Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

[misterdoggy]

I think what everybody is losing sight of is not about power.

Its not about theoretical calculations in physics.

In a pure term you want to reproduce the original sound.

What happens between the original recorded music and when it hits our ears in our listening rooms is not always the same.

Its mostly about limiting "loss"

Loss can mean "influences that change the sound along the way"

In the perfect world, there would be no loss and exact duplication.

Are there differences in Amps, you bet, Why ? Different construction creates different influences

[Victor]

Arneson,

Let me prove to you that 2 is equal to 5. Look here
2=5, I then multiply both sides by the same number, - zero.
2*0=5*0
Naturally I get 0=0, - so the right hand side is equal to the left hand side.
Therefore 2 is in fact equal to 5!

Great logic, eh? Kind of like the amp testing…

[Victor]

Victor, wow... don't take it the wrong way, but you're thinking way too much into it... unnecessarily! ha ha

Though you have valid points and I do concur with your thinking, one should never listen to your points when deciding between two different amps. Putting way too much thought into it when it should just be your ears that are happy (since that's what this hobby is all about). The question starts off with whether or not amps sound different. Yes, you can bring out the technical difference, but one shouldn't buy audio equipment off of numbers anyways. And yes, if one listened to amp A on Monday, and amp B on Tuesday, one wouldn't be able to remember the exact difference. However, that shouldn't matter anyways since if you take a favorite CD to test on both amps, regardless of what day, one would know which one will sound better to them. Do you disagree? I just think you're putting (and suggesting) way too much thought into something isn't (to our ears). :T

Are you saying that thinking less is better then thinking more? My argument is not aimed at changing people’s mind regarding which amp does IT for them. My argument is a simple voice of reason and nothing more. Throw the reason away and you have anarchy of thought. Personally I like to think that there is a reason behind what I do.

Your approach is different; - I have no problem with that.

In any case, - before you spend your hard earned $5000 on this 100 Watt power amp that sounds so good to you, don’t you think that it might be a good idea to know why you are doing it in objective terms?

You see, - the $5k in your pocket are real, - are you perceptions just as real?

regards,
Victor

[Victor]

misterdoggy,

I absolutely agree with most of what you are saying except for this,

Are there differences in Amps, you bet, Why ? Different construction creates different influences

Different constructions do not create different influences here, because all those constructions must by definition produce the system with the same specifications. It makes no difference at all what components you use as long as the end result is a linear system with low noise and distortion and adequate power.

Victor

[misterdoggy]

misterdoggy,
I absolutely agree with most of what you are saying except for this,
Different constructions do not create different influences here, because all those constructions must by definition produce the system with the same specifications.
Victor

That makes no sense.

With so much design incorporated they don't follow the same build design even if respecting the specifications so the result has to have differences.

Its like hitting your head against a brick wall trying to reason this......

Does a Rotel 1080 (200 watts channel) sound the same as a Mark Levinson 33H (150 watts channel). If you tell me in a blind test, that they do, I will sell everything I own in audio and take up the violin.

[Karma]

HI All,
Victor, clearly the problem here is you can't hear worth a flip. Trade in your ears and quit bothereing us with your prattle. You embarass your profession. I have even less sympathy with your rediculous view than you do mine.

Sparky

[Victor]

That makes no sense.

With so much design incorporated they don't follow the same build design even if respecting the specifications so the result has to have differences.

I am sorry that my reasoning does not make sense to you. It would perhaps surprise you to discover that nearly 90% of all linear power amps today have the same circuit topology with only minor variation to differentiate between products that different companies manufacture. You are eating the same cake with different icing on it.

So, I would say that circuit architecture is not a part of this equation to the extend that you think it is. Components are not of significant importance either, with perhaps capacitors being a minor exception to this rule. And even here most engineers know what to use and where to use it.

As an example, - there are successful vacuum tube amps that have very low distortion and they are indistinguishable from solid state amps. It is not about components used, - it is about system design and consequently, it is about numbers and numbers only.

Two amps with similar characteristics will perform the same or similar regardless of whom manufactured them or how much you paid for them. Countless tests proved that beyond any doubt and furthermore the theory as we know it and physics as we understand it supports that view.

Does a Rotel 1080 (200 watts channel) sound the same as a Mark Levinson 33H (150 watts channel). If you tell me in a blind test, that they do, I will sell everything I own in audio and take up the violin.

It is difficult to compete with the likes of 33H. Its power handling is superb, however unnecessarily it is, - with 600Watt into 2 Ohm. What speaker system do you know that needs that?

Do they ‘sound’ the same? Yes they do, without any doubt it. Both are excellent amps, with Levinson giving you more power into difficult loads and Rotel being marginally cleaner distortion wise.

As far as your ears are concerned, - you will never sense the difference, as both amps deliver well below any known threshold of audibility.

[Victor]

HI All,
Victor, clearly the problem here is you can't hear worth a flip. Trade in your ears and quit bothereing us with your prattle. You embarass your profession. I have even less sympathy with your rediculous view than you do mine.

Sparky

I am sorry if I bothered you, Sparky. I henceforth free you from reading my posts.

Best regards,
Victor

[misterdoggy]

I am sorry that my reasoning does not make sense to you. It would perhaps surprise you to discover that nearly 90% of all linear power amps today have the same circuit topology with only minor variation to differentiate between products that different companies manufacture. You are eating the same cake with different icing on it.

So, I would say that circuit architecture is not a part of this equation to the extend that you think it is. Components are not of significant importance either, with perhaps capacitors being a minor exception to this rule. And even here most engineers know what to use and where to use it.

As an example, - there are successful vacuum tube amps that have very low distortion and they are indistinguishable from solid state amps. It is not about components used, - it is about system design and consequently, it is about numbers and numbers only.

Two amps with similar characteristics will perform the same or similar regardless of whom manufactured them or how much you paid for them. Countless tests proved that beyond any doubt and furthermore the theory as we know it and physics as we understand it supports that view.



It is difficult to compete with the likes of 33H. Its power handling is superb, however unnecessarily it is, - with 600Watt into 2 Ohm. What speaker system do you know that needs that?

Do they ‘sound’ the same? Yes they do, without any doubt it. Both are excellent amps, with Levinson giving you more power into difficult loads and Rotel being marginally cleaner distortion wise.

As far as your ears are concerned, - you will never sense the difference, as both amps deliver well below any known threshold of audibility.

And still I can tell you every Amp I have owned has sounded different even the 433 and the 432.

I believe you when you say YOU don't hear the difference, but I do !!

If you can't tell the difference and would like to explain it with diagrams and schematics and physics or even that your dog can't tell the difference, this still doesn't change the reality for me.

You could talk from today until 2010 non-stop, showing me diagrams, charts, blind tests, experts in psychology and neuro-physics, and still that could not tell me what I am hearing does not exist.

I believe what I see with my eyes and hear with my ears.

Do you think that someone who has enough intelligence to make the kind of $$ to be able to buy a 33H $30k is Stupid enough in another realm as to throw away his money.

Give an intelligent person credit enough to be able to recognize and decide just as well as he decided when he earned his money, being sharp an watching corners, to be just as sharp to hype and bulls--t.

I make a good living and can afford to throw away $$ on a system, and I have made errors along the way. But I know when money is well spent and the better the Amplifier, the better the sound. period

[Karma]

HI Victor,
You have been ignored by me for quite a long time. But sometimes your provocations are too loud to shut out. I don't need your permission to continue to do so and I will.

Sparky

[audioqueso]

Are you saying that thinking less is better then thinking more?

YES! Because there is nothing to dwell into when it comes to our ears. If one prefers one amp over another, but still continues to listen to try to get more, they are just creating a psychological preference. And it's those people that get suckered by the dealers.

Throw the reason away and you have anarchy of thought.

Exactly. And that's how it should be since each and every one of us are unique. Example: A lot of people here like Rotel. I don't because I find that it makes half of my music sound too polite. Am I wrong? No. Are the other half wrong? No. It's your personal taste. You don't need to have a REASON. It's just a taste.

In any case, - before you spend your hard earned $5000 on this 100 Watt power amp that sounds so good to you, don’t you think that it might be a good idea to know why you are doing it in objective terms?

No... and yes. And let me explain why.

Do I think that it might be a good idea to know why I am doing it in objective terms? Yes.
Say I have $5000 to spend on an amp. Most people on this board know a thing or two of what is available in our market of interest. So it's not like we're going to go to Best Buy and tell them, "I have $5000 to spend on an amp. Give me the best that you have", and spend money stupidly. And if someone doesn't know, then they come to this board or others to learn. Do a search and you'll find a thread not too long ago when some guy came in and said that he had $25k (or something like that) to spend, and wanted to know what was he best route. So before anyone here goes and $5k on what sounds good to us, we already know what routes to take.

Do I think that it might be a good idea to know why I am doing it in objective terms? No.
I say no to your question because if one thinks the way you mention all the time, they will never be satisfied with what they have. I will call out Misterdoggy for example. He has a system that many of us would love to own someday. He has a great system. And as we all have heard from him, he said he is done (for now). To his ears, he has found his perfect setup, right. But if he always to dwell into the numbers and theories, then of course he will never be satisfied.

So that's why I say that even though you make valid points and they are correct, one should only listen to their ears when determining if one amp sounds better than another, or they will never be satisfied.

[kurtholz]

misterdodgy

just give up, you can't help everybody, wish i had known you were selling that Levinson, i would have liked to have given it a run

thanks for your great insites into your findings

Kurt

[David Meek]

This is enough. Victor. Karma. Cease and desist. You have been warned.

Any more provocative posts from either of you and you'll get a 10-day ban.

Am I being clear enough?

[David Meek]

Again folks, I don't mind differing opinions and intense discussions about the things we are passionate about. But, I won't tolerate insults, name calling, and the like. Let's keep it civil.

[misterdoggy]

Victor,

Can you explain please about what Amplifier you are personally using. How much it cost you if you don't mind and why its as good as a 33h at low decibels (where power isn't a requirement)

Just curious
Doggy

[Aussie Geoff]

Misterdoggy,

Your previous post appears to me to be very close to an incitement for further trangressions by Victor... It would be easy to see some of your recent posts in this thead as encouraging the argument to continue... :cry: I hope I am misinterpreting your enthusiasm but...

Victor - please don't reply to Misterdoggy's post - we do not need this back and forth to continue and I hope you do not want to invoke the ban from any of the Moderators...

Geoff

[misterdoggy]

Geoff,

Actually I never try to "incite". If anyone takes it this way, then accept my apologies.

I am only trying to enter the mind of someone who thinks differently than me and understand his point of view.

How to rationalize on either side of the argument has a basis in the decision's we make.

In other words, we back up our beliefs with our actions.

If someone believes there is no difference in any Amp and can explain how they came to own what they own, how much they spent and why, I can look at his/her point of view more clearly.

I absolutely 100% always believe "everyone" when they say they actually "heard" or "saw" something, when its a personal experience, whether its in my camp or not.

Just trying to figure out the thought processes of Victor's reasoning. Not Incitement.

added: I think Victor has every right to express his beliefs and I have no bad words or feelings for anyone. Frustration, but anything but positive interaction as everyone in the Forum who knows me can concur.

All the best to Victor

[ahcryky]

This is enough. Victor. Karma. Cease and desist. You have been warned.

Any more provocative posts from either of you and you'll get a 10-day ban.

Am I being clear enough?

Why is this thread still going? I think there have been more warnings then actual posts.

[Kobus]

Why is this thread still going? I think there have been more warnings then actual posts.

What is the purpose of your comment.

If you do not like this a thread like this, why come here?

There are many threads I do not like. I just don't go there.

Kobus

[Kobus]

One can think of a Power Amplifier as an interface or, as analogy would have it, a microscope that amplifies the image without distorting it.

Hi Victor (If you are still out there)

Victor, I very much like your comments and do "buy" a lot of it.

You statement above made me think however.

Being very much into photography, I know one lense with the same specs is not the same as the next one that costs 5 times as much. I can see the difference. There are people that can not see it, or rather, does not notice it. That does not matter, I know it exists.

The point is, both are just pieces of glass, properly designed to do a job. The one just does the job better.

Anyway, thanks for your insight and please feel free to continue in the debate.

PS: Maybe it is good that you did not join us earlier, as then the thread would have been shut down long ago.

Thanks all

Kobus

[misterdoggy]

Being very much into photography, I know one lense with the same specs is not the same as the next one that costs 5 times as much. I can see the difference. There are people that can not see it, or rather, does not notice it. That does not matter, I know it exists.

The point is, both are just pieces of glass, properly designed to do a job. The one just does the job better.

Kobus

Kobus,

This is not a bad analogy, because you can buy el cheapo camera with lens' with the same specs as a Carl Zeiss, or Leica, Hasselblad but you "can" see the difference.

The larger the blowup the more apparent, like more power in an Amplifier the more you are pushing the limit.

and Victors comparison to magnifying glass ie: 20X power might magnify the same, but in my business I use lens' all the time to inspect Posters and there is nothing like a good quality lens of the same magnification and specs in comparison to a lesser quality lens.

[pearsall001]

Geoff,

Actually I never try to "incite". If anyone takes it this way, then accept my apologies.

I am only trying to enter the mind of someone who thinks differently than me and understand his point of view.

How to rationalize on either side of the argument has a basis in the decision's we make.

In other words, we back up our beliefs with our actions.

If someone believes there is no difference in any Amp and can explain how they came to own what they own, how much they spent and why, I can look at his/her point of view more clearly.

I absolutely 100% always believe "everyone" when they say they actually "heard" or "saw" something, when its a personal experience, whether its in my camp or not.

Just trying to figure out the thought processes of Victor's reasoning. Not Incitement.

added: I think Victor has every right to express his beliefs and I have no bad words or feelings for anyone. Frustration, but anything but positive interaction as everyone in the Forum who knows me can concur.

All the best to Victor

I'm with misterdoggy on this one. I've always wondered if guys like Victor & others actually "walk the talk", so to speak in their belief that all amps sound the same. From reading their posts & the way they rattle off A/B test after test where not a single person could hear a difference in any amp regardless of it's price. If they truly believe this then their systems should consist of nothing more than a "budget receiver" anything else would just be down right foolish on their part. I even suspect some of these guys are probably quite content with nothing more than a tabletop alarm clock radio. So Please Victor & you other guys post your system so we can see if you are a true believer in your own comical beliefs.

[whoaru99]

I submit that the properties of optics that make them better are clearly identifiable and measureable and are based on scientific principle/reasoning why they are better.

It would be interesting to know whether or not Zeiss, et al., formulate and gauge the "image" of their lenses by eye, or by extremely precise and repeatable measurements.

OTOH, the unmeasureable is often the point of contention in audio which is precisely why debates such as this could (and will) go forever.

[whoaru99]

I'm with misterdoggy on this one. I've always wondered if guys like Victor & others actually "walk the talk", so to speak in their belief that all amps sound the same. From reading their posts & the way they rattle off A/B test after test where not a single person could hear a difference in any amp regardless of it's price. If they truly believe this then their systems should consist of nothing more than a "budget receiver" anything else would just be down right foolish on their part. I even suspect some of these guys are probably quite content with nothing more than a tabletop alarm clock radio. So Please Victor & you other guys post your system so we can see if you are a true believer in your own comical beliefs.

Well, if we are going to single out equipment and start grinding on systems, I see that you have paired a Behringer pro amp along with a Van Alstine.

Evidently, a difference in sound of these amps is not present, or not enough to concern you?

Truly, I don't mean that in a rude way, and am not trying to disparage either piece, but it would seem quite relevant to the topic, yes?

Logically, in a HT system, the front soundstage is rather critical to match by all accounts. Yet, these two amps many would say are from rather opposite ends of the spectrum.

And, to some of the other points, most of my friends (and probably most of the world outside a number of these forums) could care less if their music came from a clock radio, Ipod, or from a high-end system, it's just something to fill in the quiet to them.

[Rolyasm]

As I see it...

There is no spoon !

Neo

[pearsall001]

Ah, you must be one of the other guys. And yes there is quite a difference in the two amps. At first I ran two bridged A500's for my mains. They did a respectfull job for the money. Then along came Frank's OmegaStar 440EX for my mains. Well to say the least the A500's were dethroned in a hurry because my ears told me so. Now a single A500 is pulling center duty for now before I pick up Frank's 3 channel amp. I've shared my system for all to see, now how about you? Don't have anything to hide now do you?

[whoaru99]

The "other" guys? No, not really.

I do believe there can be differences, I just don't believe they are as clear and obvious as many make them out to be - based on my own somewhat limited testing. My friends are not into this sort of thing and I live in a fairly small town so it's not too easy to set up get togethers for more comparisons.

I have a four pics and HT gear listed in AVS forum under the same name I go by here if you are curious. My 2-ch system is not listed there, but there are various references to it in this thread and others here and on AVS.

The only thing I'm embarassed about, if you call it that, is that I have not incorporated room treatments as of yet.

I used to spend quite a large chunk of my "play" money on stereo gear. But, trying to keep up with the Jones in HT, car audio, and a 2-ch system just seemed to be neverending. Also, to my perception, I'd gotten to the point of significantly diminishing returns in most areas. At some point, I'll probably go to a HD flat screen TV of some sort, and I've thought about going to a IB sub setup, and as mentioned, room treatments.

Other hobbies demand $ and attention too such as boating/fishing, motorcycling, snowmobiling, and hunting. Not enough $$ to have TOTL everything, so therefore, I'm pretty value oriented and try to find out very carefully where the limited $ are best spent.

[audioqueso]

I think this thread needs to be closed. No point in keeping it open when people just keep using it as fighting grounds.

[pearsall001]

whoaru99,

Do yourself a favor & consider looking onto room treatments. It will be the best dollar for dollar addition to your system. If interested shoot me a PM & I'll be glad to pass on some info I have.

[pearsall001]

audioqueso,

Who's fighting? Man you need to lighten up. There's some good dialogue & info being passed on here. Let's keep it going.

[Arneson]

No do not totally stop your discussion, and yes stop the bickering.
There are some gems here. IMHO

[AptosJeff]

Yes, there is some good stuff here. Let's try to keep it civil. whoaru99 and Victor are not in the majority opinion, but are making some good points. I for one, am interested in what Victor has to say because he has knowledge of amp design.

Victor - on the technical side, most of what you say is valid. However, in your comments on specs and testing, most appear to apply to steady state operation. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of transient testing, which is so important for music reproduction. How about looking at the complex response to an impulse input with real loads? I have tested "linear" devices that don't look very ideal when tested this way. I'm sure there are other more current methods of testing the transient performance of amps.

Also, you have mentioned several aspects of amps that don't affect the sound; how about telling us what does affect it? You obviously have some knowledge about this and I'd sure like to know. We all want to learn what we can from these forums.

On the subjective side, I do have trouble with some of your statements like:

"So, - applying the above criteria, the conclusion is still the same, - the CD Player, or a DAC, does not produce any sound as long as its output is at 16-bits precision and its frequency response is flat throughout the audible frequency range, - approximately 22-17 kHz."

and

"One thing you might want to consider though, - your ears are connected to your brain. And your brain processes the information. You brain is incapable of storing the details of audible data for longer then 20 seconds."

With these statements, are you serious or just making a point? I mean yes, people do exaggerate claims about "this" being better that "that", and I think many claims about quality are related to how much money one has spent. But to say that any cdp with 16 bit res and flat response is comparable to any other is very hard to believe. As far as our brains being limited to 20s, well some details may be lost, but not all. I am no expert, but I've studied perception enough to think that is not plausible.

Thanks to all who have contributed, and hope I've not offended anyone.

[Snap]

So that's why I say that even though you make valid points and they are correct, one should only listen to their ears when determining if one amp sounds better than another, or they will never be satisfied.

:agree:
Audio is right on! The owners ears are all that matters.

I will admit that I have learned some high speed intel from this thread. Nothing that I can use in the real world, but it is nice to know.

I still find it hard to believe that the MARKET would pay 25K and UP for these amps if a $150 amp with the same power sounded the same. Does that make sense? I mean there is a sucker born ever minute but dang..... not that many is there?

I think that this thread is like the God/No-God debate. Either side can talk till their blue in the face and the other is NOT going to change his mind. Unless God himself showed up I doubt seriously that some die hard is going to change his mind. And that is what we have here.

NOTE: We should be men and women enough to "agree to disagree" with out having the mods have to step in. It only makes our forum look silly.

I have said it before, Audio has said it...... your ears, your perception, your money....... your stuff.

And perception in this hobby, is reality!

[Snap]

I have an IDEA

Hey I was just wondering. If you took AMP A and AMP B and used an O scope couldn't you "SEE" the difference of the output? And I am sure that some might disagree with me on this. But in "Theory" wouldn't the CLEANER sign wave out put be the cleaner sounding amp? As we all know our ears are....well they are human controled and may or may not hear a diff. But an O Scope would be able to see "possibly" the output sign wave and see if one amp is cleaner than the other.

Now the problem is the OTHER stuff in the system. Your speakers may not be good enough to even produce the difference of sound. But removing all that from the system, the O scope might give you a good answer to this question.

Just a thought.

[whoaru99]

Measurements have been suggested, but typically are disregarded in the context of what sounds better.

Take for instance tube gear. In comparision to most SS gear, it does not measure out very well, but there is quite a loyal following that would have nothing else.

[whoaru99]

BTW, misterdoggy, I like your avitar. Did you design it?

[Chris D]

Yeah, that proof always makes me laugh. Easy to prove its validity, but so I don't spoil the fun, I'll omit the proof here so others may try.

[Russ L]

OTOH, the unmeasureable is often the point of contention in audio which is precisely why debates such as this could (and will) go forever.

Thats so true. Its funny how the people who say an amp is just an amp and a circuit is just a circuit that all sound the same... there is no measurable difference...then point to unmeasurable differences as to why we think there is a difference...that is we're fooled by our subconcious biases induced by marketing campaigns -Russ

[Victor]

...If you can't tell the difference and would like to explain it with diagrams and schematics and physics or even that your dog can't tell the difference, this still doesn't change the reality for me.

You could talk from today until 2010 non-stop, showing me diagrams, charts, blind tests, experts in psychology and neuro-physics, and still that could not tell me what I am hearing does not exist.

I believe what I see with my eyes and hear with my ears.

Do you think that someone who has enough intelligence to make the kind of $$ to be able to buy a 33H $30k is Stupid enough in another realm as to throw away his money.

Give an intelligent person credit enough to be able to recognize and decide just as well as he decided when he earned his money, being sharp an watching corners, to be just as sharp to hype and bulls--t.

I make a good living and can afford to throw away $$ on a system, and I have made errors along the way. But I know when money is well spent and the better the Amplifier, the better the sound. period

misterdoggy,

I am extremely surprised that you took what I said as a criticism of your audio choices. I never implied that you made ‘stupid’ choices. In fact I did say that 33H by Levinson’s is a very good amp. I respect the choices you made.

Furthermore, why do you think that that money that your gear cost automatically makes it ‘better’? Your gear is very good, - no questions about it, but there is equipment out there that is just as good and might even be better and it does not cost nearly as much.

None of the above belittles or disrespects your choices.

It’s been said here that many of us, including me, would love to have the same set-up as yours.

Yes, I claimed that your 33H, as expensive as it is, works as well as Rotel. The question you might ask is this, - are those amps the same? No they are not. The 33H is built a lot better, has much more involved engineering, has much better component base, has better warrantee, by far superior protection system, much better “WOW” factor and will drive anything you ever throw at it, while Rotel will come short on most of those points. This in itself makes 33H an outstanding piece of engineering and perhaps it is worth the money, - at least for you.

This debate begins to sound like the contest between the two wrist watches, - the $10 Timex and the $5k Rolex. Which one is better? I have both. Rolex is better, - no questions here. But Timex keeps time just as good if not better then Rolex.

Engineering and science only give you one part of the total picture. Now, I see that you have contempt for the scientific approach, - I understand. However, you are using technology where science was used to create it. I submit to you that it is only fair to approach a creature of science through the scientific lens as it were.

Science does not allow human emotion to enter the picture, - we have uncompromising standards by which we analyze amplifiers. They are: Power, THD, Noise, etc. When those parameters are close, then the amps behave in the similar fashion. However, they are not the same amps! I hope that this reasoning does it for you.

You asked about my system.

My amps, and I have a dozen of them, are all built by me. They are not strictly speaking a DIY amps, because I liberally borrowed from the work of others. They are however, internally very similar to what Levinson and Krell and Bryston and Parasound and Classe and Rotel and many others built for years and still building today.

The amps use discrete components with bipolar transistor everywhere. I used a fully complementary front end with Class A biasing and servo control along with cascodes for improved linearity. The output stage is very similar to Bryston models, as it is perhaps the most linear output stage with the least amount of effort, although I use more output transistor then Bryston amps do.

My amps are designed to deliver about 400 Watt into 4 Ohm and they will do 800 into 2 Ohm easily. They are biased into Class A up to about 20 Watts output and then they switch into Class A-B. They also have soft clipping capability, but no sophisticated protection system. They will drive the likes of Apogee Scintilla with ease. They do all of this with the THD better then 0.01% at all frequencies and power levels within the design envelope. The unweighed S/N is nearly 16 bits.

By the way as DIY amps go, my amps are nothing special. There are too many to mention DIY amps out there with the same if not better specs then what I built.

Where does it put my amps on the commercial scale? Certainly on specifications alone, they are better then Rotel and better then anything Levinson or Krell ever produced. They are not quite as good as Boulder or Ampzilla designs and about as good as Bryston. There are few other companies that make amps with better specs then mine. Do I think that they are better sounding then any of those amps? Absolutely NOT!

You also asked to explain why at low power my amp may be as good as 33H. One thing that comes to mind is that at low power both the 33H and my amp function in Class A bias. So both of them operate in the most linear mode possible.

Regards,
Victor

[AptosJeff]

Victor,

Thanks for the info on your amp designs. Can you elaborate on the output stage for those of us not familiar with the Bryston design? Nevermind if you consider it proprietary.

You have suggested that there are some very good amps that are not as expensive as some of the big names mentioned in this thread. Can you give some examples?

[misterdoggy]

I live in France. I drive over the border into Italy 1 hour away and order a Cappuccino and it tastes unbelieveable.

I have a professional coffee maker. Buy the same box of coffee that the Italian's use, from the same distributor.

So...... same machine, same coffee, same specs so to speak, but it isn't as good ? I know how to make a cappuccino.

Could it be the water, (room) could it be my machine (electricity) could it be how I grind the beans (speaker setup) So many things can affect the same specs....

Point is, even though what an amplifier does is within certain specs, the quality of the internal parts, the configuration of the schematic, then add your own variables that either work better or worse with your particular variables and you have a mix that creates a different sound with a different Amp.

This is true anywhere you may go to listen to the same amplifiers (friends house, Hifi store etc)

[Victor]

Victor,

Thanks for the info on your amp designs. Can you elaborate on the output stage for those of us not familiar with the Bryston design? Nevermind if you consider it proprietary.

Yes, I can. Bryston publishes the schematics of their products it its website, so there is nothing proprietary here. Bryston is a real engineering company and they want you to know that.

Bryston uses a quad-complimentary output stage. The idea is not new by any stretch of imagination, - it appeared in electronics texts some 25-30 years ago and as far as I know it was considered by several amplifier designers over the years. But it was Bryston that managed to implement it successfully. This approach tends to be rather unstable, so many turned away from its complexity and went with more mundane topology, Bryston made it to work.

The claim to fame here is that the output stage has small voltage gain and so Bryston decided to use a negative feedback to stabilize the output. So, - all Bryston amps have two feedback structures, - one global around the entire amp, like everybody else, and one local just around the output stage. This local feedback woks to keep the output transistors in their linear range as much as possible.

Usually when amplifier is outputting the power close to its maximum the output transistor begin to enter the saturated region of its operation. This is a non-linear region and so the distortion increases significantly. Nearly all amp manufacturers are forced to live with this reality. Bryston very cleverly uses the feedback and those output transistors operate more linearly at higher power, producing a much better THD numbers. Look at Bryston specs, - 0.005% THD, - pretty good, better then nearly all other amps in the industry.

The output stage uses both NPN and PNP bi-polar transistors to source and sink the current, - hence the name, - quad complimentary structure.

Victor,

You have suggested that there are some very good amps that are not as expensive as some of the big names mentioned in this thread. Can you give some examples?

I would look at the products by ATI, Rotel, Outlaw, there is an excellent Taiwanese company but its name escapes at the moment, Behringer A500 is not bad at all, UcD modules are quite good, but you need to assemble them. There are many more, and I will post once I remember what they are.

Regards,
Victor

[misterdoggy]

misterdoggy,

I am extremely surprised that you took what I said as a criticism of your audio choices.

I didn't I had said "some who" maybe that includes me

This debate begins to sound like the contest between the two wrist watches, - the $10 Timex and the $5k Rolex. Which one is better? I have both. Rolex is better, - no questions here. But Timex keeps time just as good if not better then Rolex.

I have a rolex too, but the analogy is lost because a timex keeps better time. Rolex is still mechanical.

Do I think that they are better sounding then any of those amps? Absolutely NOT!

Regards,
Victor

Here you said it all. Then there is a difference in sound between amplifiers

[AptosJeff]

I live in France. I drive over the border into Italy 1 hour away and order a Cappuccino and it tastes unbelieveable.

I have a professional coffee maker. Buy the same box of coffee that the Italian's use, from the same distributor.

So...... same machine, same coffee, same specs so to speak, but it isn't as good ? I know how to make a cappuccino.

Could it be the water, (room) could it be my machine (electricity) could it be how I grind the beans (speaker setup) So many things can affect the same specs....

Hey misterdoggie, you sound as nutty about espresso as me. Yes, it's very good in Italy, but I've been able to make as good at home with manual or full automatic machines. It does take some effort though. When this thread is finally done, I'll share my secrets and we can discuss ad nauseam!

[misterdoggy]

Hey misterdoggie, you sound as nutty about espresso as me. Yes, it's very good in Italy, but I've been able to make as good at home with manual or full automatic machines. It does take some effort though. When this thread is finally done, I'll share my secrets and we can discuss ad nauseam!

my coffee is pretty good. Professional machine Rancilio, with professional coffee grinder, Rancilio, Lavazza beans, special blend for gourmet restaurants, but not as good as you get at the "autogrill" on the autostrada ?