higher sub-frequencies that might give the impression of "greater output" from lesser subs. But when the musical or movie material contains bass in the relevant octaves, it delivers bass at sufficient volume to both feel and hear.

...even worse) high power Class D designs which are considered the worst measuring, worst performing around.

Considered so by whom? Any URLS where we can peruse the details that led to those conclusions? Inquiring minds want to know. :>) (Of course, if the URLs are for sales sites for passive subs, or any other sales related sites, to avoid breaking forum rules, we'd need to handle this information via PM rather than posting it publicly.)

Burke

[ThomasW]

Burke,

We can get Jon to address this. He has some 25yrs of experience with class D switching amps. He published an AES paper on them in the 1990's, and was intimitely involved with the design and development of the Crown K series of amps.

[Burke Strickland]

We can get Jon to address this.

Thanks, Thomas. That's a great idea! I'll look forward to his input on this.

Burke

[Q-Man]

I tried all the Sunfire subs, and wasn't happy untill I got the Signature. Sunfire is the king of the mini subs and the Signature can hold it's own againts the likes of the Velodyne HGS 18 and the DD.

The Signature won't be overkill for your room. The Signature is best set 60Hz and below. If you need a sub to go higher look elcewhere. I use mine for 40Hz and below.

[Adz]

The experts on this forum probably wouldn't make this kind of gross generalization.

Although "experts" may have come off as sounding derogatory, I didn't mean it to be that way at all. ops: I was convinced to go this route so I was passing that along as a viable and perhaps cheaper alternative, but it will be interesting to hear what Jon has to say because yes a few different passive sub dealers have separately made that or similar statements about the passive sub with a separate amp being far sonically superior and the way to go if posible since a separate amp is required. But I am more than happy to hear educated proponents offer up another side. For me, the change presented a whole different experience - I can hear the benefits and can describe the sonic differences, I just can't technically explain why its so, but its clearly better than my two previous powered subs at around the same cost - hence another alternative to consider.

[ThomasW]

Burke,

It's probably not coincidental that the above derogatory comment about digital switching amps seems to have more than a casual similarity with this quote from the VMPS Europe website.

Worse, the quality of such built-in amplifiers, particularly the dreadful Class B and Class D designs now popular, is poor; often the entire amplifier component is purchased offshore from a vendor for around $60.00. When a built-in crossover is provided, it too is generally of minimal design and execution, with the cheapest parts and wiring. Such built-in amps are often far from linear, cannot pass even a good sine wave at any frequency, and are burdened with contouring (bass boost of various sorts), infrasonic filters which ring and color the entire woofer output, limiters to prevent the user from playing the sub louder than about 100dB SPL at 1m, and other exigencies which severely limit dynamic range, output levels, and distortion

[Adz]

Cool ! Certainly not coincidental - that's where I bought my subwoofer from as I stated above and that quote just sticks in your head for some reason! I guess VMPS answered it for us then, Thomas. Since you mentioned them yourself, you should check them out - incredible sub called the "Larger Sub" and award winning speakers. I don't own the speakers yet (I like myDef Techs for Home Theater), but I auditioned them and they are certainly deserving of the awards they have won and praise by notable reviewers like Marty DeWulff and Peter Montcrief. The company is owned by some really nice guy who builds them himself and he definitely is a proponent of going with a passive sub!

[jimmyp58]

ThomasW:

I wish to send you a comment privately (PM or e-mail) about your most recent post but you don't allow PMs (don't know why) and I cannot connect to your e-mail. I don't want to get into a public debate about this.

Jim

[Adz]

Hey Jimmy! What's up.
Hey Will - Sorry to take the thread off track a bit. We both had Def Tech Cubes and can say nothing wrong with these. What it offers is incredible power in a compact and cool looking box which has a very high WAF. However, it looks like you have the room and if neither you or your wife don't mind a bigger box in your room strongly consider a passive sub something like the SVS passive or VMPS. Of course, you'll need a separate outboard amp, but the difference is truly worth it and would take your system to the next level. If not, then I think a step up from subs like Def Tech and Sunfire may be the SVS active sub and Earthquake CineNova - here is a review of an Earthquake top of the line sub. Check out these reviews -

http://www.earthquakesound.com/platinum_award.htm

http://www.guidetohometheater.com//speakersystems/60/index.html

[willbrosk]

Well again let me say i appreciate the advice. I dont mind when these things get off track, sometimes you learn more that way. Figured I would list some info that may help. Currently im using a yamaha 1500 reciever with wharfedale evo 30 mains(low goes down to 37) wharfedale evo center and def tech bpx surrounds. Obviously these are all mid range stuff at best and I would like to upgrade everything but since ive bought the tv(sony 60lcd), reciever, monster 5100, various wires and speakers in the last 4 months it will have to come in time. My current budget is 800 for the sub upgrade. Also I am begining to learn to purchase with resale in mind. One of the reasons I was leaning toward the sunfire and def tech was that they were priced below market value, and if I sold them later I would not likely lose much. My next big upgrade will likely be def tech 7000sc front towers. With this in mind I will no longer need additional subs in the front. So I will either sell the sub I buy now or place it in the rear of the room.

Second random question what do you do when your main speakers are 4ohm your center is 8ohm and your reciever only lets you pick 4 or 8 ohm for all or none?

[Burke Strickland]

Second random question what do you do when your main speakers are 4ohm your center is 8ohm and your reciever only lets you pick 4 or 8 ohm for all or none?

Let's dispose of that one first. I'd suggest you consult with the manufacturer of your receiver and get their advice on that. It may work fine, but they may have reasons to advise against it.

If a power amp has adequate juice to properly handle a 4 ohm load at full power, they usually don't include a switch to set the ohms. The amp basically just "self adjusts" the wattage output based on the load it faces. A Class A amp typically doubles the watts output to a 4 ohm speaker over what it puts out to an 8 ohm speaker.

But amps in other classes typically don't get to the 2x level because their power supplies can't handle it, or due to other design limitations. Where the built in amps are not particularly high-current, some designs use a switch to slect a circuit that limits the power to the speakers when 4 ohms (or in some cases 6 ohms) is selected to avoid clipping or other potential problems.

An 8 ohm speaker hooked up to a unit with that configuration and setting would get even less power than the 4 ohm speakers. But depending on the relative efficency of the center and mains, that may or may not pose a problem in setting an equal volume level in all three front channels.

]My next big upgrade will likely be def tech 7000sc front towers. With this in mind I will no longer need additional subs in the front.

Don't count on that. While the 7000sc towers are awesome speakers, one of the problems with towers that have "built in subs" is that you either have to place the towers to maximize your soundstage in the non-bass frequency range, or position them to optimize the bass output and thus screw up everything else. It is very seldom that both requirements are satisfied at a single location. Thus, assuming that you've placed them as recommended, away from the walls to facilitate a broad sound stage, you might be tempted to "over drive" the subwoofer section to boost the lower bass since the room itself is not doing that. But then that typically skews the upper bass to be out-of-balance with the rest of the frequency range.

Also, frankly, Def Tech tends to be overly optimistic in its self-rating of its subwoofers' capabilities. They simply don't go s low in real life as they are claimed to go in their glowing advertisements with all those unattributed breathlessly enthusiastic "quotes" (to be fair, now and then, they also sprinkle in a few quotes from identifiable sources as well, usually from objective reviewers for the magazines where the ads are run). :>)

For several years, I used Def Tech BP-2000 towers with 15 inch "built-in subs" as my front left and right main speakers in a 5.1 configuration. Overall, they were very pleasing. But I found that when properly positioned for optimal sound staging, although they could play plenty loud in the upper bass range on up, they simply didn't go low enough at a useable volume to be satisfying in the really deep bass region. This was especially disappointing on movie soundtracks with a lot of "feel the bass" rumble and on organ music where I wanted the sound and impact of lower pedal notes to roll over me like I had experienced in European cathedrals.

I longed for the powerful bass that I heard in various demos at dealers and friends' home theaters which employed a separate sub. I ended up adding the Velodyne FSR-18 to my system to finally have adequate output in the lower bass octaves with no unwanted side effects. It made a world of difference with movie soundtracks to have a dedicated speaker (the Velo) for the LFE channel, and it helped a lot in making music sound more, well, "musical" (balanced and accurate) by allowing me to "dial down" the built in sub to be at a sound output level more properly aligned with the rest of the frequency spectrum .

Needless to say, when I moved up to a different set of front speakers, I continued to use the Velodyne sub. I haven't heard very many "full range" speakers that don't really need a sub to augment/provide the deepest bass. Once you've had a high quality sub properly positioned ion the room, you won't want to be without it unless you move up to something like the $14,000 Vandersteen 5a's which not only have powerful built in sub bass modules in the floor standing towers, but also room frequency correction circuitry to overcome positioning limitations.

So I suggest you think of your pending sub upgrade as a long term investment that should be designed to coexist with whatever you upgrade to in the future. Or a stepping stone to something bigger and better to more adequately augment a higher level set of speakers. If you buy another, bigger sub later on to augment the 7000sc towers, you wil not want to keep a smaller less capable sub to use at the rear, per discussion about whether subs should match. http://64.27.11.233/forum/showthread.php4?t=10714

With your stated budget, it sounds like a DIY or SVS sub probably would be your best bets, unless you come across a real deal on a big, powerful used sub in mint condition at the top end of one of the other brands.

Good luck!

Burke

PS -- the Def Tech BP-2000s are still in use in my system as high quality side channel surround speakers in a 7.1 configuration.

[jimmyp58]

Will:

I'd echo what Burke is saying about the Def Tech 7000SCs. Don't get me wrong, they are very fine speakers. I owned a pair recently until I upgraded to my VMPS RM-40's for my mains (and I loved them all the while I had them). A lot of guys begin buying their Def Tech power towers with the same premise as you --- 'with the built-in powered subs, I don't need an outboard subwoofer'. Well, if you are on a very limited budget, o.k., but then again, if money were so tight you wouldn't be shelling out the money you will for these speakers because they aren't cheap. There are a number of ways you can send a bass signal to these towers (ADZ might chime in here because he had a lot of trial and error with his particularly when he added his VMPS Larger sub). What many guys do, keeping with your thought process, is send the LFE signal from their pre-pro to the LFE on the 7000SCs. Certainly very doable. If you do this, then do an a/b by sending straight speaker wire to the 7000's and run your LFE signal to an external sub, you'll more than likely find your bass response better in the latter scenario. There's just no getting around to the fact you let your true subwoofer handle the bass duties. This is what I did but I did try the first scenario during a trial and error period. What you also discover, if you begin with sending the LFE to the towers then switch to the LFE to an external sub, is that your mids and highs will really open up on the 7000's. It seems that when you send the LFE to the 7000's, it kind of overpowers the mids and highs.

I'll leave these thoughts for now as I could ramble on regarding what I discovered between the differences with the Def Tech BP7000SC's and the VMPS RM-40's.

Jim

[Adz]

Great last two posts, guys.
As Jimmy noted, I currently have the 7000scs. At the time I upgraded to these, I had no sub anymore in my set-up. I have since found that to have been a big mistake. I thought I would just run the LFE signal from the processor to the speakers. Well, I found that it did in fact "cloud" the mids and hi's to a point where when I disconnected the LFE, everything absolutely sounded cleaner, clearer, better. You'll find that the 7000scs produce phenomenal bass on its own running as large; purely for movie soundtracks if that's your thing it would be tough to beat the deep bass it does produce given its built in 1,800 watt amplifiers. But now that "cleared" up my hi and midrange problem, I did need to add a separate subwoofer to handle the .1 LFE responsibilities. Running the Def Techs as large, with a serparate external sub handling all the LFE duties, has produced great results for me.

I would agree with Burke's asessment about Def Tech being overly optimistic in its self-rating of its subwoofers' capabilities with respect to the 2000s, however, I would just point out that although the 7000s and the 2000s are the same "concept", they really are completely different speakers and I think much of this has been addressed by Def Tech engineers- the 7000scs are totally redesigned technology -- the electronic crossovers and the built in Reference SuperCubes produce some phenomenal very deep bass results now and I think come a lot closer to the claims they and other perhaps not so independent reviewers have put forth (I can say this as I had the BP2000s right before I upgraded to the 7000scs), and so I think the problem swung too much the other way and now you have a "clouding" issue as there is just too much intense bass coming out.

[Cracking Oboe]

I just noticed that Axiom has 2 new subwoofers; The EP500, and a huge monster of a sub, the EP600 8O . The quoted specs are very impressive. Has anyone heard anything about these subs?

Cracking!