External DACs (and room acoustics)

[mb225]

Does anyone have experience with external DACs? My current system is great but I still find it to be edgy or bright sometimes. I’ve been reading a lot of reviews on DACs lately and I was wondering if that should be my next upgrade? A lot of the reviews of DACs seem to address jitter and use phrases like "not edgy" or "not fatiguing".

My current setup is:
Mac Mini -> Optical Out -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Rotel RC-1550 preamp
Rotel RB-1582 amp
B&W 803s
Interconnects: Cardas Quadlink
Speaker cables: Goertz MI 3

With my current setup sometimes I feel like vocals are higher tonally then they should be. It’s doesn’t sound out of key, it just sounds like the voice is higher than it should be and the treble is dominating. Like the voice has lost some if its soul. It sounds a little top-heavy. Is this just the "B&W sound" that everyone talks about? Or is this a breakdown in the equipment somewhere?

I’m currently using a Cambridge Audio DacMagic. I’m wondering how I can take the "edge" off and move my system to the next level. I don’t have a lot of stereo shops in my area so demoing all kinds of gear will not be possible. I’m looking for some advice before I drive hours to find dealers.
Will I hear a difference upgrading my DAC? Or does the DAC have less affect on the system than say a new preamp or a new amplifier? I’ve also been considering upgrading to a McIntosh preamp/amp. But I will not be able upgrade both preamp and amp, since it’s so expensive!! I can only afford 1 right now. I know a lot of people love the McIntosh/B&W combination.

I’m looking at a few DACs online and I’m curious if anyone has any experience with the DacMagic and a comparison to or other nice DACs? My current list is:

Bryston BDA-1
Ayre Acoustics QB-9
Benchmark (many options)
Wyred 4 Sound W4S DAC-2
Wavelength Audio – Brick USB DAC V3

I’m open to suggestions. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks! :T

[stuofsci02]

I have 804s (so same midrange and tweeter as you) and have never found them to be bright. In fact I find B&W to be very neutral sounding.

I have auditioned the DACmagic in my home on my 804s with Rotel RCD-1072, Oppo BDP-83SE, and Squeezebox 3 (analog outputs). The source was the SB3 coaxial for the DACmagic.

In general I found that the DACmagic was a small improvement over the SB3 analog outputs. The Rotel was a little bigger improvement over the DACmagic and the Oppo 83SE was better then all of them.

I did not find however that the DACmagic was bright. It just didn't have the separation I found the Oppo had. It still sounded quite good mind you. If I was not A/B them and there was say 10 min between listening I would have a hard time picking.

I would look to the room first and then maybe the amp setup. After hours of auditions I found that the Chord Electronics amps are a really nice match to B&W. I guess thats why Abbey roads used to use Chord before B&W and Classe hooked up.

Cheers

[realalan]

I have a similar setup:

Mac > Optical Out > Cyrus DAC X > Balanced Out > Pre Amp

You could try swapping your RCA cables to your preamp or your optical cable, but the RCA would give you more noticeable difference than the optical IMO.

Also, try moving your speakers closer to wall (not sure how your speakers are placed at this present moment), to increase the low end frequency. Also, having speakers parallel to glazing will make it sound high end frequency heavy.

In the end it's a bit of experimenting required :T

[mb225]

I have 804s (so same midrange and tweeter as you) and have never found them to be bright. In fact I find B&W to be very neutral sounding.

I have auditioned the DACmagic in my home on my 804s with Rotel RCD-1072, Oppo BDP-83SE, and Squeezebox 3 (analog outputs). The source was the SB3 coaxial for the DACmagic.

In general I found that the DACmagic was a small improvement over the SB3 analog outputs. The Rotel was a little bigger improvement over the DACmagic and the Oppo 83SE was better then all of them.

I did not find however that the DACmagic was bright. It just didn't have the separation I found the Oppo had. It still sounded quite good mind you. If I was not A/B them and there was say 10 min between listening I would have a hard time picking.

I would look to the room first and then maybe the amp setup. After hours of auditions I found that the Chord Electronics amps are a really nice match to B&W. I guess thats why Abbey roads used to use Chord before B&W and Classe hooked up.

Cheers

Thanks stuofsci02, this is very helpful.

I've already done a lot to tone-down the room. I'll see if I can upload some photos of the room later today. Without adding acoustic panels (which I really don't want to do), I'm not really sure what else can be done.

Again thanks for the response. I'm really glad someone with 803s/804s has some feedback on the DacMagic.

It sounds like the amp might have a bigger impact on the kit. Just curious, did you get a chance to try out a McIntosh amp when you were looking at the Chord amps? I would be interested in your opinion since I don't have any Chord dealers near me.

[mb225]

I have a similar setup:

Mac > Optical Out > Cyrus DAC X > Balanced Out > Pre Amp

You could try swapping your RCA cables to your preamp or your optical cable, but the RCA would give you more noticeable difference than the optical IMO.

Also, try moving your speakers closer to wall (not sure how your speakers are placed at this present moment), to increase the low end frequency. Also, having speakers parallel to glazing will make it sound high end frequency heavy.

In the end it's a bit of experimenting required :T

I'm definitely going to try this. I tried moving the speakers around a few times. For some reason, I never tried moving them really close to the wall. :blink:

I've moved them to many different positions but never really noticed much of a change in tone/balance. I've noticed huge changes in imaging when moving them.

Right now the back of the 803s are 14 inches away from the wall (my dealer told me to give them as much breathing room as possible). I will try them snugged up against the wall and see if that changes things.

Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "parallel to glazing"? Do you mean parallel to a window or hard surface?

Thank you so much for your help!!

[mb225]

The room has hardwood and a window that is 14 feet wide!!! The rooms adjacent have hardwood and tile. But I’ve done as much as possible to soften the room. I’ve added an area rug and thick velvet-like curtains over the huge window.

The room has dual-purpose:
1) Living room & entertaining area
2) Listening to music

In this picture the room is setup as a living room.



The chairs can move and swivel and it’s setup as a listening room




This is the huge window which runs parallel to the speakers.



Doorway to the dining room



The back of the room. Notice all furniture is cloth.

[stuofsci02]

Thanks stuofsci02, this is very helpful.

I've already done a lot to tone-down the room. I'll see if I can upload some photos of the room later today. Without adding acoustic panels (which I really don't want to do), I'm not really sure what else can be done.

Again thanks for the response. I'm really glad someone with 803s/804s has some feedback on the DacMagic.

It sounds like the amp might have a bigger impact on the kit. Just curious, did you get a chance to try out a McIntosh amp when you were looking at the Chord amps? I would be interested in your opinion since I don't have any Chord dealers near me.

If you have done everything to the room you can, then it might be the electronics or maybe it is just too bright for your taste (this is always possible). I would also suggest trying something other then the optical output to the DACMagic.. Maybe you can try coaxial if possible, or just try a CD player via Coaxial. In most instance people prefer the Coax to optical.

I have heard the Rotel class D stuff with my 804s and it was fine, but seemed a little thin. I have not heard the 1582 before, but it seems like a capable amp.

I did not have a chance to audition Mac with the 804s. When I bought my 804s they were the only ones left in my area (Last Dec), and so I could not go and listen to Mac.

For me this was ok since most people find Mac to be a warm pleasing sound. This is fine, but it was not what I wanted. I like an amp that is fast and neutral, if that makes any sense. Some might find my Chord cold if they are used to a Mac, but I really like it. It has exceptional control of the speakers and is so lightning quick. I have not heard anything better to my ears with B&W speakers.

I would also steer away from moving them closer to the walls. This might cause your bass to be boomy which might give the feeling that the top end is tamed a bit, but IMO you will just be removing the preciseness of the 800 series speaker. I agree with you dealer... Let em breath..

[mb225]

Window curtains close when listening



Doorway curtains close for listening



This should address the first reflection points!?



Current speaker placement






I welcome comments on the room. I think I’ve done more than enough to flatten out (without acoustic panels). But maybe I’m wrong.

Thanks again everyone!

[stuofsci02]

Ahhh.. I see pictures now...

Nice home!

I really like your speaker positioning. I wouldn't change that at all except maybe toe in a little if you prefer that.

I think though that your bright sound may still be caused by your room. You definately have a lot of flat refective surfaces. I think the biggest culprit is that back wall. Even if you could take care of that I think you will have a big improvement.

Also I cannot tell but from the look of the pictures the ceiling is flat with no texture (stipple/stucco). This might be problem number two, but something you can do little about without ugly ceiling panels..

Lastly, when you listen are the blinds closed? *Edit*.. I now see the closed curtains..

[mb225]

Nice home!

Thanks!!

Also I cannot tell but from the look of the pictures the ceiling is flat with no texture (stipple/stucco). This might be problem number two, but something you can do little about without ugly ceiling panels.

Yes, ceiling is flat/smooth.

Lastly, when you listen are the blinds closed?

Yes, pictures in second post.

[stuofsci02]

I see now the second post.. I began typing my comment before you posted those, but submitted after.

I think a simple thing to try would be to get something like an old piece of carpet or rug and temporarily hang from the back wall to see what this does.

I think that your room is fairly large and so bass should be nice a tight and not overly loud, but the room is also reflective in parts (like back wall). High frequencies reflect the most. My concern is that you hear the highs twice. The first time when they pass your ears and then a little bit of reflection a fraction of a second later. This would IMO make it sound bright and a bit harsh/hollow. This combined with the tight bass would make your speakers sound brighter then they really are..

[mb225]

Hmm.... I knew it was coming, but I didn't want to hear that. I would almost rather buy new gear than tackle the room acoustics. 8O

Notice the room is wife-friendly (A.K.A it looks nice).

I wonder how she would feel if I stapled egg-crates to the walls and ceilings? :alol:

I guess it's a simple test to see if it's a room problem. Once I figure that out, I will need to find a visually aesthetic way to fix it. :nonod:

[stuofsci02]

Yeah... Room acoustics are a pain..

But it can be done in a wife friendly way. I don't think you should completely damp your room. There a lot of new products out there that are much more pleasing to the eye.

You can now have your favorite pictures/paintings matted on acoustic panels so they look like pictures.

The best test you can do is to go and clap in your room. If you can hear and echo then you will likely have a room issue. If you can damp it enough to get rid of that then you should be good.

And I don't think new gear will solve your problem..

[mb225]

But it can be done in a wife friendly way. I don't think you should completely damp your room. There a lot of new products out there that are much more pleasing to the eye.

You can now have your favorite pictures/paintings matted on acoustic panels so they look like pictures.

Can you point me to some of these products?

[wkhanna]

fyi:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/

http://www.readyacoustics.com/

http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html

Hope this helps.

[bigburner]

My current system is great but I still find it to be edgy or bright sometimes.
Is this just the "B&W sound" that everyone talks about? Or is this a breakdown in the equipment somewhere?

Last night I walked away from my equipment because it sounded edgy and bright. Earlier tonight it sounded fantastic. I know what the reasons are because I have experienced this many times before.

Reason 1: You're not in the mood. If you've had a good night's sleep, that large commission cheque arrived in the mail this afternoon, you had a fantastic blowjob an hour ago, and the Chardonnay you're drinking is so buttery you're sliding off the couch then any sound system will sound good. Sadly life isn't like that all the time so some days your system will sound shitty.

Reason 2. Some recordings are edgy and bright. Well lots are actually. When you put a good recording on your system will sound a lot better.

Don't lose faith. You are experiencing what a lot of us experience.

Or perhaps your whole system is crap and you need to upgrade? What do I know?

Nigel.

[mjb]

Nice lounge, and IMO there's enough furniture and pictures to break up any reflections! You might try demoing some diamond speakers. There's a good reason why B&W developed their expensive diamond drivers, and upgrading to 803D's might give you exactly the sound you're looking for.

[Chris D]

Sadly life isn't like that all the time so...

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, man. I only WISH my life was like that all the time. heck, right now, I'll take ANY of those things this year. :rofl: :rofl:

[mb225]

Also, try moving your speakers closer to wall (not sure how your speakers are placed at this present moment), to increase the low end frequency.

I think though that your bright sound may still be caused by your room. You definately have a lot of flat refective surfaces. I think the biggest culprit is that back wall. Even if you could take care of that I think you will have a big improvement.

Turns out you were both right.

1) I pinned an old comforter and a mattress egg-crate to the back wall. That made a huge difference! In fact I think it was too much. It made the back of the room sound dead. It no longer sounded like I was "in the music". I sounded like the music was coming from the front and going past me.

2) I tried moving the speakers closer to the wall. This did exactly what you predicted. It made the bass come out more and that masked the treble more. Unfortunately, now I understand why my dealer told me to give them as much room to "breath" as possible. When moving them closer to the wall it balanced the tone more but also made the bass very boomy.
After I moved the speakers my wife came in to see what I was doing and ask about the old bedding on the wall! :alol: She said... "why does the bass sound like that? it doesn't sound tight anymore."

Which leads me to my conclusion. It's most likely the room acoustics. I'm going to need some panels or something.

What I find interesting is when I had the bedding on the wall I found the treble was under control but... I still thought it lacked a little warmth in the vocals. Maybe this where equipment comes in. I still think acoustic treatment is my next step and undoubtedly will offer the most improvement.

Question:
Does the wall that the speakers are against matter for acoustic treatments? After putting the egg-crate on the back wall, it sounded like the front of the room was too lively. I will need to find a good balance.

[stuofsci02]

Turns out you were both right.

1) I pinned an old comforter and a mattress egg-crate to the back wall. That made a huge difference! In fact I think it was too much. It made the back of the room sound dead. It no longer sounded like I was "in the music". I sounded like the music was coming from the front and going past me.

2) I tried moving the speakers closer to the wall. This did exactly what you predicted. It made the bass come out more and that masked the treble more. Unfortunately, now I understand why my dealer told me to give them as much room to "breath" as possible. When moving them closer to the wall it balanced the tone more but also made the bass very boomy.
After I moved the speakers my wife came in to see what I was doing and ask about the old bedding on the wall! :alol: She said... "why does the bass sound like that? it doesn't sound tight anymore."

Which leads me to my conclusion. It's most likely the room acoustics. I'm going to need some panels or something.

What I find interesting is when I had the bedding on the wall I found the treble was under control but... I still thought it lacked a little warmth in the vocals. Maybe this where equipment comes in. I still think acoustic treatment is my next step and undoubtedly will offer the most improvement.

Question:
Does the wall that the speakers are against matter for acoustic treatments? After putting the egg-crate on the back wall, it sounded like the front of the room was too lively. I will need to find a good balance.

I am glad you found the possible culprit.

I would definately advise against deadening the whole back wall. I think you only want to remove the first reflection points.

The simplest way to do this is to sit where you would normally listen from and then have someone with a small mirror move it along the side and back walls. Where ever you can see the tweeter of a speaker is a good spot to put a panel or some other sound deadening material.

The wall the speakers are on are IMO the least important of the 4, but a lot of people will put a 48" x 24" panel behind each speaker.

As for warmth in a voice I cannot comment as I do not know what you are listening to. That said it may just be the recording, unless you know for sure it sounds different on another system.

Cheers

Stuart

[Dhart86]

Just a thought..........Have you considered tubes to add warmth and calm brightness. Tubed DAC or tube buffer. Do some research , it may help

[wushuliu]

I just happened to read some posts by Sean Olive of Harman Int'l over at Audioholics regarding the B&W 802N. Different model I know but his and other listeners' description/measurements of the sound made me think of this thread as someone there was also inquiring as to how to compensate for what he perceived as a similar forward/bright top end. Every room and listener is different of course, but from my own experience demoing B&Ws I just accepted that as part of their signature sound (which I did find pleasing, but don't think I could listen to for long periods). The whole thread is an interesting read.

This is in no way an indictment on B&Ws, btw, just some add'l info that may help in getting the best sound out of the room/speakers.

[Pio]

I was on the same boat you're in a few months ago. I was considering the Benchmark and Bryston DACs. I'm using a Sony ES, Denon 5910 and an old Adcom 5 disc changer - I flip between them all the time, honestly, they all sound pretty good. The Denon sounds the best - but the difference is not night and day.

I decided to tackle room acoustics - the difference is night and day! I have a dedicated room, so your situation is tough with the wife acceptance factor. But, trust me, if your wife is like mine, she aint gonna be too happy with you spending 2k on a DAC

By the looks of the pics, its very possible that the pictures you have above your gear and the bare wall behind your listening position are your biggest culprits of the edginess you hear. Auralex, ASC and other companies now offer wife friendly products that might fit your bill. In my experience, the front wall (behind the speakers) and back wall reflections can make a system sound hard.

Here are a couple of suggestions that I have no doubt will improve your sound instantly.

Treat the front and back wall - I use medium sized indoor plants to handle the sidewall reflections. Check http://www.auralexelite.com/ or http://www.asc-hifi.com/picture-panel.htm .

Move your gear from between the speakers - this will improve your imaging more than any DAC or cable will. Reflections from your gear in the middle might be causing a comb filtering effect that might be leading the edginess your hearing.

For music listening, move that table between the chairs out of the way, again, reflections from the hard surface do not contribute to the musical presentation.

Check out the "spouse friendly" section in real traps sight http://www.realtraps.com/products.htm . Your room looks beautiful the way it is - some of the products listed on these sites can be worked in to your decor. You will be amazed how great your gear can sound.

Warning - when I was shopping for acoustic products I ordered DIY panels from a company that kept my money for over 2 months (!) and never sent me their product. In an email exchange the president of the company blatantly wrote that their DIY products had no profit for them and it would take a bit longer. After 2 months I just had my credit card company refund me. Stick with reputable companies such as ASC, Real Traps and Auralex.

[mb225]

Thanks Pio!

It's great to get some information from someone that was having a similar problem. Just out of curiosity, what products did you use to treat your front and back wall?

I've been looking up acoustic treatments and I'm not exactly sure where to begin.

I have approval to put in a few panels as long as they don't stand out too much. I was going to go the DIY mode since I can select my own fabrics and it seems to be a lot less expensive! But I have to think a lot of physics goes into creating an effective panel?

I have a few basic questions about acoustic treatments:

1) Is DIY a good idea, or is this something that we should leave to the experts? I do a lot of carpentry as a hobby but I don't have a lot of experience with sound physics.

2) What is a bass trap?
I keep reading that he best place to treat a room is in the corners and will offer the most bass trapping. But I don't have an issue with bass, my issue is with highs.

2) ASC offers something called a tube trap. In the right color, I think these would blend in if installed in the corners of my room. However, a 4' round trap cost $500! If I bought 4, one for each corner, that would be $2,000! Would a product like this help with highs? Or is this for bass control?

Or would I be looking for something like a wall panel?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! :T

[Kal Rubinson]

There are sites with lots of information:

http://forum.studiotips.com/

https://www.realtraps.com

https://www.gikacoustics.com

[Pio]

Thanks Pio!

It's great to get some information from someone that was having a similar problem. Just out of curiosity, what products did you use to treat your front and back wall?

I've been looking up acoustic treatments and I'm not exactly sure where to begin.

I used the 2" 2x4 panels from Auralex Lite, they're covered in a suede like material and blend well with my walls and are fairly inexpensive.

Begin with a few panels in the front wall between the speakers and the back wall. Do it a step at a time and avoid over treating your room. A room thats too acoustically dead sounds just as bad as one that is too lively.

Also, keep in mind that things like carpets on walls and egg crates will only treat the highest of frequencies and might make your sound to mid rangy. Get true panels designed for acoustics. A 1" thick panel will treat mostly high frequencies while 2" panels absorb highs and mids. 6" thick panels will get you into the 100hz range.

I have approval to put in a few panels as long as they don't stand out too much. I was going to go the DIY mode since I can select my own fabrics and it seems to be a lot less expensive! But I have to think a lot of physics goes into creating an effective panel?

There are companies that offer turn key DIY products but be warned that the company I tried using stiffed me and for months kept me waiting on the products I had ordered.

On the "physics" on an acoustic panel, what you need to know is the thicker the panel the lower the frequencies it will absorb. A 1" thick panel will not do anything to absorb at frequencies around 250 hz. The trick to acoustic panels is where you place them. Where it gets tricky is if your doing a helmholtz resonator, I doubt the wife would like that LOL!

I have a few basic questions about acoustic treatments:

1) Is DIY a good idea, or is this something that we should leave to the experts? I do a lot of carpentry as a hobby but I don't have a lot of experience with sound physics.

If your a skilled carpenter, you can build your own panels and save lots of money and really design something you like. There's not a lot of "physics" involved unless your doing a professional studio. Think about it, lots of people use strategically placed furniture as acoustic treatment. Wheres the physics in that? Build your own panels and stuff them with compressed fiber glass like Owens Corning 703 or 704 http://owenscorningcommercial.com/da...ly_product=1_1

2) What is a bass trap?
I keep reading that he best place to treat a room is in the corners and will offer the most bass trapping. But I don't have an issue with bass, my issue is with highs.

A bass trap is a device that absorbs the lowest frequencies. Bass traps go in the corners of your room. The problem with bass is that the waves are very long, a 20hz wave is like 56 (!)+ ft long. Generally the bigger the room the better the bass will be. Small rooms are tough, square rooms are the worse because of this.

What happens is that these low frequencies clump up in the corners of your room and cancel certain frequencies and boost others. If your happy with your bass, focus on the mids and highs. However, you would be amazed how tight and deep your bass response can get with the proper bass traps.

2) ASC offers something called a tube trap. In the right color, I think these would blend in if installed in the corners of my room. However, a 4' round trap cost $500! If I bought 4, one for each corner, that would be $2,000! Would a product like this help with highs? Or is this for bass control?

ASC makes amazing products. They are however very expensive and you should not get into that unless you know specifically what you need. ASC tube traps are bass absorbers primarily - the frequency they absorb depends on the size of the tube, example, the 16" tube takes care of issues in the 50hz range.

These tubes either absorb or diffuse mids and highs depending on which part of the tube you face to the listening area.

If I were in your shoes I would go for broadband absorbers like Real Traps. You will get the bass traps benefit along with mid and high absorption.

Also, colors on your computer screen and in real life are very different. If your going to go with any product and decor is a big concern get samples first.

Or would I be looking for something like a wall panel?

T

Look, I've been married for almost 20 years and my wife knows I'm crazy about stuff like this, so she puts up with certain things in my dedicated room. However, it still has to "look nice". Only you know how tolerant your spouse is and what will be acceptable. Take it one panel at a time, start with the front and back walls. That should really help take the edge of.

As for bass response, try covering the corners with a bookshelf or some other piece of furniture at a 45 dg angle, corners are the enemies of great bass.

A good and fairly in-expensive test (about $250) to know if you need bass absorption is this, go online and buy a box of Auralex LENRDs (low end node reduction device). Eight come to a box. Place them in the corners of your room and listen. If you like what you hear, you know that there is better bass to be had.

You can sell the LENRDs on ebay and make some of your money back. Good plan before you spend 2k on ASC tube traps, dont you think?

Go to amazon.com and search for books on the subject ( http://www.amazon.com/Master-Handboo...6851973&sr=8-4 ). If your a techy about sound your gonna love the info on books like "Master Handbook Of Acoustics" and "The Acoustics and Psycho-acoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" amongst other.

Above all else, remember to have fun while your at it! :T

[Pio]

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=514592&postcount=3415

Click on this link so you can see how this member is using the LENRDs

[Industrial]

I know I really need sound treatments myself (new place). But having my setup in my last place which had amazing acoustics for its size I found my Benchmark DAC1 was a huge upgrade in sound over the Rotel 15 series I'm using. I got to compare it to a few "mid" priced DAC's and found it sounded the most like whatever was in the Audio Research CD player (cost over 7k) the dealer was using as a source. Clearer highs, mids less muffled and sounds more "separated" and the bass was tighter. I play around with this now and then, I use the same source material and switch between the internal Dacs of my rotel preamp and the DAC1. To me its not just a "slight" difference.

[Kal Rubinson]

Foam-based panels and traps are inherently less effective than products based on compressed fiberglass (e.g., OC703 or OC705). The differential becomes more and more significant as the frequency lowers into the bass. There are tests which indicate this at http://forum.studiotips.com/ and www.realtraps.com.

[impala454]

I noticed Emotiva just came out with a new DAC... anyone have thoughts on it yet?

http://emotiva.com/xda1.shtm

[Chris D]

Hey, Pio, you have an AWESOME setup. You should stop by Club Parasound here in the Guide, and share your pictures and experiences. Would LOVE to have your setup!

[Pio]

Hi Chris!!

I'm always hanging around the Parasound and B&W clubs! Thanks for moderating such an awesome site! I've learned and saved a bunch of $$ because of it!

Pio

[mb225]

I used the 2" 2x4 panels from Auralex Lite, they're covered in a suede like material and blend well with my walls and are fairly inexpensive.

Begin with a few panels in the front wall between the speakers and the back wall. Do it a step at a time and avoid over treating your room. A room thats too acoustically dead sounds just as bad as one that is too lively.

Also, keep in mind that things like carpets on walls and egg crates will only treat the highest of frequencies and might make your sound to mid rangy. Get true panels designed for acoustics. A 1" thick panel will treat mostly high frequencies while 2" panels absorb highs and mids. 6" thick panels will get you into the 100hz range.




There are companies that offer turn key DIY products but be warned that the company I tried using stiffed me and for months kept me waiting on the products I had ordered.

On the "physics" on an acoustic panel, what you need to know is the thicker the panel the lower the frequencies it will absorb. A 1" thick panel will not do anything to absorb at frequencies around 250 hz. The trick to acoustic panels is where you place them. Where it gets tricky is if your doing a helmholtz resonator, I doubt the wife would like that LOL!




If your a skilled carpenter, you can build your own panels and save lots of money and really design something you like. There's not a lot of "physics" involved unless your doing a professional studio. Think about it, lots of people use strategically placed furniture as acoustic treatment. Wheres the physics in that? Build your own panels and stuff them with compressed fiber glass like Owens Corning 703 or 704 http://owenscorningcommercial.com/da...ly_product=1_1



A bass trap is a device that absorbs the lowest frequencies. Bass traps go in the corners of your room. The problem with bass is that the waves are very long, a 20hz wave is like 56 (!)+ ft long. Generally the bigger the room the better the bass will be. Small rooms are tough, square rooms are the worse because of this.

What happens is that these low frequencies clump up in the corners of your room and cancel certain frequencies and boost others. If your happy with your bass, focus on the mids and highs. However, you would be amazed how tight and deep your bass response can get with the proper bass traps.




ASC makes amazing products. They are however very expensive and you should not get into that unless you know specifically what you need. ASC tube traps are bass absorbers primarily - the frequency they absorb depends on the size of the tube, example, the 16" tube takes care of issues in the 50hz range.

These tubes either absorb or diffuse mids and highs depending on which part of the tube you face to the listening area.

If I were in your shoes I would go for broadband absorbers like Real Traps. You will get the bass traps benefit along with mid and high absorption.

Also, colors on your computer screen and in real life are very different. If your going to go with any product and decor is a big concern get samples first.



Look, I've been married for almost 20 years and my wife knows I'm crazy about stuff like this, so she puts up with certain things in my dedicated room. However, it still has to "look nice". Only you know how tolerant your spouse is and what will be acceptable. Take it one panel at a time, start with the front and back walls. That should really help take the edge of.

As for bass response, try covering the corners with a bookshelf or some other piece of furniture at a 45 dg angle, corners are the enemies of great bass.

A good and fairly in-expensive test (about $250) to know if you need bass absorption is this, go online and buy a box of Auralex LENRDs (low end node reduction device). Eight come to a box. Place them in the corners of your room and listen. If you like what you hear, you know that there is better bass to be had.

You can sell the LENRDs on ebay and make some of your money back. Good plan before you spend 2k on ASC tube traps, dont you think?

Go to amazon.com and search for books on the subject ( http://www.amazon.com/Master-Handboo...6851973&sr=8-4 ). If your a techy about sound your gonna love the info on books like "Master Handbook Of Acoustics" and "The Acoustics and Psycho-acoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" amongst other.

Above all else, remember to have fun while your at it! :T

Thanks Pio!! Great post. :T This is very helpful information! I'm really excited about this project. I think if I can tune-in my room, I will get the performance I'm looking for.

Some of the panels don't look too bad, I think it's something I can work with. I'm already saving up to buy some panels.

[mrciave]

Thanks Pio!

mb225 is not the only one that will benefit from your explanation. Lots of knowledge and experience in your posts.

I'm lucky my wife also enjoys the music and accepts to sacrifice the aestethics (at least partially) in favor of good sound. Seems also mb's wife is quite knowledgeable, she immediately noticed the effect of speaker positioning.

I have to be honest, I use wife judgment as the final confirmation whether it's just my feeling or a true sonic difference.

[dtb300]

GIK and Real Traps are super people to deal with in assisting you in getting your room acoustics tamed. Like others have stated, deal with companies who do this for a living for home and professional sound improvements.

Treating your room with be one of your highest cost vs performance changes in your rig you will do.

In my room, which I call my Concrete Audio Bunker, is a partial basement. Concrete everywhere, dropped ceiling, etc. It is reflection heaven, and unbelievable room gain for bass - read TOO MUCH.

Here is what I have:

All 4 corners of room: GIK 244 Trap in each corner (straddling) - floor to ceiling. Behind those I have 4" Bonded Acoustical Cotton floor to ceiling. Total of 8 GIK's and 8 BAC's.

Reflection Point panels on side wall and front wall behind speakers: I use 2" Bonded Acoustical Cotton reflection panels - (7 total)

Rear Wall: GIK 244 Traps behind seating position and along back wall (3 total)

Front Wall behind Sub - GIK 244 panel horizontal along floor/wall seam (1 total)

Drop ceiling: Stuffed with 5.5" Bulk Acoustical Cotton in ceiling joists

[realalan]

Looks like you don't need to find a new DAC!

The curtains will certainly help a bit (although strange to have them pulled shut during the day!), but they need to be pretty heavy to work for sound absorption.

I would also suggest as an another option is to use the back wall for books or your CD, DVD or Bluray collection - it'll help with some sound absorption rather than the reflection you currently have. Although these 'home improvements' will need a bit of negotiation with the missus ;x(

Speaker toe in will help with your focus of sound, not the bass.

[Pio]

I would also suggest as an another option is to use the back wall for books or your CD, DVD or Bluray collection - it'll help with some sound absorption rather than the reflection you currently have.

Books, cd's, etc, would help to diffuse the sound. To absorb you need heavy curtains, sound panels, etc.

[cZwUV620]

In case you decide to go the DAC route, I strongly recommend considering the Neko Audio D100. I used it to replace my Rotel player and it was much better IMO. It's very, very effortless and natural sounding -- not harsh or fatiguing at all.

It's slightly more than the Wyred4Sound so you won't be breaking the bank.

[mb225]

Just curious... does anyone have experiece with Acoustical Solutions?

http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/

I've been looking at some of there acoustic panels but wanted to see they are difficult to work with or make substandard products.

[Pio]

Does anyone have experience with external DACs? My current system is great but I still find it to be edgy or bright sometimes.....

I’m looking at a few DACs online and I’m curious if anyone has any experience with the DacMagic and a comparison to or other nice DACs? My current list is:

Bryston BDA-1
Ayre Acoustics QB-9
Benchmark (many options)
Wyred 4 Sound W4S DAC-2
Wavelength Audio – Brick USB DAC V3

I’m open to suggestions. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks! :T

mb225 - My wife got me a Benchmark DAC Pre for Christmas - I connected it to an old Adcom CD player and my Wadia iPod transport (had been using an old Krell for DA conversion) - anyways, wanted to let you know that the sound is definitely smoother, the bass line is clearly more audible and it just sounds fantastic.

This is coming from someone who has never heard the difference in comparable rca, xlr or speaker cables.

If your system still sounds harsh after the sound treatment - check out the Benchmark. I've heard the Bryston is amazing as well, but I havent heard it on my system. Just wanted to share.

[madmac]

I've found that paintings mounted around the room where you listen to music make excellent 'acoustic absorption pannels'. Also stated above, speaker placement is HUGE!. Just moving speakers an inch in any direction make a very audible difference in how they sound. Achieving good audio is a slow....long process that can go on for years until you get it just right!!. That's the fun of it !! :-)

[mb225]

Update: I bought some acoustic panels from www.acousticalsolutions.com and they came in last night. I didn’t have time to wall-mount them but I was able to stand them up around the room.

They look really good. Well, I guess I should say they look good for an acoustic treatment.

I got 6 panels that are 4’x2’. Two of them are 2” deep and four of them are 1” deep.

From some very quick testing it sounds like they made significant changes. Good and bad. It really changed the vocals and the highs. The vocals come out a lot more and the harshness has been tamed in most recordings. But it also seems like the bass has been absorbed as well. I really liked the bass before the panels, but now it seems like the system lost it’s kick. It also seems like the vocals lost a bit of their shine. It doesn’t sound (as much) like the artist is in the room anymore.

Again, this is just from some quick testing. I will need to move the panels around and see if that changes anything.

[Industrial]

mb225 - My wife got me a Benchmark DAC Pre for Christmas - anyways, wanted to let you know that the sound is definitely smoother, the bass line is clearly more audible and it just sounds fantastic.

This is coming from someone who has never heard the difference in comparable rca, xlr or speaker cables.

I have the Benchmark DAC1 and feel the exact same way. Ive heard other high end dacs they are supposed to give even more detail etc, they just sounded bright and grainy to me.

[specialized]

I have the Benchmark DAC1 and feel the exact same way. Ive heard other high end dacs they are supposed to give even more detail etc, they just sounded bright and grainy to me.

I sold my McIntosh C2300 after getting Benchmark DAC1 PRE. Now im using DAC1 directly connected to Krell FPB-300C. Sound is maybe too analitical (McIntosh make it softer), but it's more real.. Benchmark is amazing DAC1. Sound very tight, very open..Also USB connection work very good (the best sound im getting when i play high resolution files from computer)
Also i noticed the cable make a big difference ( i ended with cable on cheap side, which sounded much better then some much more expensive ones)


Greetings

[Sasha99]

Good day

I have DAC Magic to, runinng my PC, to CAP 151 (temporary preamp), Classe CA 2200 power amp to synchrony ones. I have experienced some of that harshness and brigtness with with DAC magic as well. However it is an issue only on the higher volume levels. I think that my old speaker cables could be the culprit. In my opinion, it is biting my Marantz SA 8260 SACD player, when I use digital out from the player, Upsampling is really great. Where it really shines is on a 24/96 hi rez recording.
But after a six months, I am planing upgrade to.
I did not have a chance to compare DAC magic in side by side comparison. Value of that DAC really won over.
Classe audio is coming out with a great new product, preamp with integrated DAC.

I can give you an advice that has solved many sound issues for me. Your room is very "lean" in furniture and carpeting. B&W works better in relatively more sound absorbingn rooms....
However, one easey fix (you have to try that while your wife is not at home

Find 2 big pillows and put them in the corner behind speakers.....you will notice unbelievable difference in improvemnet in sound. It will tame you high's and tighthen your bass.

Let us know please if it helps?

Sasha

Does anyone have experience with external DACs? My current system is great but I still find it to be edgy or bright sometimes. I’ve been reading a lot of reviews on DACs lately and I was wondering if that should be my next upgrade? A lot of the reviews of DACs seem to address jitter and use phrases like "not edgy" or "not fatiguing".

My current setup is:
Mac Mini -> Optical Out -> Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Rotel RC-1550 preamp
Rotel RB-1582 amp
B&W 803s
Interconnects: Cardas Quadlink
Speaker cables: Goertz MI 3

With my current setup sometimes I feel like vocals are higher tonally then they should be. It’s doesn’t sound out of key, it just sounds like the voice is higher than it should be and the treble is dominating. Like the voice has lost some if its soul. It sounds a little top-heavy. Is this just the "B&W sound" that everyone talks about? Or is this a breakdown in the equipment somewhere?

I’m currently using a Cambridge Audio DacMagic. I’m wondering how I can take the "edge" off and move my system to the next level. I don’t have a lot of stereo shops in my area so demoing all kinds of gear will not be possible. I’m looking for some advice before I drive hours to find dealers.
Will I hear a difference upgrading my DAC? Or does the DAC have less affect on the system than say a new preamp or a new amplifier? I’ve also been considering upgrading to a McIntosh preamp/amp. But I will not be able upgrade both preamp and amp, since it’s so expensive!! I can only afford 1 right now. I know a lot of people love the McIntosh/B&W combination.

I’m looking at a few DACs online and I’m curious if anyone has any experience with the DacMagic and a comparison to or other nice DACs? My current list is:

Bryston BDA-1
Ayre Acoustics QB-9
Benchmark (many options)
Wyred 4 Sound W4S DAC-2
Wavelength Audio – Brick USB DAC V3

I’m open to suggestions. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks! :T