Should my next purchase be a subwoofer or preamp?

[george_k]

I want to get some outside perspective on what my next upgrade should be. Current setup is listed in my profile.

I don't presently have a subwoofer and I'm using my receiver as a preamp/processor.

Planned upgrades are to add a Cary SLP-98 tube preamp and a Velodyne DD10...I don't know which I should do first?

[Dean100]

What are you using your system for mainly? 2 channel music, Home Theater?
What percentage of each?

[Hamblis]

Interesting choice. What gives you the biggest itch? Do you yearn for an essential improvement in musicality or do you want more depth, scale and some slam? I think if you are clear about what you want most, your choice becomes clear cut. If you really are torn, then I'd go for the sw as it will add benefits to music and soundtracks.

Steve

[george_k]

I built the system mainly for 2ch and even though I don't put in as much time listening to music as to do watching tv,movies or playing games it still place more emphasis on it.

The two shortcomings of my present setup is musicality and bass output.

For the musical part I find that although my system produces good sound (any regular person would probably find himself in audio nirvana) eventually after say 30-40 minutes or so things start to get just a tad irritating but not enough for me to want to stop listening. I don't listen at excessively loud volumes, 70-85dB would be the range of volume I listen at from the listening position depending on my mood. I recently added the NAD C272 power amp and switched my receiver to preamp duties, that did wonders in terms of improving the clarity and bass of the sound and lessening the degree of fatigue.

For bass output, I find that the floorstanders produce a sufficient amount of bass but that doesn't come close to what you'd get out of adding even a smallish subwoofer.

[twitch54]

"upgradeitis", a lovely disease if there ever was one !

musicality and bass.......... with regards to your choices here are my thoughts....... Cary slp-98 - a sweet sounding pre-amp with noticeable "tube warmth". I assume you have auditioned one, if not, do so, for it is far from neutral.

Velodyne "DD" series of subs - I love 'um ! got the DD-15 myself, with the onboard SMS Bass mg'mt / Eq set-up they are very good. A min 25% off msrp should be expected.

now the third part of the equation which you did not mention is your room....
the size and it's present acoustic treatment. Alot of your perceived bass defecencies are room related I can almost guarantee. Your 703's are rated to 30hz, they probably start to roll off around 40-50hz, not too bad unless you have a room in excess of 300 sq ft.

Anyways my suggestion would be.....get yourself a top-rate preamp, put some time into assessing your "room' and then decide on your sub.

[dtb300]

Agree with Twich on the Pre-Amp first, then a Sub.

Depending on your budget will dictate new or used.

There are many great used Pre's on Audiogon to choose from: ARC, Cary, CJ, etc. to name a few I would suggest as a starter. I am from the Tube Pre, Solid State Amp camp for system setup, hence my suggestions.

[george_k]

A min 25% off msrp should be expected.

Really? I didn't know that, I'll have to push for a better price! But, the dealer that sells DD subs near me also sell McIntosh products. I was considering a C220 since it's priced almost the same as the SLP-98. The dealer wouldn't budget below the US MSRP :-(

That's the bitch about living here (Montreal) every audio dealer is a virtual monopoly on the brands they carry so negotiating with them is difficult. It's very rare that you'll find more than one dealer selling the same brand (except for brands like B&W, Paradigm, PSB) they negotiate for exclusivity. I know, for sure, that this is what one dealer did when he recently acquired Primaluna. If the difference is as substantial as you say I might just take a trip down south to get better pricing, 25% discount more than pays for gas both ways.

now the third part of the equation which you did not mention is your room....

Shoot! I meant to talk about the room in my previous post but got caught up talking/thinking about the other stuff and I forgot :-)

The room is a shared living room + eating area (living room on one side, eating area on the other. The total room is about 25ft x 15ft (450 sq ft) and the layout is indicated the attachment. I find that the speakers orientated as shown produces the best imaging (tried them along the 15ft wall and didn't like it). Speakers are pulled out as far as possible from the wall (I wish I could pull them out even more but I'm afraid somebody might bump into them)

Now the problem with my place is that it's an apartment so I don't want to spend any money treating the room because what may work for this room in terms of quantity of material needed and aesthetics may not work in the place I move into next (might rent again in the future or I might buy). So I don't want to spend money on room treatments just yet.

I assume you have auditioned one, if not do so, for it is far from neutral.

Actually I haven't auditioned one, the problem with living in Montreal is that there isn't enough dealers stocking Cary stuff, the only guy that does is too cheap to have a demo unit. I am basing my opinion on what others have said and what I think I'm after. My plan was to build a very neutral sounding system and then introduce a bit of warmth at the preamp end. I tend to listen solely losslessly encoded music via my squeezebox and some of the recordings (if not most) are bright sounding. I also think the slp-98 will fair well for movies, tv and gaming (not going to buy expensive NOS tubes so re-tubing won't cost more than $50 or so every couple of years)

[wkhanna]

I am with everyone else, get a good pre.
When it comes to HiFi 2ch, your pre does much to define the sound of your system. I might add Rogue and Audible Illusions to the list available on Agon, too.

[NMG]

You need both :B

Personally, unless your musical tastes don't include any music with deep bass or beats that "thump", I think I'd go for a quality sub first. Although the 703's are a fine speaker, I think adding a properly configured sub to the system would take it to another level.

[zmanbands]

Go with the pre amp first.

More than any other component, matching a sub to your room and speakers is a move with many variables associated. And as you say if you move even if you get a good fit on the sub, the new room and sub may not fit. Velodyne has a website and the moderator is exceptional on helping pick the right sub. My guess is the DD 10 is way too small. If the 703 is an efficient speaker you would need a DD 18 in your space, perhaps 2 of them. The ceiling height is needed to calculate room volume. You have at least 3000 ft cubed. BTW I had a DD 12 and and 97db klipsch RF 7's and could not hear the sub in a room smaller than yours. I swapped it out to a DLSR 5000 [ I think that's the nomenclature] at half the cost and bingo. The 5000 is much more efficient. Get the pre amp first. Good luck.

[george_k]

My guess is the DD 10 is way too small. If the 703 is an efficient speaker you would need a DD 18 in your space, perhaps 2 of them. The ceiling height is needed to calculate room volume. You have at least 3000 ft cubed. BTW I had a DD 12 and and 97db klipsch RF 7's and could not hear the sub in a room smaller than yours.

Wow, and here I thought the DD10 would be plenty. Before living in my current place I lived in a similar space in terms of the picture above but the length and width dimensions were much smaller maybe 60-70% of the ones indicated above.

At that time my system consisted of a pair of Athena Technologies bookshelfs and a B&W ASW300 (8" woofer, 100watt amp). For that size room the ASW did a pretty good job of filling in the low end, I had no complaints except when it came to hometheatre movie rumble the sub would max out and it's protection circuitry would kick in.

So based on that experience I figured a 10" higher excursion driver would be enough and if it wasn't I could always add a second.

One thing is for sure though, if I do move in the future it will be in a similar sized apartment (or condo) so I imagine the living area will be as big. I haven't measured the ceiling height but I would guess it to be 8-9ft.

I think the best thing to do when I do purchase the sub would be to arrange for an in home demo. Though I expect that the dealer won't have any in stock as is the case with most of the hifi places around here. If that's the case I'll see what velodyne suggests.

[deke]

If you have to pick one, I think a sub would give you the most noticeable improvement - it's not like you have crappy equipment.

[whoaru99]

I vote sub too.

[gd]

If you have to pick one, I think a sub would give you the most noticeable improvement - it's not like you have crappy equipment.

Agreed.

[dtb300]

If you have to pick one, I think a sub would give you the most noticeable improvement - it's not like you have crappy equipment.

And I would respectfully disagree here That is unless the OP is strictly looking for more low end in their music. If better overall sound is the goal, then the Pre will be a better choice, as the sub will just address the lower octaves.

While receivers of today have made some great strides in sounding better especially for the $$$ you will spend on them (and the NAD is a nice piece in the receiver world), a quality Pre Amp (as those mentioned in this thread) will be significantly better across the board - again this is IMO based on my experience hearing both worlds.

All the replies so far are very subjective from all of us, the poster needs to perform the comparison themselves and decide if the cost difference is worth the sound difference.

[zmanbands]

Velodyne Forum Link

Hi George k. Curt is the moderator with 60 years experience. Page 140 is the last page on the forum. Link. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...04306&page=140

[george_k]

Hi everybody thanks for the replies,

It's still hard to choose but I'm going with the preamp since I don't know what sort of space I will move into next or what sort of sub(s) I'll need to fill the space. I'll address room acoustics and the subwoofer matter in one shot.

[twitch54]

Smart move George, let us know which one decide upon.

[dknightd]

I'd do the room first. Nearly all rooms need broadband bass absorbers, and absorbers at first reflection points. These are easy to take with you.

[george_k]

I'd do the room first. Nearly all rooms need broadband bass absorbers, and absorbers at first reflection points. These are easy to take with you.

Yes but the extent of panels (i.e. qty), the size of each panel and the aesthetics such as color etc may vary from this place and the next.

To me room treatments are a necessary evil, I have yet to see a space that looks better with treatments than without.

Smart move George, let us know which one decide upon.

It'll most likely be an SLP-98 unless I find an used SLP-88 or 74 at a good price.