Old vs new recievers-new lack bass

[DeanP]

Just to start off, I upgraded my sacd/dvd-a player from a Samsung to a Denon. I got the both used, and bought the Samsung to hear what all the fuss was about with sacd/dvd-a, well I got hook on it!
I installed the Denon in my HT system and moved the Sammy up to my living room. I use the Denon for music only. I found a great improvement; clarity was still there and the bass improved.
Now when I installed the Sammy on my "old" system; a Luxman intregated amp; the sound was awesome. Great clarity and the bottom end was outrageous! Lots of bass, though the Sammy did not show this in my HT set-up.
Now I attribute all of this to my amps; in the HT system, I have a Yammy as a pre/pro with a 6 ch gainclone whereas, as above, the Luxman is the driving force there.
So I concluded that the amps nowadays just don't have the bottom end like yesteryears.
The big question is, maybe I need to get a much better amp to have that better bottom end. I've recently listened to a Denon vs Yammy and found the Denon had better bass but not like my Luxman.
Does anyone have any suggestions to improve my set-up to get better bass in regards to pre/pros and amps?

[Glen B]

While there could be some truth to your claim, you've only compared a single Luxman integrated against a gainclone. That's not enough to decide that older amps are better.

[cug]

Now I attribute all of this to my amps; in the HT system, I have a Yammy as a pre/pro with a 6 ch gainclone whereas, as above, the Luxman is the driving force there.
So I concluded that the amps nowadays just don't have the bottom end like yesteryears.

And you came to that conclusion exactly why? You compared to different setups (Maybe even different speakers?) in different rooms with different furniture, different sizes, different damping, different listening position, ...?

Or did you do the comparison with EXACTLY the same setup? The Yamaha NOT doing any equalization? Same room? Same speakers? Same positions? Same listening position? Stereo only? If not, no conclusion at all can be drawn. And I mean none at all!

[DeanP]

I've had the same speakers hooked up in the HT system and they did not sound at all the same. Way less bass. I noticed years ago that my Luxman had better bottom end when I first bought it. I then had hooked it up to my buddy's exiting system but using my Luxman and there was definitely a difference.
So if I would go with true separates, would I hear the difference? IE:more bass

[cug]

I've had the same speakers hooked up in the HT system and they did not sound at all the same. Way less bass. I noticed years ago that my Luxman had better bottom end when I first bought it. I then had hooked it up to my buddy's exiting system but using my Luxman and there was definitely a difference.
So if I would go with true separates, would I hear the difference? IE:more bass

So, still different rooms? Different listening volumes? Different sources? Different ...? You name it.

Normally, EVERY other component in the chain and the room itself changes the sound way more than any amplifier.

There are still differences between amps, maybe your Yamaha is just not able to provide enough current for your speakers / listening levels / impedance changes with frequency ... whatever. But normally, these differences are very small compared to the influence of nearly any other factor in the room.

If your receiver can't fire your speakers appropriately, you'll get better results with any amplifier that can. Differences between these amplifiers might range from nothing to very slight differences. In many tests out there was found, that in a double blind A/B test, listeners couldn't differentiate between VERY different amps reliably. And as soon as listening volumes and frequency response is equalled on both, nobody was able to win Richard Clark's "amplifier challenge".

So, it normally comes down to finding the amp, that can drive your speakers appropriately (and normally the Yamaha should be able to do that) and finding the one where you like the frequency response (which has nothing to do with quality - I can set you up with a 500 dollar amp, that has all the bass punch you'll want).

Still: you should really carefully compare the Yamaha's settings regarding equalization. I found a Yamaha RX-2700 having a different character than a Rotel RB-1072/RC-1070 combo, but it wasn't due to the lack of ability but more due to roll-off of lower frequency (which some people see as a feature because they use subwoofers to compensate - especially in HT setups).

I did comparisons between a Rotel RA-1062 (700 USD) and a Classé CAP-2100 (5000 USD) and the differences at normal listening levels were marginal. Not worth 500 dollars, definitely not worth 4300. But it's not always only the sound. The Classé was able to drive more difficult speakers, had more headroom, more features, looked cooler and so. Still I got the Musical Fidelity A5 when I wanted a bit more power for driving my 804S.

[DeanP]

Well now I am going to put my Luxman as the amp instead of my gainclone and still use my Yammy as the pre and we'll see what happens. It will probably take a couple of days before I do this, so I'll report back when I accomplish this.
I'll be using my Denon on pure direct through 5.1 analogue inputs through my Yammy, so there should be no processing going on in the Yammy. One speaker hooked up through the Yammy and the other through the Luxman.
Results in couple of days...

[cug]

Well now I am going to put my Luxman as the amp instead of my gainclone and still use my Yammy as the pre and we'll see what happens. It will probably take a couple of days before I do this, so I'll report back when I accomplish this.
I'll be using my Denon on pure direct through 5.1 analogue inputs through my Yammy, so there should be no processing going on in the Yammy. One speaker hooked up through the Yammy and the other through the Luxman.
Results in couple of days...

If the differences are as big as you think they are, even moving the speaker cables should reveal them.

I'd suggest two tests:

- Bring the Luxman over and swap cables (speaker, source) between the Yamaha and the Luxman

- Use the Luxman as a power amp for the Yamaha

Then you'll see at least where more or less differences are. I'm very interested to hear the results!

As I said: we did some heavy testing when we got our amp and I also returned to the stores a couple of times to compare different setups (blind a/b). What I heard:

- Rotel RA-1062
- Rotel RC-1070 / RB-1072
- Rotel RC-1082 / RB-1072
- Rotel RC-1082 / RB-1080
- Rotel RC-1082 / RB-1092

- Classé CAP-2100

- Some NAD components (can't remember the names)
- Some Arcam components (can't remember the names)

- Bryston 2B SST (with Rotel Pre)
- Bryston 4B SST (with Rotel Pre)

- Krell KAV-400xi

- unknown McIntosh (discarded right away because of the retro look)

- Musical Fidelity A5

What we finally got as a replacement for the RA-1062 (not enough headroom sometimes for the 804S - we have a pretty big and extremely dampening room) was the Musical Fidelity A5. Enough juice to drive the speakers very well and soundwise they were all not very far apart. The RA-1062 sometimes had trouble driving harder speaker loads but the rest wasn't that different at all. They sounded slightly different (but moving a meter in the room made a bigger difference), but not too much to justify the higher expense for a "better" one.

In the end it came down to one thing: money. Classé looks nice, but the prices are just insane for a VERY disputable gain. My Rotel dealer didn't want to do the promised "full price trade-in" while still giving good prices on the new stuff so we ended up paying the same for a MF A5 (with warranty) on Audiogon as we would have paid for a Rotel RC-1082/RB-1080 combo AND we could keep the old amplifier for the second room. We added a MF A5 cd player so we are able to have a complete setup in a second room with the RA-1062 and RCD-1072 we had.

The listening tests mentioned above were quite a good experience for me as they hardened the experience I made years (actually over a decade) ago: amplifier don't sound that much different. There are small differences but rarely enough to justify higher expense as long they are powerful enough. The money saved is WAY better invested in speakers, room treatment, vacation, restaurants, source components, new laptop and so on ...

[DeanP]

Well I just finished doing the test. This is what I did.
cd-->Yammy-->gainclone--> r speaker
cd-->Yammy-->Luxman--> l speaker
Sub turned off through player and Yammy. Yammy set up for having only mains.
I turned up the Luxman until I got the same volume from both speakers.
It wasn't a perfect set up, but it gave me a good idea...

Now I stand corrected. ops:
They sounded the same but actually the Luxman did not sound as crisp and had more distortion when turned up. When I turned up the "bass" on the Luxman, only then did it create more bass, but the sound was crappy!
At least it gave me a feeling that I indeed have an okay HT system and that I need to make bigger bass bins for my HT.
Now out to get more drivers...must make bigger bass bins. :twisted:

[whoaru99]

The mind is a powerful thing.

Doesn't hurt to have a consistent test methodology and an actual A/B comparison too.

[cug]

Now out to get more drivers...must make bigger bass bins. :twisted:

That's the real pioneer attitude ...