help picking an SACD player

[kurtholz]

Hey all

I am in a quandry, i use an arcam dv29 for dvd/cd,and most importantly dvd-a, it is fine, however ,as usual, ( i bought BETA) i chose the format with the least choices

so i am trying to narrow down the choices on an SACD player,

Krell SACD standard
Sony 9000es
Marantz9600

or ?

as i am happy with my DVD playback, and i am using the analog 5.1 already for that, i will be using the balanced or digital coax for SACD, so most if not all playback will be 2 channel,

though my coax compares very well on the Arcam to the analog, i can't see doing it different, but could

any help mucho appreciated

thanks

Kurt

[Evil Twin]

I'd give some consideration or audition one of these....

Very nice SACD playback, excellent build quality, very good redbook, too, and programmable audio filter settings (one prefers to be in control in these things).

Most satisfactory, in my recent experience.

[aud19]

i will be using the balanced or digital coax for SACD, so most if not all playback will be 2 channel,

SACD does not transmit the high-res audio signal over coax, it only transmits the lower resolutions CD layer. You'll need to use analog cables or if you have the appropriate HDMI or Firewire equipped AND compatible equipment.

[aud19]

I personally wish I could find a good quality music playback device that does CD/DVD-A/SACD all very well and then use a seperate player for DVD-V (and down the line HD/BD)

[jim777]

If you are looking for 2ch only SACD (and CD), don't forget to also look at the McIntosh MCD201. I'm very happy with mine

[Blindamood]

Another nice looking 2-channel player is the brand new Marantz SA8001.

[JKalman]

If you are looking for only 2 channel playback I would audition the Ayre C-5xe (DVD-A, DVD-V sound, SACD, Redbook CD, MP3). It doesn't get much better than the Ayre unit for all format playback IMO. I did a lot of auditioning both outside and inside my house, with my system and dealers' systems before I settled on the Ayre C-5xe. I'm completely satisfied, the only thing I've heard that made me jealous was the dCS stack, but that was well over $30k.

Ayre C-5xe Specifications

Ayre C-5xe Reviews

[JKalman]

BTW, the C-5xe also plays surround sound tracks by mixing the tracks down to two channels.

[JKalman]

Some more reviews: Soundstage Review - C-5xe

V -1xe and K-1xe review (the components used in the above review system)

[aud19]

Sadly that's way beyond my budget :cry: I'd need a sub $2k audio unit and ~$500 DVD-V unit to make me happy.... At that price I'd rather spend $1k on a DAC1 for my CD's and be done with it :lol:

[JKalman]

Ack, had to post again... My number of posts was at 666! ;x( :twisted:

[Kal Rubinson]

Ack, had to post again... My number of posts was at 666! ;x( :twisted:

But a day late!

Kal

[kurtholz]

the ayre looks good, but since i am happy enough with my dvd player, i really just want to stick as close to a dedicated sacd player as i can,i think i have narrowed it down to the Krell or one of the Sony units, the Krell will probably end up being it since i am using several of there components already

what do you do when you finally cure upgradeitis? is there another hobby that we all take in, what will i do, nothing left to buy, life will be so empty, no more sleepness nights worrying about what choice to make next and how to squeeze a few bucks out for something new

SED, that's right, they come out in a few months, ahhhhhhh, i have something else to buy

:-)

thanks for all the help,

Kurt

[JKalman]

Ack, had to post again... My number of posts was at 666! ;x( :twisted:

But a day late!

Kal

Always a bridesmaid, never a bride... :lol:

the ayre looks good, but since i am happy enough with my dvd player, i really just want to stick as close to a dedicated sacd player as i can,i think i have narrowed it down to the Krell or one of the Sony units, the Krell will probably end up being it since i am using several of there components already

what do you do when you finally cure upgradeitis? is there another hobby that we all take in, what will i do, nothing left to buy, life will be so empty, no more sleepness nights worrying about what choice to make next and how to squeeze a few bucks out for something new

SED, that's right, they come out in a few months, ahhhhhhh, i have something else to buy

:-)

thanks for all the help,

Kurt

I recommend customizable sports/race cars for your next hobby. I'm contemplating adding a Turbo to my Elise once my warranty is up or a Kleeman supercharger to my E55 next year. If you want a cheaper hobby, start building your own computers. You can build yourself a nice quad card SLI system, or wait a few months and build one of those new 3 card CrossFire systems. Both setups will look great on a 30" screen. I would wait to see how the new Intel chips perform, I keep hearing they are great and from what I read about the architectural changes, they should be worth the wait.

Screw SED, get a Front Projector! 8)

[kurtholz]

I recommend customizable sports/race cars for your next hobby. I'm contemplating adding a Turbo to my Elise once my warranty is up or a Kleeman supercharger to my E55 next year.

Dear Jeff

No one can confuse a Lotus as being a real car, it's a small toy made for spoiled rich kid's, way to small for any real man

hahahhaha

Car's are a cheap hobby actually, get into Japanese swords or tea ceremony accutrements, nothing like holding a piece of steel that costs more than one of those tiny Lotus things

i just aquired a rather special one that might fit in the trunk of your Lotus, it's about 800 years old, a nice little dagger in perfect condition,( actually called a Tanto) but thought i would spare you the language details, have a few nice 1000 year old tea bowls that are fun to sip tea out of, but have to admit not as much fun as swinging an old sword around,


front projector over SED, cmon, that hurts, i won't even debate that one

that debate is worse than the thought of trying to get my fat 250lb, 6'3" frame into a Lotus

actually , i have been a closet Lotus admirer for years, best i could talk my other half into was an XK8, it's fun enough, and out of warranty, hmmmm, so where do you get those turbocharger's

:-)


so how do you like that toy of yours, has it been pretty easy to maintain?

see, you planted the seed, it's growing, all i wanted out of this thread was which SACD player to get, now you got me thinking new toy

thanks, thanks a lot, you evil man

hahahaha

regards

Kurt

[alebonau]

But a day late!

Kal

never too late Kal !

just a question, what are yoru thoughts on the marantz sa-11 sacd player kal for cD and sacd replay.

[JKalman]

I recommend customizable sports/race cars for your next hobby. I'm contemplating adding a Turbo to my Elise once my warranty is up or a Kleeman supercharger to my E55 next year.

Dear Jeff

No one can confuse a Lotus as being a real car, it's a small toy made for spoiled rich kid's, way to small for any real man

hahahhaha

Car's are a cheap hobby actually, get into Japanese swords or tea ceremony accutrements, nothing like holding a piece of steel that costs more than one of those tiny Lotus things

i just aquired a rather special one that might fit in the trunk of your Lotus, it's about 800 years old, a nice little dagger in perfect condition,( actually called a Tanto) but thought i would spare you the language details, have a few nice 1000 year old tea bowls that are fun to sip tea out of, but have to admit not as much fun as swinging an old sword around,


front projector over SED, cmon, that hurts, i won't even debate that one

that debate is worse than the thought of trying to get my fat 250lb, 6'3" frame into a Lotus

actually , i have been a closet Lotus admirer for years, best i could talk my other half into was an XK8, it's fun enough, and out of warranty, hmmmm, so where do you get those turbocharger's

:-)


so how do you like that toy of yours, has it been pretty easy to maintain?

see, you planted the seed, it's growing, all i wanted out of this thread was which SACD player to get, now you got me thinking new toy

thanks, thanks a lot, you evil man

hahahaha

regards

Kurt

LOL... Easy to maintain yes, but there are always plenty of electrical problems. Thank God they have those Toyota motors (2zz) now or i would probably be in trouble.

I would collect Japanese swords but I know I would end up cutting my own head off or something. That or I would end up chopping a speaker in half one night in a blind fit of rage. If you thought Jack Nicholson was bad on the highways with a golf club, you have yet to see me on the highways with a Japanese sword... Can you say "Highlander"!

Yeah, I fell in love with the whole Lotus/Colin Chapman ideology of minimalism, their Elise is fairly zen. It seems like the kind of car you would appreciate considering your love of oriental tools. Small engines in small frames, as compared to the traditional occidental philosophy of waste and indulgence most exemplified by such things as the American Muscle car. : Though I'm not one who should point a finger, my other sports car is a Mercedes E55 Sedan. Talk about a car that consumes gas at ridiculous rates! ops: I just love taking corners really fast in that Elise, nothing else I've driven except open-wheel formula cars corners like that thing.

There are a few turbo kits and a supercharger kit also. Forcedfed has had a turbo kit out since last year, and just added another even stronger one. Hass has a turbo for the Elise. Supposedly, Lotus is working on a supercharger aftermarket part and there is another supercharger out there I heard about, but I can't recall the manufacturer's name.

[Kal Rubinson]

never too late Kal !

just a question, what are yoru thoughts on the marantz sa-11 sacd player kal for cD and sacd replay.

I have none as I've never used the unit. Besides, ain't it a 2channel player? I'd never bother with one of those!

Kal

[Alaric]

Kal , if you want multi-channel SACD the Marantz SA8260 is a very good unit.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal , if you want multi-channel SACD the Marantz SA8260 is a very good unit.

So I've heard but I already have 5 MCH SACD players.

Kal

[kurtholz]

Kal

you have FIVE of them?

one for each day of the week, with weekends off?

i thought i had upgraditis bad, man, you are sick,

better get a Lotus, it will bring you back down to earth

hahaha

Kurt

[alebonau]

Kal

you have FIVE of them?

one for each day of the week, with weekends off?

i thought i had upgraditis bad, man, you are sick,

better get a Lotus, it will bring you back down to earth

hahaha

Kurt

you see kurt kal had a rea lproblem choosing between all these great players jsut like yourself here so he jsut got the lot. Man I wish I could too. Kal you got any you want to give away or getting a bit tired off ? :W

[dbphd]

I had a '64 Elan from the mid 60s to early 70s. It definitely needed GPS and cell phone technology, becuase it stranded me so often in the hills behind Stanford. A really good way to spend money is to succumb to the red mist. Ferraris are not only expensive to collect, they are expensive to maintain -- the best of both worlds. Now a Boxster S and MB wagon furnishes our garage, and I consider it well furnished.

db

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal
you have FIVE of them?
one for each day of the week, with weekends off?

Actually, two for the city/weekday system and three for the country/weekend system.

i thought i had upgraditis bad, man, you are sick,

It's a side-effect of being a reviewer. I accumulate other peoples components.

better get a Lotus, it will bring you back down to earth

Nah. The commute's more comfortable in the Mercedes. Besides, how would I schlepp all the components and speakers? :B

Kal

[JKalman]

I had a '64 Elan from the mid 60s to early 70s. It definitely needed GPS and cell phone technology, becuase it stranded me so often in the hills behind Stanford. A really good way to spend money is to succumb to the red mist. Ferraris are not only expensive to collect, they are expensive to maintain -- the best of both worlds. Now a Boxster S and MB wagon furnishes our garage, and I consider it well furnished.

db

Yeah, I had considered the Boxster instead of the Elise. Another enjoyable sports car.

Nah. The commute's more comfortable in the Mercedes. Besides, how would I schlepp all the components and speakers? :B

Kal

What, they are too heavy to stack in your lap? :P

[Kal Rubinson]

What, they are too heavy to stack in your lap? :P

First, the disc players might be OK but some of the power amps and speakers would make me uncomfortable.
Second, would the seat belt go over or under the player?

Kal

[Chris D]

Over, man, over. Gotta protect the goods!

[JKalman]

Over, man, over. Gotta protect the goods!

Yep! Yep! :T

[jim777]

Well at least I'm happy to see that SACD is not dying. I just got my MCD201 a few months ago

"Strong Super Audio CD support from Sony"

http://www.sa-cd.net/shownews/41

[Chris D]

Whoa, now that IS interesting. First, I was getting the impression that DVD-A and SACD were on the decline. Second, this is the first I've heard that the PS3 will have SACD capability. Very interesting--are we sure that's accurate?

With the new generation of audio and video formats, wouldn't new high-res releases come out in the new audio formats on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD? Don't DTS-HD, DD+, Dolby True HD, etc, provide an ever higher-resolution capability than SACD or DVD-A?

[dvda-sacd]

Don't DTS-HD, DD+, Dolby True HD, etc, provide an ever higher-resolution capability than SACD or DVD-A?

I think there is no higher resolution than the 1-bit pulse train which DSD captures directly from the delta-sigma analog-to-digital converter. :roll:

[dvda-sacd]

Ps3

this is the first I've heard that the PS3 will have SACD capability.

http://eu.playstation.com/ps3/

Cheers! 8)

[Kal Rubinson]

Over, man, over. Gotta protect the goods!

The real goods are under the carton. :B

Kal

[JKalman]

I think there is no higher resolution than the 1-bit pulse train which DSD captures directly from the delta-sigma analog-to-digital converter. :roll:

Why 1-Bit Sigma-Delta Conversion is Unsuitable for High-Quality Applications

[dvda-sacd]

According to Sony/Philips, multi-bit systems decimate (downsample) the 1-bit digital audio signal which results from the 64x oversampling delta-sigma modulation.

Direct Stream Digital™ (DSD™) Encoding.

Sony and Philips both have a well-known history of
accomplishment in Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) digital
audio. Starting in the late 1970’s with commercial 14-bit
systems, and moving up to 16-, 18-, 20- and 24-bit systems,
these two companies have made an unmatched investment
in PCM technology, generating an unequaled string of PCM
products. So it’s not casually that these two companies now
propose a fundamental move away from PCM.

Successively higher bit rates and higher sampling rates for
PCM systems have, in fact, improved sound quality. But the
improvements are getting smaller and smaller. And the
reason for these diminishing returns is becoming clear:
filtering. Every PCM system requires steep filters at the input
to absolutely block any signal at or above half the sampling
frequency. (In conventional 44.1 kHz sampling, “brick wall”
filters must pass 20 kHz audio, yet reject 22.05 kHz — a
difficult task.) In addition, re-quantization noise is added by
the multi-stage or “cascaded” decimation (downsampling)
digital filters used in recording and the multi-stage
interpolation (oversampling) digital filters used in playback.

This problem was the inspiration for Direct Stream Digital.
By simply eliminating decimation and interpolation in existing
processes — we developed a whole new way of capturing
audio signal digitally. As in conventional PCM systems, the
analog signal is first
converted to digital by
64x oversampling
delta-sigma modulation.
The result is a 1-bit
digital audio signal.
Where conventional
systems immediately
decimate the 1-bit
signal into a PCM code,
Direct Stream Digital
records the 1-bit
pulses directly.

http://www.superaudio-cd.com/technol...whitepaper.pdf

A picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.merging.com/2002/images/dsdresponseneon.gif

[jim777]

Why 1-Bit Sigma-Delta Conversion is Unsuitable for High-Quality Applications

BTW, publications to the AES are accepted with an abstract and a precis only. A quick view of the paper seems to show many errors or at least strong bias.

And yes, a 1-bit sigma-delta is not the best way to implement the D/A converter, but it doesn't mean that the format is wrong. In fact the same can be said for PCM. In both cases, oversampled multi-bit dacs sound the best (and that would be half way between PCM and DSD).

The dithering comments are just stupid. DSD is 100% dithering of an audio signal by definition. The comments about signal modification are also dumb, I have read a paper that shows how to add and multiply is the DSD domain without any information loss. Then, stating that signal-dependent distorsion is bad just isn't based on any hard facts. To say the contrary, I would bring up the fact that time and frequency masking should make signal-dependent distorsion a better choice psychoacoustically.

The bottom line, read the many recent AES papers (119 and 120th conference) on the subject and not the one and only silly paper that came out five years ago.

P.S. I'm not saying that DSD is better than PCM. The two have different characteristics so both have strong and week points. However, both are "overkill" enough in the DVD-A and SACD standards so that we can assume that the disc recording/mastering is the limiting factor and not the medium.


But lets not start another SACD vs DVDA war...

[dvda-sacd]

10 kHz square wave

If you look at these pictures, you can notice 192 kHz PCM does not approach the analog signal but the 1-bit pulse train of DSD.

[JKalman]

According to Sony/Philips, multi-bit systems decimate (downsample) the 1-bit digital audio signal which results from the 64x oversampling delta-sigma modulation.



A picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.merging.com/2002/images/dsdresponseneon.gif

If you can prove that DSD is better, then I suggest you write in to Wikipedia with the proof and have them add it to their Direct Stream Digital webpage stub. I don't see anything in your post that disproves the AES paper, or that proves DSD is better than 24-bit 192 KHz and 24-bit 96 KHz PCM.

I would be very interested in any proof you find because I have a large collection of SACDs and was bummed after reading the paper and the Wikipedia stub... Wikipedia Stub

[JKalman]

But lets not start another SACD vs DVDA war...

All I did was post the link to a paper... I'm not even in this war. I do suggest that if you can prove anything, that you submit it to that Wikipedia stub, whose link I included in the previous post, so that it is correct.

[JKalman]

If you look at these pictures, you can notice 192 kHz PCM does not approach the analog signal but the 1-bit pulse train of DSD.

It looks like it approaches it by distorting the signal with noise though. Am I correct in that assumption based on the smudging?

[dvda-sacd]

I don't see anything in your post that disproves the AES paper, or that proves DSD is better than 24-bit 192 KHz and 24-bit 96 KHz PCM.

Because I'm not saying DSD is better than PCM. What I said is that it seems to me PCM cannot reach higher resolution than DSD, while they both come from a 1 bit pulse train.

[jim777]

I have a large collection of SACDs and was bummed after reading the paper and the Wikipedia stub...

Well you shouldn't be, especially if they sound good to you - ain't that the point

BTW guys, those pictures don't say how the audio will sound..

I don't think that it is possible to proove a winner between DSD and PCM, they are different enough that one must suppose what is the most important between frequency response, time response, etc..

Bottom line, PCM is better than DSD for what??? I would love to know if one sounds better - even if titles are not often available in both formats.

[JKalman]

Because I'm not saying DSD is better than PCM. What I said is that it seems to me PCM cannot reach higher resolution than DSD.

The Wikipedia states: "Due to way 1-bit Sigma-Delta converters work, DSD encoded audio for lower tones has better resolution than standard CDs, while for higher tones the resolution, and therefore fidelity, drops down below that of standard CDs". If this is true, what does it matter how high the resolution is if the fidelity is lost on part of the audible signal, and the resolution is only applicable to lower frequencies?

I am more interested in the truth than any side in terms of SACD vs. 96 KHz 24-bit PCM. I don't know what the truth is unfortunately...

[JKalman]

Well you shouldn't be, especially if they sound good to you - ain't that the point

BTW guys, those pictures don't say how the audio will sound..

I don't think that it is possible to proove a winner between DSD and PCM, they are different enough that one must suppose what is the most important between frequency response, time response, etc..

Bottom line, PCM is better than DSD for what??? I would love to know if one sounds better - even if titles are not often available in both formats.

One thing that annoyed me, which I found out recently, is a lot of remastering to DSD was being done with changes to the sound so that it would be noticeably different. That bothers me. I noticed this myself recently when comparing songs from Steely Dan's Babylon Sisters SACD with those from its Greatest Hits CD. Babylon Sisters is slower on the SACD, and the main vocals are further recessed behind the music. I happened to have it on CD (their greatest hits album), and my friend and I noticed the difference immediately. We were very surprised, but then I remember reading about an engineer recently who admitted to changing things between CD and SACD recordings...

[Chris D]

Uh... not completely following where this is going. So are you guys trying to say that producing discs with new high-res audio formats of DTS-HD, DD+, etc, will NOT be any better than SACD or DVD-A?

On the subject, just came across another article today with some very interesting info from HE 2006 about Blu-Ray and SACD: http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=19009834