Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

[misterdoggy]

It seems you have real difficulty with your English indeed.

Let me ask again. Hopefully using simpler words this time. Why does it brother you so much when some people said you don't need to spend so much money in some hifi toys to enjoy your music?

I'm sorry but your English is difficult to understand. I think I get the idea though.

".......Why does it bother me, that people say, you don't need, to spend a lot, to enjoy music ?".......

I can enjoy music with an ipod. I never said I couldn't enjoy music for less ??

The discussion was never whether or not one needs to spend a fortune to enjoy music.

The point was whether Amplifiers sound different.

Then it went in to whether the more $$ invested the greater the return in sound.

Everyone can enjoy music anywhere, anyway, with anyone on anything. :T

[dyazdani]

After the 406th post, this thread is going nowhere and the increasing frequency of personal attacks, whether towards others' beliefs or proposed "facts" is growing very tiresome.

Regardless of your level of knowledge or what you think you know, you must respect other people's opinions / comments and communicate in a decent manner.

If the thread can't turn itself around, it stands the chance of being locked.

Thanks for everyone's cooperation.

[ThomasW]

Years ago when I built the clone of the Legacy Whispers, JonMarsh was in town to assist with the final crossover configuration.

I got a call from Charles Hansen (yes Mr Ayre). He had the prototype for the V5 power amp and was interested in whether we wanted to 'hear' it.

The Whispers were running tri-amped with a sub. All the amps powering the system were Aragon 8008BB's. I couldn't imagine that the V5 was going to make any audible difference in this system, but it was always fun to spent time talking with Charlie, so I said "come on down"...

We picked a 1 min section off a CD and played it a couple of times. This gave us a point of reference. Then I removed the 8008 powering the MTM section and put in the V5 prototype. The output levels were matched and we replayed that now too familar section of music.

Well slap me silly but with the V5 in the chain there were details being reproduced that weren't audible with the 8008. Had I not heard this with my own ears I would not have believed it.

So yes I still have my 8008's, but the MTM section of the current speakers and the midrange section (B&G RD-75's) of my large planar arrays are both driven by Ayre V5-xe's. This is due to the fact that there most certainly is an audible difference in power amps, even high-end solid state ones supposedly built with no compromise designs.....

[Victor]

Audio is not a mystery that many have been led to believe. Audio is a direct application of Electrical Engineering to the treatment of low frequency signals. There is a reason why there has not been anything substantially new in this field for many years. And this reason is simple; - we know pretty much all there is to know when it comes to Linear Amplifier design with commonly availably transistors or op-amps. Even if we discover tomorrow a better way to process audio signals, still the fundamentals of linear system design as postulated by Fourier back 200 years ago will still apply.

This is not about the circuit implementation as it does change with different design approaches, and there are many ways to make a perfectly good power amp. This is about an understanding that any power amp is called upon to process a signal and NOT to change it in any way. The design goal is not to create a sound, - the design goal is to have no perceptible sound of any kind coming out of the power amp when no signal present at its input. The meaning of the term distortion is all about an unwanted sound, i.e. it is a bad thing.

Many if not most audiophiles have been seduced by the Hi-Fi industry into thinking that there is magic associated with power amplifiers. It is clear to me that this is complete nonsense. The industry wants the audiophiles to believe that because this is the way to do good business. I am all in favor of good business practices and if a manufacturer manages to convince anyone that their amp is better on whatever grounds then great, - buy it and be happy. Just do not attempt to rationalize your purchase based on technical merits when none can be found by any rational means.

I always accept the statement that a particular power amp sounds better then another based on subjective grounds. I said it as much in my discussion with misterdoggy, when I intimated that his Levinson 33 is a great amp. Indeed it is a great amp. If its sounds better to misterdoggy, then I am happy for him. Just understand that your perception cannot be argued on technical merits for the most part with some notable exceptions.

Here is one. ThomasW, whose opinion I hold in great respect, writes about his experience with Arye V5 amp. He really likes it. V5 has received great reviews and it was said that its sound is something to behold. ThomasW noticed that too.

A look on Arye website reveals that no THD spec are published for this amp and no noise specs are published either. It also says that the V5 is a zero-feedback design. Perhaps here is the reason as to why it sounds so good.

I do not want to go into a long winded expose into the design aspects of zero-feedback approach; however it would suffice to say that the distortion of this amp is high comparing to other solid state amps. Many audiophiles do not find this objectionable and for a good reason, however, zero feedback approach departs from the tenets of linear system and it will have a perceptible sound.

This sound can be extremely pleasing and ThomasW says that he likes it. Well, he is not alone, many other do too. This is a personal taste and I will never argue with it. However, the zero feedback design approach will not be my design choice because it will prevent me from achieving the distortion low enough to render the amp transparent, as the amp must be by definition.

Today I got my hands on Behringer A500 power amplifier. It can be had for $200 Can. And it will give you an honest 200 watts into 4 Ohm load with less then 0.02% distortion of mostly benign 2nd order and noise below 70 dB. I also have on hands Bryston 7B SST that cost about 25 times more. It is a much better amp by any stretch of imagination and it beats the A500 in every respect. The 7B features 0.005% THD and -115 dB of noise levels. Let along it can deliver more then 500 Watts into 4 Ohm load.

Bryston is a perfect example of a truly transparent power amp as its electrical characteristics exemplify what the linear time-invariant system must be.

Anyway, I plugged both of these amps into RD-75 section of my 3-way dipole speaker system. I equalized the levels with my Behringer mike. The A500 has level controls as any good professional amp should have. I then listen to my favorite Pink Floyd selection, - the ‘Hey You’ from the Wall.

I could not tell them apart. In a few days I will have a party and I shall ask a dozen more people to participate in this insanity. I shall post the results if anybody wants to see them, although I know how they will turn out, as I have been there before a few times.

[David Meek]

I've never locked a thread out of ennui, but after plumbing the depths of this subject again, it's time to move on to fresh topics.

Thanks to (most) all of you for your participation.