The appeal of technology for it's own sake...

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  • Evil Twin
    Super Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 1532

    The appeal of technology for it's own sake...

    One of the challenges of this hobby is that the advances in technology and the focus on this aspect can create motivations and actions which may have only a secondary basis in the enjoyment of music- such as the appeal of technology for it's own sake or because of similarities to past encounters...

    Today's example is the Cambridge Audio 840W. Perhaps you have examples you would also be interested in sharing.

    In a past existence, prior to my metamorphosis to state most know me now it, I was involved in high power audio design, including consulting at times for professional audio and high end audio applications. This is not a very difficult endeavor, as familiarity with the high power RF turbo injector circuits used in the typical pod racer give one a substantial background in elementary physics and advanced electronics, if you survive the experience.

    Of course, the modern way being what it is, the interesting details are usually hidden out of sight... necessitating a small effort at dis-assembly.

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    In this case, removing the top chassis cover is sufficient to inspect the interesting technological aspects.

    But since the majority of you won't know what you're looking at, I will add some labels and commentary to "enhance" your experience- if you are not Force sensitive to technology configurations, these explanations will have to suffice.

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    XD mode operation bears some explanation, but if you are not familiar with most of the standard amplifier linear biasing techniques, the details may confuse you. The important point is that the biasing system operates the output stage in single ended Class A in the lower power area, and shifts the crossover point to a much higher signal level for Class AB operation. While Cambridge reportedly have a patent on this concept, perhaps they should refrain from claiming exclusivity, as the XA seris high bias AB amplifiers from Pass Audio do the same thing. The intent is better purity of sound under typical lower level listening conditions, and high power with lower distortion than typical AB amplifiers- judging from the specifications and reviews, they may have achieved both.

    But apart from technical marketing, other interesting features abound- especially for those conversant with power electronics.

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    Overall power storage is well above average and for it's weight and power class. And even more intriguing, a dedicated low resistance, low inductance (if configured correctly) power bus system is used.

    In fact, two bus bar systems are used, though the secondary one is not as easy to spot.

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    All in all, a very intriguing piece of technology at a relatively reasonable price.

    In the end, though, it is how it plays music that will determine it's fate... technology or not.
    Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 19:39 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
    DFAL
    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries
  • Hdale85
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Jan 2006
    • 16075

    #2
    Hmm this does look like a very nice piece. I know Cambridge makes some excellent CD players and haven't seen a whole lot about their amps. How does this amp compare to your favorite Aaragon or whatever you are running today

    Comment

    • Johnloudb
      Super Senior Member
      • May 2007
      • 1877

      #3
      Thanks Evil Twin, that's very interesting. I thought Pass had a patent on the type of variable bias technique he uses in his XA amps. I read in Stereophile recently that Panasonic had a patent on variable current biasing of the output stage. So, Pass got around it by biasing at high current but varying the supply voltage to reduce power dissapation at low output, or something like that.

      Maybe varying the crossover point on this is slightly different from what Pass does on his XA amps? I don't have a clue, just a thought. But, that would be more of a variable current biasing like Panasonic does.
      John unk:

      "Why can't we all just, get along?" ~ Jack Nicholson (Mars Attacks)

      My Website (hyperacusis, tinnitus, my story)

      Comment

      • Evil Twin
        Super Senior Member
        • Nov 2004
        • 1532

        #4
        There is only a small variable element to the XD biasing, according to the Cambridge white paper. The biasing is single ended, at a power level, with a separate current source under active control, NOT a biasing of the main complementary transistor pairs. This allows setting up the main complementary pair at a class B bias potential resulting the lowest possible output stage crossover distortion- high bias AB such as Aragon and many others use can actually degrade the open loop output distortion- Douglas Self has a good description of this in his book, and I've verified it to my own satisfaction back in the mid 90's, when I was doing a lot of output stage development work for other parties.

        Obviously, in some regards, features must be different between what Pass Labs does and Cambridge does that they aren't stepping on each others toes, at least not blatantly.

        As to Dougie's question, as this amplifier was just setup for listening and initial burn-in, it is probably pre-mature to offer a definitive opinion. The "daily driver" in the meditation sphere is an Ayre AX-7e. The large system has an Ayre K5 preamp, which needs updating (long waiting list due to new MP mod), an Ayre V5, and Aragon 8008 BB X3 and a pair of Aragon Palladium 1K monoblocks- the power amplifier in use depending on the task at hand.

        The initial impression is that the 840W combines the delicacy and refinement in the upper registers of the Ayre amplifiers with the control and low frequency weight of the Aragons, and at similar power levels as the Aragons. Resolution in the midrange is above average, allowing listening "further into the mix" for pop music like KT Tunstall, and providing above average spatiality on acoustic recordings. The single ended class A operation at lower power does result in a warm running amplifier- idle power is 180W with no signal; standby mode is only 5W.

        More run-in and listening is required, but for now, I would say promising, most promising. It is too clean to appeal to many who prefer tube amplifiers; at first blush the midrange is less forward or warm. It also has a consistently low output impedance until about 10 kHz, where it gradually starts rising.

        However, rather than appear like a painting with somewhat overly rendered tonal colors, instead the emphasis appears focussed on spatiality and transient definition, even of complex program- the kind of spatiality that occurs when you can listen more into the original acoustic, rather than the ear and brain being distracted by what is being generated in the speaker or electronics that is NOT part of the original acoustic space. The high frequency reproduction is reminiscent of the Class A Stax DA-300 and DA-80M, which I used to sell in the 70's.

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        In this regard, I would say Cambridge Audio's design efforts have been successful, especially as the 840W generates no where near as much heat as the DA-300, which was a true space heater, and totally impractical in the summertime.
        Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 19:40 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
        DFAL
        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15284

          #5
          Annoying problem...

          Well, the Cambridge Audio 840W has also generated some annoying disturbance in the dark side - the binding posts look fairly decent from the outside, but they're not well constructed. At first I thought they just weren't installed properly, that they didn't have double nuts or lock washers, because they were becoming loose and wiggling around! Quite a bit, in fact, enough to fear having shorts from the posts to the internal chassis!

          Well, that turned out not to be the case...

          More about this shortly, and the fix for it.
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15284

            #6
            Very annoying, but fixed!

            Well, in the spirit of a picture is worth a thousand words, plus or minus, here's a relevant picture- all the binding posts removed from the Cambridge Audio 840w.

            Note, while taking these out, a couple of the binding posts literally came apart, because what looks like a long continuous piece is actually two pieces pressed together- you can see one red and one black binding post, and the separate rear part of the post which is pressed into it. Basically, with slight mechanical stress, they start to separate, and the tightening of the nuts and lock nuts has no effect on keeping it together- actually makes it worse by increasing the tension to pull the two parts apart.


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            Well, this just won't do, of course, so being the sort of guy that I am I reached into my parts draw and pulled out a bunch of Cardas Rhodium plated solid machined binding posts, and installed them in the 840w.



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            Lucky for me the panel mount holes exactly matched what the Cardas need, both in diameter and spacing, so it was a soft of easy refit, apart from puling the top and back off the amp!
            Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 19:41 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • Face
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2007
              • 995

              #7
              Nice job!
              SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

              Comment

              • Finleyville
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2006
                • 350

                #8
                Nicely done. I am glad that your initial impression were positive, especially against some tough competition. After some extended listening time I hope you will report back to us if your first impressions were correct.

                What speakers are you driving with the Cambridge?
                BE ALERT! The world needs more lerts.

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15284

                  #9
                  These are what I'm driving with the Cambridge now- my latest DIY project, the Isiris:



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                  The Cambridge Audio 840w has been my primary living room amp since late 2009; very good performance over the whole frequency range, and with it's single ended biased and displaced crossover point, the sound at low levels is very clean and natural, too. These binding posts are the only issue I've had with it. There are a few amps I'd consider replacing it with, but they are all over $10K.
                  Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 19:42 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • John Holmes
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 2703

                    #10
                    I purchased a Cambridge Audio 840W a couple months back. This is the first time I have owned an amp of this magnitude (cost and build). I must say, I am impressed.

                    Jon, has said everything that needs to be said, about its performance and build quality. I just wanted to share, there is another satisfied owner!
                    "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15284

                      #11
                      Glad to hear that John, but not at all surprised! I hope it gives you a lot of pleasurable listening! :T
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • John Holmes
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 2703

                        #12
                        Thanks, Jon!
                        "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15284

                          #13
                          Well, it's something I've noticed and wondered about that the 840W isn't on Cambridge's web site for some time. It turns out I've missed the news about a new model in the wings, which is rolling out with availability officially at the CES.

                          The 851W is being touted as Cambridge Audio's best sounding amp yet, and features a standby mode that automatically detects an incoming signal from the connected 851E. It promises precise, powerful delivery thanks to high-end components like a refined version of its patent-pending Class XD system, two toroidal transformers, and Terrapin impedance buffering modules. Available from January, the 851E is priced at US$2,800
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                          • Power delivery 200W into 8 Ohms stereo or 500W RMS in mono bridged configuration per amp

                          • Terrapin impedance buffering modules separate amplifier and signal impedance

                          • Two separate toroidal transformers, one for the power amplifier itself and one for input and other circuitry

                          • New smart auto-standby detects incoming audio signal and comes out of its energy efficient (<0.5W) standby mode

                          • All-metal chassis, with extensive use of aluminium

                          • CAP5 proprietary protection to prevent DC spikes, overheating, short circuits or clipping
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                          It sounds like a number of detail improvements and cosmetic updates- including a mostly aluminum chassis now- these should widen the appeal, but may not be grounds for an upgrade by existing owners like me. OTOH, they have those same binding posts (it seems) that I've had trouble with.


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                          Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 19:43 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • PewterTA
                            Moderator
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 2901

                            #14
                            Looks very pretty!!! My problem is I want to hear it!
                            Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                            -Dan

                            Comment

                            • wkhanna
                              Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 5673

                              #15
                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                              OTOH, they have those same binding posts (it seems) that I've had trouble with.
                              Did you ever find time to notify Cambridge Audio of the problem you had with terminals coming apart? If so, did you ever receive any response?
                              _


                              Bill

                              Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                              ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                              FinleyAudio

                              Comment

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