A high end integrated from Ayre

**Bruce** · 08 February 2002, 17:46 Friday

Jon,

Today I drive my 86dB sensitive Dynaudio Contour 2.8 towers (2-way with 7.8in mid-bass and a 7.8in PR) with 200wpc @4 Ohm with a Parasound 1205a 5-channel amp (also used for Dynaudio center & surrounds for HT).

I use the Immedia Speaker placement methodology (long wall) and sit about 8-9 feet from these speakers and 18inches from the back wall. My favorite music is female vocalists (Sara M. and Jewel) as well as new jazz (Fourplay, Boney James, David Benoit, etc). I'd guess my normal listening level SPL at my listening position with this music is about 80dB (C weighting including sub response).

Do you think this Ayre integrated would mate well with these speakers?

Bruce
____________________________________________

**John Holmes** · 09 February 2002, 08:07 Saturday

That is one nice looking piece of equipment.

I don't know too much about spec's like zero feedback, but the rest looks impressive. And it truly doubles at 4 ohm output...not bad.

"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

**JonMarsh** · 09 February 2002, 15:45 Saturday

Hello Bruce,

At the playback level's you're talking about, 60W could be bordering on overkill!

It's often been said that it's the quality of the first watt that's most important. Now, I think the rest of them count for quite a bit, too. But, when we first heard one of the earyl V series prototypes at ThomasW's, it was at 85-90 dB levels on fairly efficient speakers (90 dB/watt), and even on Tom's secondary system (as far as preamp, CD source, etc.) the benefits were quite audible, not the least bit subtle.

Tom has an Ayre piece on order, and one of his friends in Denver, Dennis, has gotten his. They did a thorough listen in Denni's system, and were very pleased with the results- (Apogee speakers, not exactly high efficiency!).

When friends ask me about electronics for their music, even if something like this might not be what they're first think of, I suggest giving it a good listen, if only to "recalibrate your expectations". I have some ideas about why NFB circuits sound different from conventional amps, but they're only ideas, based on observation. The observations are a consistent phenomena, even with tube gear, inlcuding some of those with variable feedback settings. In the early days of Ayre gear, there were some things about their first amp which I didn't like quite as well; but some of this was probably source limitations of the time, as well as the more limited bandwidth of their first designs, which were 100% FET, with IR output devices.

So, we've been on a kick about this stuff for a bit, and it has caused me to dust off some NFB circuits I was working on for another company three years ago and start preparing an implementation in an old Quatre amp. If that turns out well, I'll be modding my Aragon's.

I'm also intrigued by the matching CD player that will be introduced soon. Charles Hansen has demonstrated with the Ayre D1 that he can wring some fo the best performance in the world out of CD PCM; in a piece focussed just on the CD end, I'm curious to see what will result. I think he's on a roll with this series as well as the V-5/V-6 and the preamps.

Best regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**Lex** · 09 February 2002, 20:55 Saturday

Interesting piece. Looks sort of like an industrial controller of some kind.

Definitely a clean, if not sterile looking design.

Some nice things coming out of this company, thanks for the info Jon.

Lex

**Bruce** · 09 February 2002, 23:01 Saturday

Thanks Jon.

Yes, the Parasound 1100D stereo preamp I currently use only needs a 9 o'clock volume control position to get my music to those levels (from the CD players input). So it doesn't really seem like I'm taxing the 200 wpc @ 4 Ohms provided by my current amp (whose volume pots are turned all the way up).

Bruce

Bruce
____________________________________________

**P-Dub** · 11 February 2002, 19:55 Monday

Just to follow up on the watts and efficiency. If I am not mistaken, for every doubling of power, one can increase db by 3. Also since sound decreases by the square of the distance from the source, the general rule is to subtrace 6 db for each doubling of distance.

So a figure speaker sensitivity chart for my Energy eXL16's, which are claimed to be 91 dB, and I'm guessing that's at 1 M, would look something like this:

1 W = 91 dB
2 W = 94 dB
4 W = 97 dB
8 W = 100 dB
16W = 103 dB
32W = 106 dB
64W = 109 dB

If I sit 3M away from my speakers, then I should subtract 12 dB from the above table.

1 W = 79 dB
2 W = 82 dB
4 W = 85 dB
8 W = 88 dB
16W = 91 dB
32W = 94 dB
64W = 97 dB

I was listening to some music on the weekend, with my handy SPL meter, and from my seating position I was reading peaks of around 90 dB on a C weighting. That was really loud for my apt and I don't think I'd have it at that level continuously.

For regular tv viewing, I'm typically listening to constant levels of around 65 dB or lower. For a movie, I might boost it up 75 dB. For music, it would be around 70 dB.

I'm using a Yamaha 595 AV receiver with a claimed 70Wx5. So for my 'levels' it sounds great. Now what would happen if I put some real power behind my music? I don't really know, but I'm sure I'd hear a difference and pine for clean power.

So I guess I'm saying I agree that the first watt is probably the most important.

Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

**AndrewM** · 11 February 2002, 21:32 Monday

Don't forget to add another 3 or so db because you have 2 speakers. And then add a little for room gain.

So in Bruce's case, if he's not looking to rock the windows and such I think he'd be really happy.

I'm still trying to decide if I want to experiment with some higher powered tubes for my new speaker system (in construction, finally), 94-95db effecient, I figure 40 watts or so will get me to some nice ear bleed levels, but it's going to be a horrible sonic match to the other amp in my system (which is regular ol' solid state). The matching Focal designed center channel is only like 89db effecient.

Andrew

**JonMarsh** · 11 February 2002, 21:45 Monday

What this discussion does really well is highlight the sometimes overlooked necessity to match the requirements of the speakers and ampifier. A really *good* 50-60 watts with the right speakers can really sing, for the purposes of music. And then there's always the possiblity of off loading the power hungry bottom end into a good sub.

So Andrew, tell us about your new speaker system in construction- I could make some guesses, but they'd be WAGs, so why don't you save me the trouble and spill the beans?

Regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**AndrewM** · 12 February 2002, 10:22 Tuesday

So Andrew, tell us about your new speaker system in construction- I could make some guesses, but they'd be WAGs, so why don't you save me the trouble and spill the beans?

It's the same speaker system that I've been talking about and planning for almost the past year.

That Aria 7 TLR setup that was bought way to long ago and has been sitting in a closet since then. I've finally finished all of the other projects that were keeping me from doing a "fun project" (buying a house is soooo much fun). I've decided to keep it simple and actually go ahead and just build it to the kit specs for the most part, I'll worry about building the killer 3-way setup for later (amazing what EQ'ing your sub will do to your perception of needing lower bass than 80Hz).

Plus this will allow me to get something there, and if I'm not happy with it, it will give me a good excuse to go pick up that copy of LspCAD and tweak it. Which will then lead to upgrading it. Plus I'm curious to read some more reviews of the W-cone drivers, and Focal does have a 7" W-cone version of the 7k4411 (higher eff. when used in pairs, 10Ohm ea), so if they turn out to be something special it's easy to throw them in there.

And I'm still thinking about picking up one of those Parts Connection ST-40's, but since my music and home theater rig have to be together I'm concerned about integration between the different types of equipment....although an all tube-amp home theater setup would be different...

Andrew

**JonMarsh** · 12 February 2002, 11:06 Tuesday

You know, those old Western Electric horns they used in the theaters sounded pretty good driven from the old tube gear- an all tube HT might be a very interesting phenomena!

I've been curious about the new Focal parts, too; you're probably referring to the 7W4411? That caught my eye, but I'm a little worried by the first break up mode at about 1400, and the second (worse ) one at 2800.

I'm beginning to think my friend Chas Hansen (formerly Avalon, now Ayre) is right, and metal cones are your friend... (well, with the right techniques). He's got a pair of Avalon Eclipses modified with Seas Excel 8's, and I've just been testing my MKIII version of the M8 using the HiVi M8a driver (what a conincidence), and it's first mode is at about 2700; it's very detailed and natural in through the upper mids; I've never heard acoustic guitar sound this good or natural, except on electrostats.

Let us know how the speakers turn out- and what you think of the ST-40's, if you get them. I've only read good things about them.

Best regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**AndrewM** · 12 February 2002, 11:54 Tuesday

You know, those old Western Electric horns they used in the theaters sounded pretty good driven from the old tube gear- an all tube HT might be a very interesting phenomena!

Eh, I don't think I could get any kind of horns into the home audio system. I showed the lil lady a picture of full range system that used a big bass horn and some other interesting stuff that was for sale on Ebay and she expressed more than a few words about how they looked, unfortunately none of them were very kind.

Edit, here's the pic of them....

Image not available

Just sold on Ebay for something like $14k.

Actually the all tube HT would be kind of fun, but building a good center channel that has the efficiency for say 40watts is going to be a little rough, especially to get any kind of sonic match to the mains, and then to try and keep in budget. Could use a TLR tweeter, an Audiom 7k and a pair of 7k4441's, but that's going to be a pretty expensive speaker setup and it's going to look really strange with 3 7" drivers in a line with a tweeter on top of one of them. Or I could just use a regular Aria 7 with the TC120 tweeter and lay it on it's side, but that's not going to yield me the best sound, and if I set it on top of my TV the right way the tweeter will be another 12 or so inches higher than it already has to be (or more importantly it would be around 1.5-2ft higher than the mains).

So how would you say those Hi-Vi's compare to say the Eton's you like. I know I've seen you mention favorable ES like sound coming from the Etons as well. Maybe a semi-budget version of it?

Andrew

**JonMarsh** · 12 February 2002, 14:56 Tuesday

Weellll, Andrew, that's just the thing- I'm very impressed with the HiVi aluminum-magnesium cone drivers! The issue in the upper midrange that I wasn't quite satisfied with on the last version M8 (detailed in other thread) has been resolved. I think it comes down to running the Eton too close to the first cone bobble- which is at 1.4 kHz- and is only easily visible on the impedance curve- the on axis amplitude looks pretty much OK. But the phase isn't OK at 1.5 kHz, and the waterfall plot shows some energy storage, too. Kind of subtle, but definitely there.

The HiVi is clearly cleaner, and actually it's upper end breakup mode is lower Q than the Eton's, wonder of wonders. Maybe there's a reason Revel likes those concave shaped diaphragms, too. Even listening up close to the speaker (like six inches away!) it's apparent that the HiVi M8a is very clean right up to the top of it's pass band.

I suspect a Seas Excel Mag cone driver would be comparable in the same range, but it's breakup mode, when it comes, is a real doozy- a lot higher Q. So, for now, I think this is my favorite 8" driver, particularly since the cost is reasonable -not as low as the L21 SEAS, but the M8a is *much* flatter from 500 Hz to 2 kHz, and seems to have a good motor, as far as LF stuff goes.

Now, I'm wondering how the 6-1/2" M6 driver sounds. And wishing they made a 7"!

Regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**Audioclyde** · 03 October 2002, 17:26 Thursday

I'm having to move from separates (Llano Trinity 200 and BAT VK-20) to an integrated. I have Wilson-Benesch Act Ones (around 89db) and a 14 by 18 by 8 room; any thoughts on whether the AX-7 will have enough power?

Any input appreciated.

**JonMarsh** · 03 October 2002, 18:04 Thursday

Where do you have the speakers in the room, and how far do you sit from them?

If they are a "real" 89 dB (after including baffle step compensation), I'd say give the Ayre Integrated a try. I'm using a V-5 with speakers which are about 84 dB efficient, and that's quite satisfactory- assuming you're not going for headbanging levels with thrash rock. By that I mean that my girlfriend would normally be asking me to turn it down considerably were she at my place when I do my listening. By that, I mean 101 - 104 dB max listening levels, normally. (there's some drop for distance, but a pair also pushes it up 3 dB). To put that in perspective, you could do 101 with 60 watts per channel with these speakers. With your speakers, you should be able to do 107 dB or so with the Ayre integrated. Does that fit in with your listening requirements?

Assuming eveyone is being honest about sensitivity ratings and all. What I *wouldn't* recommend pairing the AX-7 with is something like a Joeseph Audio RM33si, which is closer to 81 dB efficient. Then, a V-5 is the right starting point, and a V-1x would be the ticket. They had some RM33si's at Ayre, and that's what work best with them if you want higher levels.

At the rated power, the Ayre gear does double the output into lower impedances. That's because they're conservative about rated power.

If that sounds in line with what you're looking for, by all means give an AX-7 a listen; I think you'll be pleased with what you hear. I'm not aware of an Oklahoma area dealer, if you have problems finding one to work with, try contacting Ayre direct. Email on the web site.

Best regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**Audioclyde** · 04 October 2002, 10:48 Friday

Thanks for the insight, Jon. Speakers are about 4' out from back wall (and unfortunately there is a RPTV between them!, though they are out in front of it), and I sit 9-11 feet away.

I don't think I listen at really high volumes--family would make me turn it down! Certainly the peaks in the movies we watch on this combined HT/2-channel system are much higher.

**JonMarsh** · 04 October 2002, 15:11 Friday

Well, it's not so easy to just say, "Go out and listen to one", since according to their current dealer chart they don't have one in Oklahoma. But it sounds to me like your system could work with one well.

The K5x preamp is also on the verge of shipping, and they're hoping (but uncertain) about gettting the new baby DVD player out the door before the end of the year.

ThomasW did get his Ayre V5 in, and he loves it. Now he's bugging me for a mod for all of our Aragon amps; I'm still in the process of laying out the replacement channel PCB.

There have been some comments and discussion about the CX-7 CD player over at AudioAsylum, a lot of positive comments for the most part, though I haven't seen inputs about the AX-7.

Good luck, and best wishes getting a unit in that makes you happy.

Best regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

A high end integrated from Ayre

A high end integrated from Ayre

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