saw a Mc tube matched with ML summits

[peterS]

am I confused or is a tube with electrostats a BIG no no

[Karma]

HI Peter,
Yes, you are confused. SOME tube amps work well with SOME electrostatics. In fact, if you can find the magic combination, tubes are the first choice.

I have Martin Logan CLSIIA electrostatics being driven off my Audio Research D250 MKII Servo tube power amp. This combo has been together for about 15 years. This amp is very powerful (250W/channel) and stable. The sound is to die for. Really!!

One must be careful though. Many tube amps cannot drive the cruel high frequency impedance of most stats. However, Audio Research amps seem to have no trouble.

Sparky

[gianni]

I would think so with all but the stoutest tube amps - not for your garden variety budget tube amp. You saw it but did you hear it?

[peterS]

my understanding of tube amps is very elementary but from what ive read the do not like much of any impedance change- i was very surprised to see that

tube amps aesthetics have always interested me but in the few times ive auditioned ive been unable to detect the "sound" probably because there were too many variables

i few years back i bought books on tube amp design and found that each of the author's was strongly opposed to them and actually preached the merits of tube pre amp stages coupled with solid state amplifier stages- thoughts?

gianni- there were no salesmen to be found nor was i in the mood to deal with one
on previous occasions ive found the summits to be the best sounding above 200hz from anything ive heard but the particular set up i've heard seemed to have what i can best describe as phase or time alignment issues below 200hz as the sound stage went to hell - fed by a rotel 1080 i believe

[NonSense]

I would throw out there that the Martin Logans are not typical electrostats. They have the advantage of a powered LF driver. I would expect this reduces the demands on the amplification when compared to a full range panel.

[twitch54]

I would throw out there that the Martin Logans are not typical electrostats. They have the advantage of a powered LF driver. I would expect this reduces the demands on the amplification when compared to a full range panel.

actually most M/L's DO NOT have a powered bass driver, it's the Summitt's and Vantage's that do.

Come on over and check us out at www.martinloganowners.com many of the members have and love the Tube possibilities with hybrid electrostatics !!

[Karma]

HI twitch,
Good to talk to you here. I just want to clarify for the other posters that ML CLS series were full range electrostatics with no bass driver or built-in bass amplifier. So, the CLS's present the full bore load to the amp.

Sparky

[twitch54]

HI twitch,
Good to talk to you here. I just want to clarify for the other posters that ML CLS series were full range electrostatics with no bass driver or built-in bass amplifier. So, the CLS's present the full bore load to the amp.

Sparky

Hello Spark ! Exactly stated and thats why those models of M/L's present the amplifier challenges that alot of the "Maggie" crowd has to deal with.

[warnerwh]

Stats are a brutal load but with a tube amp driving the midrange and treble the sound can be to die for just as stated. You have to hear it to understand. Imo it's of the most realistic sound there is. No SS amps driving cone drivers sound anything like it that I've heard. Go listen and you'll be shocked if you've not been exposed to this type of sound before.

[Karma]

i few years back i bought books on tube amp design and found that each of the author's was strongly opposed to them and actually preached the merits of tube pre amp stages coupled with solid state amplifier stages- thoughts?

HI Peter,
Topic 1:
An electrostatic speaker presents largely a capacitive load to the amplifier. If you recall your theory, the effective resistance (impedance) of a capacitor is inversely proportional to frequency. This is called capacitive reactance which can be thought of as AC resistance (otherwise known as impedance). Thus, as the audio frequency increases, the impedance decreases. An electrostatic speaker presents to the amp its lowest value at the highest frequencies. Conversely, as the frequency decreases, the impedance increases as the frequency is lowered. In the case of the CLS series, the lowest impedance of 1 to 2 ohms occurs at 20kHz; very difficult for any amplifier. Tube amps must be very stable for this to work. Solid state amps also will have a difficult time of it if they are the slightest bit unstable and many are. Electrostatic speakers usually are happy with only the best amplifiers either tube or solid state.

Conventional speakers have an impedance characteristic that's dominated by inductance. Inductance behaves the opposite of capacitance. As frequency increases the impedance increases and reduces as the frequency is lowered. Thus, conventional speakers (including Maggies) present the most difficult load at low frequencies. This is also a challange but a different one.

Topic 2:
I have tried both high end tube and solid state preamps in combination with tube and solid state power amps of equal quality. Obviously, all the combinations work. But which works best? I have concluded that mixing and matching technologies is not a good idea for the best sound. Rather than getting steak you tend to get stew. The positive qualities of each technology are lost in a general mish-mash of unrelated sonic personalities.

I'll take it further. Once you have decided on a sonic personality that you prefer, stick with it and optimize it. I don't even like to mix and match manufacturers within a given technology. I don't like stew.

Many audiophiles are attacted to tube pre's paired with solid state power amps. I see only one reason for this. It's cheaper due to reduced amplifier maintenance. There is no doubt that the tube/SS hybrid system is more trouble free. But, ask yourself why we are in this hobby? I can answer. For me, it's the sound. Otherwise, why bother? Thus, I do not mix and match. Clearly, this is a personal decision one must make when considering priorties.

Sparky

[TomDac]

Hey kids.. Daddy's home!

[Alaric]

Hey kids.. Daddy's home!

This is relevant because..... :huh:

[TomDac]

Sorry, I added my signature after the post, thinking it would change on my original post, but it didn't.

It's relevant to a couple of the guys here talking about Logans because we're all friends over on the MartinLogan Club ... http://www.martinloganowners.com

:

[Karma]

Hey everyone, Dad's home. We can all eat together tonight.
HI Tom. It's a small world.

Sparky

[twitch54]

Hey kids.. Daddy's home!

damn, he caught us playing after curfew !!!

[TomDac]

Just stumbled onto this site searching for information on the Halo C1 and see you guys here.. cool!

[Chris D]

Yes, there is ALL sorts of cool stuff here in the Guide.

[DrJRapp]

on previous occasions ive found the summits to be the best sounding above 200hz from anything ive heard but the particular set up i've heard seemed to have what i can best describe as phase or time alignment issues below 200hz as the sound stage went to hell - fed by a rotel 1080 i believe

Probably setup. The Summits are bi-polar speakers and any hard surface (such as glass) behind them or even if they are too close to the front wall, can cause exactly what you hear. Get the setup right and nothing can compare at all frequencys.

OBTW, IMHO The Summits sing best with amps better than the Rotel RB1080. It's too grainy.