how important is the preamp

[tboooe]

I was just curious to know how important a preamp is to a high quality stereo only setup? Will getting an expenisve audiophile quality preamp make that much of a difference over a mid-fi preamp? I currently have a parasound p3 preamp and was considering either making a huge step up with either a tube or ss preamp.

[bigburner]

Good question Tommy. As the owner of a modest Rotel RC-1070 preamp I'd like to know too.

My opinion to-date has been that other factors are far more important than the preamp, eg source material, speakers, room acoustics etc, but I'd welcome a scientific reason why I need to rethink my opinion.

[PewterTA]

You should worry more about the Source, amp, speakers, etc...

If you think about it, the job of the preamp, is (if you use the DACs on from your source) to pass the signal unchanged out to the amp. Only thing it should do is amplify the signal to the correct sound level you have chosen. Other than that, there is no processing involved at all.

However, if you are dependent upon the DACs of the preamp to decode the digital signal from your source...then the pre-amp becomes very important.

[soundhound]

I think many would agree it all depends on the sound you are after. I own a Rotel RSP-1068, which does a great job for 2 channel, primarilly from a tubed cd player (it shines @ ht) its dead quiet, seems to be quite true to source. I use a Jolida Envoy tube pre for FM with a Halo T3 tuner as it softens it a bit more to my 2 channel liking. Any link(component) in the chain can affect the the sound, so it comes down to the sound you are after. tbooe, the p3 you currently use is supposed to be a dandy. bigburner, I ran a 1070 until I got my 1068 and know 1st hand it was a dandy. Its not allways the easiest thing to do in this hobby, but if we can stay focused on the sound we are after, we can save some pretty good $$$$ along the way by not trialing and erroring ourselves into the poorhouse. I could have 10's of thousands more wrapped up in stuff than what I have, but why??????? I Like what I hear, its my money, and it is just that simple.......Little wordy but, before the floodgates open I figured I would make a splash. Bob

[DifferentLee]

The preamp can be very important. Every step in the signal path is important and many preamps use too many circuits. Generally a purist approach is better and the quality of components also matter. Separates do a much better job generally that receivers and 2 channel dedicated preamps generally outperform multi-channel preamps but that is slowly changing.

I would say you want to look at each component in the playback chain for the highest quality sound.

[Rolyasm]

What about receivers and pre's from the same company where it looks like the only difference between the receiver and pre is that the receiver has say 120w/channel. Sherwood Newcastle has a R-965 receiver and a P-965 and the only difference I can see is the receiver has added channels of power. Would the guts of the thing be the same and perform just as well. I have had several people try to sell me Sherwood products and hear they do well. I may buy one soon and this has puzzled me. Thanks.
Roly

[aud19]

Roly, seperate pre/pro's and amps tend to perform better than receivers as they have their own indepent power supply's and it seperates the processing and amplification components in to two seperate units minimizing any interference to eachother

[Rolyasm]

Okay thanks. Lets say, just hypothetical, that I wanted to use a seperate amp for my fronts and center but didn't care much about huge amounts of power for my surrounds. So either I can find 7 channels of amp power, or use a three for 5 channel amp for the fronts, possibly biamp, or use 2 channels for 5.1 and the receiver for the rears. So I guess that is the question. Go 7 channels amp with pre, or use receiver for surrounds. Will that have the same effect?
Roly

[aud19]

If you're using a receiver you can just use it's channels or you can also add an amp (2, 3, 5 or 7 channel) in just about any variety of connections as you mentioned. However using a receiver as a pre/pro only should give you better results than just a receiver but a dedicated pre/pro will likely do an even better job still

[tboooe]

Thanks for the reply everyone. So if I was to get a really expensive and nice preamp like the levinson, cary, conrad johnson, etc, will I notice a big improvement over my modest Parasound p3? In other words, am I missing something with my p3? Right now, I am frustrated with the lack of soundstage depth and width of my current gear. Am I right to focus on the preamp or should I be looking at the cables or amp? I am pretty sure my source is good (Cary 303/300 cdp). My amp is a Parasound A21.

Thanks again for the help.

[NewBuyer]

tboooe, I know this suggestion is not "purist" but have you considered trying a signal processor like the BBE Sonic Maximizer? This is the single best sounding upgrade I ever tried - an amazing improvement in my system.

I found the preamp actually makes a really big difference, and this surprised me. The next item I will likely try is the new GCP-200 unit from PS Audio. No sonic issues from volume control at all, very intriguing...

[alebonau]

Thanks for the reply everyone. So if I was to get a really expensive and nice preamp like the levinson, cary, conrad johnson, etc, will I notice a big improvement over my modest Parasound p3? In other words, am I missing something with my p3? Right now, I am frustrated with the lack of soundstage depth and width of my current gear. Am I right to focus on the preamp or should I be looking at the cables or amp? I am pretty sure my source is good (Cary 303/300 cdp). My amp is a Parasound A21.

Thanks again for the help.

a friend of mine mentioned this thread, thought I'd respond as just upgraded my pre-pwr and have done a bit of demoing. Best thing you can do is try a few good 2ch pre's out in your system to guage the improvement for yourself.

When I transplanted a current gen pre into my old mf pre power system a couple of years ago, what I noticed was better soundstage & detail primarily. Additionally with the differnt 2ch pre's I tried (mf, primare, cyrus, arcam, EC etc) I also noticed a bit of their own charecter come in.

Whether a 2ch pre makes a differnce and provides you what your looking for also depends on the rest of your system.

Your source(CD player or transport and dac) needs to provide the information including detail, sound stage etc, a pre will either help recreate or destroy that, power amp needs to translate it to your speakers(drive them) and speakers need to be good enough to reproduce in the room. Room and speaker postiioning/setup can also detemine sounds stage. Ofcourse all components mentioned(including speaker positioning and room) also tend to contribute their own charecter/colouration to influence the overall sound.

Not sure if I've helped any but I'd strongly recommend trialling a few quality 2ch pre's in your system

[aud19]

Thanks for the reply everyone. So if I was to get a really expensive and nice preamp like the levinson, cary, conrad johnson, etc, will I notice a big improvement over my modest Parasound p3? In other words, am I missing something with my p3? Right now, I am frustrated with the lack of soundstage depth and width of my current gear. Am I right to focus on the preamp or should I be looking at the cables or amp? I am pretty sure my source is good (Cary 303/300 cdp). My amp is a Parasound A21.

Thanks again for the help.

Will it be night and day...? Likely, no. But you should notice an improvement in the things mentioned... Think of it this way, generally the better pre/pro you have the better of a job it will do passing ALL of the info along from the source without mucking it up. Of course like anything in electronics, the law of "diminishing returns" is cruelly at work here. You're current Parasound gear probably get's you something like 90% there. To get closer to say 95% with the gear you mentioned costs a fair bit of money! The closer you get to 100% the more the price rises exponentially :E Only you can decide if the $$ is worth the incremental improvements. Best way to figure that out is to demo gear :T

You didn't mention which speakers you were running...? Speakers are the most noticeable component you can change in your system, so they could be the problem Also alebonau made a good suggestion to fiddle around with your speakers placement and room interaction which can make a BIG difference as well.

[tboooe]

Thanks alebonau and aud19. I am using B&W 804S speakers. I dont think my room setup is ok. The speakers are 3ft from the back wall and about 7ft from any sidewall. The speakers are about 5ft apart and I sit 5ft away.

could it be that my cary 303/300 cdp is not providing the info? do the speaker cables have any affect?

newbuyer: i will look into your suggestions. intriguing indeed.

[aud19]

That sounds too close together for good soundtage width and depth to me Invite a buddy over and pay him with a few beers. Sit in the sweet spot and get him to move speakers apart, adjust toe in etc until they sound their best

[tboooe]

unfortunately, I cannot move them much further apart without intruding on furniture. Also my sitting position is limited. the interesting thing is that i used to have them 6ft apart but i had serious issues with my central image wandering all over the place. sometimes the music from the middle, other times to the left center. i found myself continually adjusting the balance. this weekend I moved the speakers closer together and now I get a consistent center sound stage. maybe there were some reflections involved and moving the speakers away from the coffee table and sofa helped...either way i cant move the speakes much further apart.

[aud19]

Well you can still experiment with front to back and toe in. Though I suspect where you had them before but more toed in would likely give you the best of both worlds

[alebonau]

Thanks alebonau and aud19. I am using B&W 804S speakers. I dont think my room setup is ok. The speakers are 3ft from the back wall and about 7ft from any sidewall. The speakers are about 5ft apart and I sit 5ft away.

could it be that my cary 303/300 cdp is not providing the info? do the speaker cables have any affect?

newbuyer: i will look into your suggestions. intriguing indeed.

tbooe I have actually heard the b&w 804s in an electrocompaniet amp and cd setup and could not fault soundstage. I pretty much remember listening to the speakers 2- 2.5m apart. 5ft or 1.5m sounds to me just wrong and way too close together for a speaker of this calibre.

I'd definetly be moving out wards theres definetely some room effects here I'd be chasing first before anything else. Worries me too what you said about central image moving around definetely something very wrong here.

Can you post some pics of your setup showing room and speaker positioning. people might be able to make some suggestions to improve the situation.

[audioqueso]

You can have a wide separation between the speakers and still get a good center imaging. My setup, as I've told you, is about 7-8 feet apart, but throughout the days of positioning I've had it as wide as 10 feet apart with good center imaging. I think how good the center imaging (as long as the separation is not TOO wide) is all due to the toe-in angle. With the proper toe-in, you can always create that center image.