Originally posted by The13thGryphon
Okay, gotta jump in here and make a few of my own points. (Sorry in advance for the length of the post)
1) Several people have stated something along the lines of "when modern solid state amps play at the same level, and within their clipping limits, all will sound the same." I'd just like to state that in my experience this is silly.
Let's examine the matter. No two amps are laid out, wired, or constructed exactly alike. Amps have differing input impedances, differing output impedances, varying degrees of deviation in the audible frequency range, different levels of Total Harmonic Distortion and Intermodulation Distortion, and differing harmonic distortion components (1st order, 2nd order, 3rd order, etc.), different signal to noise ratios, differing degrees of adherence to a linear phase response (or lack thereof), and different levels of mechanical noise.
The circuit topology of amplifiers differ from one another. Some amps use a Class A design, some are Class A\B, some are Class H, some are Class D, some are Class T, etc., etc.
Designers make different trade-offs based upon what they believe to be important, or upon what they think is allowable within the price point they are shooting for. Component parts selected for use in circuits for a particular amp are different from others used in another similar circuit in a different brand. While one designer will use a particular circuit, or even a particular type and brand of diode, or resister, or capacitor, or transformer, another designer will use a difference circuit and different components.
Yet there are folks out there that are trying to tell me that all of these differences will add up to no difference in the sound that comes out of this complex circuit? Are they crazy??? :E
I tell someone that I listened to a Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, and compared it to a Linn Ikemi CD player, and that I heard distinct differences, and that I liked the Ikemi significantly better than the Rotel; and no one tends to argue or disagree. Yet both players spin the same little silver disks, both were designed to provide musical enjoyment, and both were attempts by a designer to provide as truthful and realistic a representation of the original recording as they could. Yet they sound different... and people tend to accept that this is the case. But let the two devices in question be amps, and suddenly someone is telling me I couldn't have heard any difference, and such differences cannot possibly exist. Sheesh!
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2) bigburner hit the nail on the head when he spoke of "voicing" an amp. No all designers even attempt to create a "straight wire with gain". Many design their amps to provide a specific and particular sound that they find pleasing, or that they believe will allow their unit to overcome some small discrepancy or defect, or simply to differentiate their amp from everyone elses. Yet even when so many designers deviate from a "straight wire with gain" and voice their products, we're told that there cannot be any difference in the sound from one amp to another. Please.
3) I know someone will poopoo this due to it not following strictly controlled scientific methodology... but read it and judge for yourself. I don't know how a test could be more "double blind".
I visited a Magnolia Hi-Fi and was primarily looking for a set of speakers. I listened to several models in the store and was drawn to a pair of Vienna Acoustics Beethoven’s. The system connected to the Beethoven’s consisted of a Krell KPS CD player, a Krell Home Theater Standard pre-pro, and a Krell FPB 200 amp, all connected up with Audioquest IC’s and speaker cables. Sitting on the other side of the low equipment rack was a B&K amp and preamp, with a Toshiba CD player for a source. These components were connected to a second pair of speakers, the Vienna Acoustics Mozart’s.
As the salesman knew me from previous visits he closed the doors to the listening room and carefully verified the setup: exact location of speakers and proper toe-in (matching the markings on the floor), no surround modes or EQ enabled on the pre-pro, set to simple stereo and “pure-direct” mode, and no crossover or sub used.
After listening to several cuts off of the CD’s I happened to have with me that day, I was very impressed with the combination. Tight, extended, tuneful bass, clear and musical mids, and detailed highs without going overboard into sizzle that will cause listener fatigue. I remember listening to cuts from the Holly Cole Trio album “Blame it on my Youth”, and several songs from Eric Clapton’s Unplugged album, and a couple of cuts off of Robert Cray’s “I was Warned” album. I was really pleased with the sound and thinking that maybe I’d found a pair of speakers that I could live with. I went home to get some additional CD’s and headed back to listen further.
When I got back less than two hours later my usual sales consultant was gone for lunch, and another sales person took me back into the listening room. Everything appeared to be exactly as I had seen it earlier in the day. He cued up my first CD – “Steady On” by Shawn Colvin – and I sat back to listen. After a minute or two I asked to have him play a different cut. Although the sales person had been smiling and tapping his foot, something just didn’t seem right to me. The second cut was also disappointing. As I was listening to a different CD than I had earlier, I figured maybe the mix was a little muddied and I’d just never really noticed before... although up until then I’d loved this album and thought the production was top notch. We put on a different CD – “Be Yourself Tonight” by the Eurythmics. Again, after several minutes I just wasn’t feeling it like I had earlier.
At that point I asked him to throw on Eric Clapton’s Unplugged, which I had listened to earlier and loved. That too proved ultimately to be a letdown. The bass was not as extended, and what was there was bloated and slow… not the tight, tuneful, sound I recalled. In addition, the upper mids and highs seemed to have lost a bit of detail and glow. I asked the salesperson to check to see if a surround mode had been turned on, or if any EQ settings had been added or adjusted. After a quick check all was as it should have been, and was earlier. I even walked over to the Beethoven speakers to ensure they were on and playing, and that someone hadn’t switched the speaker leads over to the smaller Mozart’s.
At that point I was at a total loss. I had walked in expecting to be further dazzled by the system that had thrilled me just two hours previous. I was looking at the same big ‘bad boy’ Krell amp, and the same Home Theater Standard pre-pro, and the same Krell KPS CD player, and the same Vienna Acoustics Beethoven speakers… all of which I was admittedly taken with. What was wrong? Suddenly the system I'd been very impressed with earlier in the day just wasn't doing it for me! I'm not saying that it was terrible. It wasn't. It was okay... just not the same caliber I recalled from earlier in the day.
The room was the same, the speakers were the same and in the same place, the source and preamp were the same, the IC's and cables were the same... and I thought that the amp was the same. I had no doubt in my mind that I was listening to the same equipment, but something was indeed wrong with how it sounded. Not terribly wrong as in “yuck”! Just a little bit different. A little less musical; a little “fatter” and slower. A little less transparent. Not tons… but enough to notice.
As I was sitting there trying to understand what was happening, and why I was having such a different reaction to what I believed to be the exact same system, the sales person was checking the connections to all of the equipment. Suddenly he said “Hmmm, that’s strange.” When I asked what he meant he indicated that someone had run the output of the Krell HTS pre-pro into the B&K amp, and connected the Beethoven speakers to the B&K as well. Everything in the system was the same as before… except the amp!
Now why did I hear a difference? I came back expecting to hear the exact same thing I'd heard previously. It wasn't a preconceived belief, as I was unaware that anything had been changed, and I came in expecting to be enthralled again. And you can’t say I was swayed by the look or sex appeal or name of one amp or the other; ‘cause it was the same two amps sitting there on the rack in front of me and I believed I was again listening to that cool, sexy Krell. You can’t say I that my emotions were the cause of hearing something different, ‘cause, again, I believed that I was listening to the same unit. And you can’t say that the sales person somehow consciously or sub-consciously influenced me, ‘cause he didn’t know there had been a change either.
So how do I explain this other than to believe that I could/can indeed discern an audible difference? Form your own conclusion... I know I've formed mine.
1) Several people have stated something along the lines of "when modern solid state amps play at the same level, and within their clipping limits, all will sound the same." I'd just like to state that in my experience this is silly.
Let's examine the matter. No two amps are laid out, wired, or constructed exactly alike. Amps have differing input impedances, differing output impedances, varying degrees of deviation in the audible frequency range, different levels of Total Harmonic Distortion and Intermodulation Distortion, and differing harmonic distortion components (1st order, 2nd order, 3rd order, etc.), different signal to noise ratios, differing degrees of adherence to a linear phase response (or lack thereof), and different levels of mechanical noise.
The circuit topology of amplifiers differ from one another. Some amps use a Class A design, some are Class A\B, some are Class H, some are Class D, some are Class T, etc., etc.
Designers make different trade-offs based upon what they believe to be important, or upon what they think is allowable within the price point they are shooting for. Component parts selected for use in circuits for a particular amp are different from others used in another similar circuit in a different brand. While one designer will use a particular circuit, or even a particular type and brand of diode, or resister, or capacitor, or transformer, another designer will use a difference circuit and different components.
Yet there are folks out there that are trying to tell me that all of these differences will add up to no difference in the sound that comes out of this complex circuit? Are they crazy??? :E
I tell someone that I listened to a Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, and compared it to a Linn Ikemi CD player, and that I heard distinct differences, and that I liked the Ikemi significantly better than the Rotel; and no one tends to argue or disagree. Yet both players spin the same little silver disks, both were designed to provide musical enjoyment, and both were attempts by a designer to provide as truthful and realistic a representation of the original recording as they could. Yet they sound different... and people tend to accept that this is the case. But let the two devices in question be amps, and suddenly someone is telling me I couldn't have heard any difference, and such differences cannot possibly exist. Sheesh!
: 2) bigburner hit the nail on the head when he spoke of "voicing" an amp. No all designers even attempt to create a "straight wire with gain". Many design their amps to provide a specific and particular sound that they find pleasing, or that they believe will allow their unit to overcome some small discrepancy or defect, or simply to differentiate their amp from everyone elses. Yet even when so many designers deviate from a "straight wire with gain" and voice their products, we're told that there cannot be any difference in the sound from one amp to another. Please.
3) I know someone will poopoo this due to it not following strictly controlled scientific methodology... but read it and judge for yourself. I don't know how a test could be more "double blind".
I visited a Magnolia Hi-Fi and was primarily looking for a set of speakers. I listened to several models in the store and was drawn to a pair of Vienna Acoustics Beethoven’s. The system connected to the Beethoven’s consisted of a Krell KPS CD player, a Krell Home Theater Standard pre-pro, and a Krell FPB 200 amp, all connected up with Audioquest IC’s and speaker cables. Sitting on the other side of the low equipment rack was a B&K amp and preamp, with a Toshiba CD player for a source. These components were connected to a second pair of speakers, the Vienna Acoustics Mozart’s.
As the salesman knew me from previous visits he closed the doors to the listening room and carefully verified the setup: exact location of speakers and proper toe-in (matching the markings on the floor), no surround modes or EQ enabled on the pre-pro, set to simple stereo and “pure-direct” mode, and no crossover or sub used.
After listening to several cuts off of the CD’s I happened to have with me that day, I was very impressed with the combination. Tight, extended, tuneful bass, clear and musical mids, and detailed highs without going overboard into sizzle that will cause listener fatigue. I remember listening to cuts from the Holly Cole Trio album “Blame it on my Youth”, and several songs from Eric Clapton’s Unplugged album, and a couple of cuts off of Robert Cray’s “I was Warned” album. I was really pleased with the sound and thinking that maybe I’d found a pair of speakers that I could live with. I went home to get some additional CD’s and headed back to listen further.
When I got back less than two hours later my usual sales consultant was gone for lunch, and another sales person took me back into the listening room. Everything appeared to be exactly as I had seen it earlier in the day. He cued up my first CD – “Steady On” by Shawn Colvin – and I sat back to listen. After a minute or two I asked to have him play a different cut. Although the sales person had been smiling and tapping his foot, something just didn’t seem right to me. The second cut was also disappointing. As I was listening to a different CD than I had earlier, I figured maybe the mix was a little muddied and I’d just never really noticed before... although up until then I’d loved this album and thought the production was top notch. We put on a different CD – “Be Yourself Tonight” by the Eurythmics. Again, after several minutes I just wasn’t feeling it like I had earlier.
At that point I asked him to throw on Eric Clapton’s Unplugged, which I had listened to earlier and loved. That too proved ultimately to be a letdown. The bass was not as extended, and what was there was bloated and slow… not the tight, tuneful, sound I recalled. In addition, the upper mids and highs seemed to have lost a bit of detail and glow. I asked the salesperson to check to see if a surround mode had been turned on, or if any EQ settings had been added or adjusted. After a quick check all was as it should have been, and was earlier. I even walked over to the Beethoven speakers to ensure they were on and playing, and that someone hadn’t switched the speaker leads over to the smaller Mozart’s.
At that point I was at a total loss. I had walked in expecting to be further dazzled by the system that had thrilled me just two hours previous. I was looking at the same big ‘bad boy’ Krell amp, and the same Home Theater Standard pre-pro, and the same Krell KPS CD player, and the same Vienna Acoustics Beethoven speakers… all of which I was admittedly taken with. What was wrong? Suddenly the system I'd been very impressed with earlier in the day just wasn't doing it for me! I'm not saying that it was terrible. It wasn't. It was okay... just not the same caliber I recalled from earlier in the day.
The room was the same, the speakers were the same and in the same place, the source and preamp were the same, the IC's and cables were the same... and I thought that the amp was the same. I had no doubt in my mind that I was listening to the same equipment, but something was indeed wrong with how it sounded. Not terribly wrong as in “yuck”! Just a little bit different. A little less musical; a little “fatter” and slower. A little less transparent. Not tons… but enough to notice.
As I was sitting there trying to understand what was happening, and why I was having such a different reaction to what I believed to be the exact same system, the sales person was checking the connections to all of the equipment. Suddenly he said “Hmmm, that’s strange.” When I asked what he meant he indicated that someone had run the output of the Krell HTS pre-pro into the B&K amp, and connected the Beethoven speakers to the B&K as well. Everything in the system was the same as before… except the amp!
Now why did I hear a difference? I came back expecting to hear the exact same thing I'd heard previously. It wasn't a preconceived belief, as I was unaware that anything had been changed, and I came in expecting to be enthralled again. And you can’t say I was swayed by the look or sex appeal or name of one amp or the other; ‘cause it was the same two amps sitting there on the rack in front of me and I believed I was again listening to that cool, sexy Krell. You can’t say I that my emotions were the cause of hearing something different, ‘cause, again, I believed that I was listening to the same unit. And you can’t say that the sales person somehow consciously or sub-consciously influenced me, ‘cause he didn’t know there had been a change either.
So how do I explain this other than to believe that I could/can indeed discern an audible difference? Form your own conclusion... I know I've formed mine.
the theory is : if you experienced an audible difference that there would be measurable differences
hence reviews based on specs (as apposed to opinion) are more valuable
But it is hosted elsewhere as I found out later on.
For whatever reason:huh: Be a wary consumer! 
ops: 
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