In Defence of Multichannel mixes

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Ovation
    Super Senior Member
    • Sep 2004
    • 2204

    #1

    In Defence of Multichannel mixes

    I posted this on a British forum (and a few other places as well) but got little reaction (though an earlier debate in that same forum revealed a serious antipathy toward MCH music). I put this to you all and ask for comments.

    Regardless of preference for two channel vs MCH and the level of equipment one has on hand, I believe the case against multichannel is the same kind of case as was once made against stereo back when mono was king. I've raised this several times here and elsewhere and no one seems to have a comment one way or another, which I find odd. Of course, as an historian, my fascination for things considered out of date (like mono vs stereo) is probably not shared by the majority of gadget-geeks (which I also am).

    In the early days of stereo, the kinds of complaints I hear/read regularly today about MCH mixes were almost the same. People complained about "gimmicky" mixes that "ping-ponged" across (rather than around, as today's MCH mixes) the soundstage for no good reason. Also, the expanded sense of spaciousness (which I LOVE about well done MCH mixes today) was often criticized as presenting a sonic image out of proproportion to the imagined venue. There just seemed to be a lot of "silliness" that was superfluous and seemed only designed to draw unwarranted attention to itself. And it was true. There were mixes like that in the early days of stereo, just as there are today in the early days of MCH mixes. Stereo grew up, so to speak, and I'm confident MCH will as well. In fact, I'd say the majority of the mixes are already mature in that sense.

    An additional barrier to acceptance of MCH mixes, again IMO, is it represents a "paradigm shift" in the way we receive the musical experience. 99% of music listeners are not music makers. They've never been in a recording studio during a jam session or onstage with a band or in a choir or orchestra or etc. As such, they've always received music (when purposefully listening, at any rate) from in front. In that sense, the change from mono to stereo represented a change of degree, not kind. Stereo expanded the soundstage, gave it depth as well breadth, but it remained up front. I can understand the conditioning that makes most people more comfortable with the idea of music coming from in front of them--particularly a live recording, as it represents their seating position vis a vis the performers. People who attend concerts, whether rock or classical, will say, "I wasn't surrounded by the music, the players were up front".

    To that I say: yes and no. It's true that at a live performance, your main source of sound is from the front. But sound reflects all around the room/venue and you are, in effect, "surrounded" by the music. It's just that not all of it is directly radiating at you. The "ambient hall" mixes found on most classical and many live concert recordings are trying to recreate this sense of space--and many do it quite well. A well set up set of stereo speakers and gear can give some impression of this space, but the room in which you listen to your gear is not the same as the recording venue and I think, as good as stereo can be, properly done ambient MCH mixes capture that spaciousness even better. And those mixes are far from "gimmicky".

    Let's look at the "gimmicky" mixes, or, as I like to call them, "in the band" mixes. I've been in recording studios, choirs and onstage, so I don't find the "in the band" perspective unusual. But even if I didn't have those experiences, I would still like to listen to "in the band" mixes. It's one thing to argue that live performances are "in front" of the audience, and so should be mixed that way to reflect reality. In the studio, however, there is no "front". Most often, the individual tracks are played separately and mixed later. Traditionally, mixes have been directed to the "front", as that was the kind of playback gear available. But now, with the ability to play back DISCRETE MCH mixes, the mixers/artists are no longer bound by that constraint. Does it always make a good mix? No. But the same can be said of stereo. I think it's a question of acclimatization. Perhaps, as others suggest, it will never take off. It's possible, as the masses are generally far less adventurous than they'd like to believe. If true, I'll be sad, as I find the possibilities available to MCH mixers still largely untapped. But I don't think "in the band" mixes deserve the scorn heaped upon them by many "traditionalists", for lack of a better term.

    Anyway, I've rambled enough, so I'm signing off for now. I know I won't likely convert anyone (MCH vs stereo seems a bit too much like Republicans vs Democrats, these days) but I think MCH deserves more careful consideration than it's getting and this is my little plea for some of that consideration.

    In the end, though, as I often say and write--no matter what the format or the number of channels--it's about enjoying the tunes.
  • Paul H
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2004
    • 904

    #2
    Originally posted by Ovation
    ... I believe the case against multichannel is the same kind of case as was once made against stereo back when mono was king. I've raised this several times here and elsewhere and no one seems to have a comment one way or another, which I find odd. ...


    I believe there is a tremendous amount of apathy for multichannel sound, largely because of competing formats and poor availibility of titles.

    It's not that people are opposed to DVD-A or SACD - they just don't give a damn.

    Paul

    Comment

    • Snap
      Super Senior Member
      • Feb 2005
      • 1295

      #3
      :agree:

      The only thing that I can see MCH stuff is for LIVE recordings. But that is just me. Using Adobe, and Pro Tools LE I can make 5.1 stuff If I wanted to. But one thing I throw out to you........ Lots of people spend a LOT of time in their CARS. I listen to more music in my car than I do in my HT system. ( My Car is stereo) With that being said, why spend all the extra money making the MCH stuff, when....People don't care, they are using the IPOD, and their

      Most people kind of the like the concert type sound. I know that I do. I only use 5 chan stereo if I am in a place that has SAT or Book Shelf Speakers. 5 Chan Stereo sounds like crud on my system. ( I know that 5 Chan Stereo is NOT MCH stuff. Just making a comment )

      But for my type of music that I love it is hard enough to find a good recording in stereo much less multi channel! The music I like needs serious help when you play it through a good system :cry: It really is SAD. ops:

      (I have to use other types of music to test and tune systems)
      Last edited by Snap; 02 June 2005, 20:20 Thursday. Reason: d
      The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

      Comment

      • Chris D
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Dec 2000
        • 16875

        #4
        well-thought out. Thanx!
        CHRIS

        Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
        - Pleasantville

        Comment

        • csuzor
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 413

          #5
          I agree with Ovation.

          6 months ago I decided to upgrade a 10y old denon+kef stereo system, and I had never really heard about sacd / dvd-a / dd / dts etc. I purchased 2 new speakers, a new mch amp, a dvd player (philips without sacd, because I didn't want to spend an extra $20 for sacd capability!), and I asked a lot of questions about the usefullness of a centre channel. I argued that the phantom image was sufficient... but I let myself be convinced on htguide that I needed the centre channel for movies. And I put the old speakers as surrounds...

          Then I bought a few hybrid cds, thinking of the possibility to try mch sacd later.

          Then I bought a better dvd player, with sacd capability. Since that day, my cd collection is gathering dust, and I have exclusively bought sacd. The transformation with the quality and surround music immersion, has convinced me to spend the little time I have every week to only listen that way.

          My music mix has changed, to take advantage of that clarity, to more acoustic and symphonic music rather than electronic or pop/rock music, so that is well matched to the available sacd (and probably with reason, because that is the music than can advantage of the medium).

          There are bad mch mixes, which artificially spread some sounds around the room, but most good sacd sound like good recordings: they actually represent the real sound distribution around the recording scene, and transport the listener close by.

          See also my recent post on this topic


          Christophe

          PS. I just tried listening to the stereo tracks again, for fun... The phantom stereo image my brain has to reconstruct takes some training again, because it was not doing it for some time.

          The brain is amazing, it can be conditioned to do anything involuntarily, such as reconstruct a person singing in the middle of 2 stereo channels... which is quite different to actually having someone sing in front of you. The brain can fool you into thinking the person is really there, if that's what you want.

          But get used to listening to good mch, and you'll see how difficult it is to go back to imagining the phantom image... It's just not as convincing.

          Even if you don't like the "surround effects", 3 front channels is a must.

          Christophe
          Last edited by csuzor; 03 June 2005, 05:27 Friday.

          Comment

          • gostan
            Senior Member
            • May 2003
            • 445

            #6
            I am a big fan of dsd and 2 channel sacd mixes. I tend to gravitate to the 2 channel v. the mc mix on hybrid discs. My own take is that some multichannel recordings work and many do not. I am sure that traditionalists will not agree with me, but the best multichannel recording that I have listened to is the new 20th Anniversary Edition of Dire Straits Brothers In Arms. The sq and use of 5.1 make this the best multi-channel test disc released to date. There is still life to multichannel. Give it a try.

            Ovation you are right on the mark with your comments.
            Stan

            Comment

            • Snap
              Super Senior Member
              • Feb 2005
              • 1295

              #7
              Just did a search on the web, and I can't find and DVDA or SACD for what I like to listen to on a regular basis. Trying out systems and tunning systems I use Jazz and Blues. But just to listen to music I like Contempary Christian. And I just can't find any SACD or DVDA
              The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

              Comment

              • methenyfan11
                Junior Member
                • May 2005
                • 25

                #8
                I'm totally with Ovation on this question. I find the multichannel SACD incredibly rich and engaging, if not traditional. Putting different instruments into seperate speakers seems to give the system an ability to articulate and seperate the individual sources better, without in any way compromising the music and focus. I do 'give a damn' and hope one of the formats makes it so we can have more titles with higher res and ideally available multichannel versions.

                Comment

                • Snap
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Feb 2005
                  • 1295

                  #9
                  Just saw that Pink Floyd has Dark Side of the Moon in SACD. I wonder what that sounds like?
                  The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

                  Comment

                  • methenyfan11
                    Junior Member
                    • May 2005
                    • 25

                    #10
                    I have the pink floyd Dark Side SACD!

                    IT's a really FUN mix and very dynamic. Definately even more involving than the regular cd. The bass sounds a tad distored in some tracks, that's the only complaint. Some may find the multi mix in this particular recording too gimmicky, as sounds to go around the room a lot in the first few songs esp., but I think that's appropriate for this particular album. Dark Side, Gaucho, Avalon - are all awesome examples of what SACD can do. Enjoy, Methenyfan

                    Comment

                    • Stoney
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2004
                      • 232

                      #11
                      Sorry Snap, can't help myself on this one, how does Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon fit into the Contemporary Christian Genre? :W

                      No offense meant, I am also Christian and I also appreciate Pink Floyd's artistry,though not allways their subject matter or themes.
                      Emotiva UPA-700 Amp
                      Emotiva UMC 200 pre/pro
                      B&W DM605 S2 Mains
                      DM602 S2 Surrounds
                      DM601 S2 Rear Surrounds
                      CC6 S2 Center.
                      ASW 1000 Sub

                      Comment

                      • Snap
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Feb 2005
                        • 1295

                        #12
                        :rofl:

                        I knew that, that the last post was going to come back to bite me in the tail. I was having "flash Backs" of my High School Days!

                        I went to a Laser Light Show one time and it was to that album.

                        You are right it does not fit in to that genre.

                        I just hate the fact that most Christian music is NOT recorded very well. It definatly comes to light when you play it through a good system. :cry:
                        The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

                        Comment

                        • Jack Keck
                          Member
                          • Jan 2005
                          • 57

                          #13
                          AFter listening to exactly two multi-channel discs, one SACD and one DVD-A, I think that gimmicky may be alright on some albums. My DVD-A is Tommy by the Who. Being a "rock opera", I think it benefits from the multi-channel treatment. Most rock music is a studio creation in the first place, so why not use a little gimmicry. It's supposed to be fun, isn't it? And what is more fun than something one doesn't expect?

                          I would appreciate such gimickry less in an acoustic mix such as jazz, classical or folk. In those instances, all of the instruments do belong in front, but some ambience from the rear channels would have to give the listener a "you are there" feeling.

                          Then again, there is Berlioz's Requem, in which four brass choruses and eight pair of tympani were scored to be in four corners of the listening area. Now THAT would be impressive in multi-channel!

                          Darn it! Now I'll have to see if there is a multi-channel recording of Berlioz's Requem.
                          Jack

                          "I walked in a lot of place that I never shoulda been, but I know that the Messiah, He will come again."

                          Roy Buchanan

                          Comment

                          • Ovation
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Sep 2004
                            • 2204

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jack Keck
                            AFter listening to exactly two multi-channel discs, one SACD and one DVD-A, I think that gimmicky may be alright on some albums. My DVD-A is Tommy by the Who. Being a "rock opera", I think it benefits from the multi-channel treatment. Most rock music is a studio creation in the first place, so why not use a little gimmicry. It's supposed to be fun, isn't it? And what is more fun than something one doesn't expect?
                            My feelings exactly (particularly the part I put in bold).

                            I would appreciate such gimickry less in an acoustic mix such as jazz, classical or folk. In those instances, all of the instruments do belong in front, but some ambience from the rear channels would have to give the listener a "you are there" feeling.
                            The vast majority of these genres are mixed that way in MCH, for the reasons you cite, I'd suspect. AIX Records make DVD-As that include audience and stage surround mixes for classical and jazz. Worth getting a couple to experiment. The recording quality is top notch.

                            Then again, there is Berlioz's Requem, in which four brass choruses and eight pair of tympani were scored to be in four corners of the listening area. Now THAT would be impressive in multi-channel!

                            Darn it! Now I'll have to see if there is a multi-channel recording of Berlioz's Requem.
                            There are several. RCA Living Stereo has a three channel (originally done in three channel back in the day) on SACD that is an excellent recording, but does not engage the rear channels. Go to SA-CD.net and search for Berlioz. You'll find a more modern one there. It's a great site for keeping abreast of SACD releases. Kal Rubinson's column "Music in the Round" over at Stereophile's website (his articles are free access) is another great place to learn more about MCH setups and releases (I've bought several discs based on his articles and have yet to be disappointed). Highfidelityreview.com is another good place for hi-res reviews.

                            Comment

                            • Jack Keck
                              Member
                              • Jan 2005
                              • 57

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ovation
                              There are several. RCA Living Stereo has a three channel (originally done in three channel back in the day) on SACD that is an excellent recording, but does not engage the rear channels. Go to SA-CD.net and search for Berlioz. You'll find a more modern one there. It's a great site for keeping abreast of SACD releases. Kal Rubinson's column "Music in the Round" over at Stereophile's website (his articles are free access) is another great place to learn more about MCH setups and releases (I've bought several discs based on his articles and have yet to be disappointed). Highfidelityreview.com is another good place for hi-res reviews.
                              Thanks.

                              I went to Dearborn Music (local independent music store) at lunch where I found the Munch SACD as well as two others. Decisions, decisions.
                              Jack

                              "I walked in a lot of place that I never shoulda been, but I know that the Messiah, He will come again."

                              Roy Buchanan

                              Comment

                              • RebelMan
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Mar 2005
                                • 3139

                                #16
                                I tend to agree with Paul H on this subject that many people are really just not that interested in multi-channel music. Personally, I am neither for nor against it. Afterall, who said music has to be played through one or two channels? Why not have three or more?

                                I suspect the real answer to this question comes down to practicallity and affordability. Sure, people run multiple channels for home theater to create the sound effects that matches the special effects they see on the screen.

                                However, reproducing music in such a "realistic" way, I believe, demands more from a given system. I believe most people that want that kind of realism will just buy tickets and go. It's much easier to recreate the "movie theater" experience at home than it is a musical theater.
                                "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                Comment

                                • ColoKurt
                                  Member
                                  • Mar 2005
                                  • 58

                                  #17
                                  Has anybody tried multi-channel audio with a center speaker that is off-center--say in a 25-75 position rather than 50-50 between the fronts? My room would put this constraint on me if I were to buy a center channel speaker. My current thinking is the off-center placement would degrade the multi-channel experience so much that it just isn't worth the bother.

                                  All comments are welcome.

                                  Comment

                                  • csuzor
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2004
                                    • 413

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by ColoKurt
                                    Has anybody tried multi-channel audio with a center speaker that is off-center--say in a 25-75 position rather than 50-50 between the fronts? My room would put this constraint on me if I were to buy a center channel speaker.
                                    I had difficulty getting the placement right for the 5 channels. I rearranged the lounge room several times over a few weeks (got into trouble with my wife, but after a few days she stops complaining), and eventually settled on a corner layout (TV and Center in the corner, L and sL on the same wall, R and sR on the same wall), with -80/-30/0/+30/+80 degree relative to ideal sitting position. However, there are 2 sofas, so usually at least 1 person, if not all, are not sitting in the ideal position, except when I am alone.

                                    So, don't worry too much about ideal positions, but allow yourself to play with the positioning significantly until it sounds as good as you can get. It's sure to be better than just stereo, if you don't mind spending the money for a good center channel.

                                    Comment

                                    • ToddAnisman
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Apr 2005
                                      • 142

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by ColoKurt
                                      Has anybody tried multi-channel audio with a center speaker that is off-center--say in a 25-75 position rather than 50-50 between the fronts? My room would put this constraint on me if I were to buy a center channel speaker. My current thinking is the off-center placement would degrade the multi-channel experience so much that it just isn't worth the bother.

                                      All comments are welcome.
                                      this is an interesting concept that i think Highlights one of the drawbackas in MCM.

                                      Basically, as an Audio mixer, I have a room setup to THX or Dolby standards, so keep that in the back of your head.

                                      with the exception of seeing classical music in a concert hall, almost everything we hear is mono - rock concerts are almost always mono, anything mic'd and put through a PA, etc. Films are never heard "Live" They are always in a somewhat "controlled" environment, so we accept the multiple point sources more readily. But with music, we are used to hearing the entire band from a single or Dual point source. Suddenly with MCM, this all changes. The Problematic speaker is the Center Channel. As a mixer, i love the fact that suddenly I ddon't have to cram every instrument into 2 Channels - It gives me a ton of options that I didn't have before, and allows me to create space. I also don't have to push the channnel so hard. But it's that space that can be difficult to listen to. If you take your vocals and out them straight up the middle in the C Ch, then your mix sounds incredibly disconnnected. so there's a large argumment on how to treat the C CH. Some people actually refuse to use it, others ue it very sparingly. i personlly like to use it, but tend to spread the image across the front 3 speakers. If you like R&B, go buy the Anthony Hamilton Live DVD, and you can hear what I am talking about (Yes, I mixed it).


                                      Here's something else to consider-

                                      Almost all HT's that I have seen in Homes, are setup in a such a manner that would require audio delays on indivvidual channnels in order for the audio to play in sync. This is hugely important to the audio experience, as our ears are incredibly sensitive to time. I can tell the difference in time by several subframes (1ms). you could take identical audio, play them in a L-R system, and the one that hits your ear first will sound louder. Guess what? the distance to your C Ch is often the shortest....Which means it will sound louder. Sounds familiar, no? Delay that guy into sync, and your soundstage improves a bunch.


                                      I think that's one off the largest contributing factors to why MCM mixing isn't taking off, alond with all the others presented here....it's just too difficult to setup a perfect listening environment in many cases. Compared to the iPod's convenience, well you know the score.

                                      Peace,
                                      -Todd A.

                                      Comment

                                      • Snap
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Feb 2005
                                        • 1295

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by ToddAnisman
                                        this is an interesting concept that i think Highlights one of the drawbackas in MCM.

                                        Basically, as an Audio mixer, I have a room setup to THX or Dolby standards, so keep that in the back of your head.

                                        with the exception of seeing classical music in a concert hall, almost everything we hear is mono - rock concerts are almost always mono, anything mic'd and put through a PA, etc.
                                        Almost all HT's that I have seen in Homes, are setup in a such a manner that would require audio delays on indivvidual channnels in order for the audio to play in sync. This is hugely important to the audio experience, as our ears are incredibly sensitive to time. I can tell the difference in time by several subframes (1ms). you could take identical audio, play them in a L-R system, and the one that hits your ear first will sound louder. Guess what? the distance to your C Ch is often the shortest....Which means it will sound louder. Sounds familiar, no? Delay that guy into sync, and your soundstage improves a bunch.


                                        I think that's one off the largest contributing factors to why MCM mixing isn't taking off, alond with all the others presented here....it's just too difficult to setup a perfect listening environment in many cases. Compared to the iPod's convenience, well you know the score.

                                        Peace,
                                        -Todd A.
                                        :agree:

                                        I have yet to do a install that was in stereo. Everything that I have done has been in Mono.
                                        The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

                                        Comment

                                        • ColoKurt
                                          Member
                                          • Mar 2005
                                          • 58

                                          #21
                                          I really have a more fundamental question than the one I asked above. I can't decide if it's insightful or naive. Why do you even need a center channel speaker for either MC audio or movies? If you have two good front speakers, the easiest thing in the world for them to produce is a center image. The only good reason I can come up with would be for video when your TV placement is not in the middle between your front speakers.

                                          Comment

                                          • Shane Martin
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Apr 2001
                                            • 2852

                                            #22
                                            ColoKurt,
                                            It is mainly because you don't often sit in the sweet spot. That is the purpose of a center speaker. If it was only one person and he always sat in the sweet spot ,then I could see a phantom working.

                                            Btw, I find it quite ironic that Multichannel music needs defending. That comment alone says that it is not exactly accepted by many. Other than the Dark Side of the Moon SACD Multichannel, I've yet to hear a good or even IMHO acceptable Multichannel mix.

                                            The Eagles last concert on TV was another prime example of how poor multichannel can be and is.

                                            Comment

                                            • csuzor
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Nov 2004
                                              • 413

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by ColoKurt
                                              Why do you even need a center channel speaker for either MC audio or movies? If you have two good front speakers, the easiest thing in the world for them to produce is a center image.
                                              ColokKurt, I argued exactly the same thing before I got my center channel. Now, I always watch TV in DolbyProLogicII mode, because the dialog is "centered". At low volumes in stereo, the phantom image from stereo is not well formed, and we find dialog becomes unintelligible, the natural ability we all have to augment the sound information with lipsync information is difficult. Switching to DPLII, dialog is so much easier to understand.
                                              However, I don't use DPLII cinema mode, because there is too much focus on the center channel, the L/R channels are hardly used. I prefer music mode for TV as well.

                                              Comment

                                              • ToddAnisman
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Apr 2005
                                                • 142

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Shane Martin

                                                ...Btw, I find it quite ironic that Multichannel music needs defending. That comment alone says that it is not exactly accepted by many. Other than the Dark Side of the Moon SACD Multichannel, I've yet to hear a good or even IMHO acceptable Multichannel mix.

                                                The Eagles last concert on TV was another prime example of how poor multichannel can be and is.
                                                This is something that I am curious about.... As an audiophile, why would you not enjoy A Surround Music mix? Or more apropriately, what is it you don't like? I'm asking as a mixer of MC Audio, and I don't get a ton of feedback from the consumer so much as the studios. I think there are some great 5.1 Mixes out there, although I have to admit I've heard few on DVD or SACD, simply because I usually hear them on a stage. Get something mixed by Ted Hall or Chuck Ainlay....

                                                As for the Eagles, boy let me tell you how difficult it is to mix 5.1 Live. It' not easy. I had to mix 2 5.1 Mixes for BET of Anthony Hamilton and Angie stone, and they were both just plain difficult. Audience noise, bumps, delay interaction etc. Wow. not easy. I listened to the 5.1 feed off the board and was appalled. It took me all of 1 hour to realise why it was like that. So cut 'em a bit of slack (but not too much....)

                                                Peace,

                                                -Todd A.

                                                Comment

                                                • csuzor
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                  • 413

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by ToddAnisman
                                                  This is something that I am curious about.... As an audiophile, why would you not enjoy A Surround Music mix? Or more apropriately, what is it you don't like?
                                                  Todd, it's not often I can give an opinion to an industry professional, so here's my thoughts:

                                                  Spatial accuracy is the real goal for mch, and only a small percentage of surround mix sacd seem really spatially correct

                                                  There are all types of surround mixes I have found, but what works best is vocals focused on a single channel (usually center) but just audible on other channels (usually L/R), and instruments either on L+sL or R+sR but just audible on Center.

                                                  My speakers are positioned at -80/-30/0/+30/+80deg, none behind because that sounds really artificial, except when the mix on sL/sR is a room acoustic echo reproduction, as it is in some sacd, but echo is not as enjoyable as a truely widenened soundstage (beyond L and R). I know movies usually assume the sL/sR are behind the listener, but for music that is not ideal.

                                                  There are a few recording engineers using this surround configuration (between -60/-30/0/+30/+60 and -80/-30/0/+30/+80) successfully (sometimes called Home Concert). The sbL/sbR are at -120/+120 if available.

                                                  The worse spatial effect occurs when a vocalist or instrument rapidly changes spatial positioning through the music. A piano / violin / guitar / drums / vocalist, oscillating from L to R depending on the note played, or the dynamic of the sound, or which drum is beat. Granted, some instruments are large, and they are recorded in stereo, so relative to the microphone some sounds do come from the left or the right, but with 3m or more between L/R speakers, it doesn't make sense to reproduce this left/right characteristic on the recording.

                                                  I understand that recording 5 channels simultaenously, located where speakers would be located, is difficult or impossible for most music except orchestral representations. However, even orchestral representation is often wrong: a violin sonata, with a single violin and a full orchestra, should not have the violin oscillating between L/C/R, or worse, L/R and a softer C mix. It should be firmly anchored in either L/C/R, and only a soft mix in the other channels.

                                                  Another bad mix is centered music: all the musicians seem to be playing in the same physical space (unreal). If some instruments are the left of the stage, then don't mix it equally between left and right, let our speakers be the point source of the music and the mix will occur in the home environment.

                                                  Those against surround music usually mention these spatial errors in representation as their reasons for sticking to stereo, and to a great extent they are correct.

                                                  Note that stereo representations often share some of these spatial errors (to a lesser extent of course): a 3m wide instument is not uncommon in stereo recordings!


                                                  Thanks
                                                  a converted mch addict

                                                  Comment

                                                  • NonSense
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2003
                                                    • 138

                                                    #26
                                                    A problem I have observed with multichannel, in my opinion, is the lack of new (mainstream) artists being published (so to speak) in these new formats. Initially the record companies just seemed be content with rehashing the same titles in this new format that have sold millions in the past. I see two problems with this situation (ignoring the big one that most people don't care about hi-rez and are content with their MP3's). Millions of people already have these titles, so alot of people, including audiophiles, are not willing to toss out their collections just for the new format. Maybe just a couple of their favourites, but these are generally much more expensive. The second problem. I am just speculating here, but I would expect that if a mixing engineer knew he was going to be creating a multichannel recording, he would likely adjust the master recording in preparation. Therefore, I would expect that using these archived master recordings of all these bestsellers would be problematic, as they were never meant to be multichannel. (Add the gimmicks, to help sell the format) They should probably stick with an enhanced 2CH format on these ones.

                                                    I have always thought that technology should be progressive. At some point you need to draw the line, look ahead and forget about the past. I would expect that new titles would perform much better as they have been recorded with the intent of being multichannel and with a resolution to truely make the format shine. My strategy would have been to offer the best product moving ahead, never looking back, but what do I know?

                                                    I think the window of opportunity for the existing formats may have passed. I am interested in seeing how the next generation of products will be marketed.
                                                    Bruce

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Shane Martin
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Apr 2001
                                                      • 2852

                                                      #27
                                                      As an audiophile, why would you not enjoy A Surround Music mix? Or more apropriately, what is it you don't like?
                                                      It mostly sounds hokey and instruments are misplaced or in the case of several mixes put into places that they don't need to be. The Eagles HFO disc is a good example. Personally I feel that mc music is a gimmic at the moment. Great Mixes are far and few between.

                                                      Also, I'm not one of those guys who need to have all of his speakers filled with sound.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Ovation
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • Sep 2004
                                                        • 2204

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by NonSense
                                                        I am just speculating here, but I would expect that if a mixing engineer knew he was going to be creating a multichannel recording, he would likely adjust the master recording in preparation. Therefore, I would expect that using these archived master recordings of all these bestsellers would be problematic, as they were never meant to be multichannel. (Add the gimmicks, to help sell the format) They should probably stick with an enhanced 2CH format on these ones.
                                                        If you have only 2-4 tracks to work with, I can see this as a legitimate problem. However, many of the re-issues (Elton John, Pink Floyd and Fleetwood Mac--to name but a few in my collection) were originally 24 track recordings. If the mixer has access to the originals, he is NOT extracting info that's already been mixed down, but using the raw, unmixed recordings to create a new mix.

                                                        As to the larger issues raised, I think if mixing engineers at least monitored with speakers in an ITU configuration (so we could relatively easily replicate the placement at home) and stopped putting "height" channels where they don't exist, things would be a bit smoother for all involved.

                                                        Anyway, gotta run, but I'm happy to see a real discussion of this issue.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • NonSense
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2003
                                                          • 138

                                                          #29
                                                          Ovation

                                                          I'm not sure I properly expressed my point regarding the master recording tapes from which multichannel has been extracted. I did not mean that the quality of the re-mix was any poorer. Although, in some cases, the original masters were not properly archived, and all that remains is a pre SONY-SACD digital archive (likely 16 or 18 bit)which does show audible limitations when converted to SACD and the like. (Not to get off topic, but this apparently did happen with the Roxy Music SACD remaster of Avalon, where the lubrication used on the master tape, many years previously, actually damaged the original master) Anyway, the point I was trying to express, was that if I was going to make a 2CH recording where the soundstage was primarily radiating outwardly from in front of the listener. I would approach this situation differently than if I was going to record a multichannel version. I don't think it is enough to have a single channel for each instrument so the speak, and just mix it somewhere on the soundstage. I would think you would want to have several tracks for each track that was previously used. If the player was sitting front/left, I would also want to preserve the reverberation at various points in the soundstage to create an authentic performance. I the case of a live performance. Capturing and reproducing authentic sound from a 360 deg soundsatage.

                                                          The point was that I don't believe anyone had the forsight to do this 20 years ago in anticipation of multichannel playback. Thus, it becomes a difficult to make these classics sound amazing in multichannel. Moving ahead however, should be a different story.
                                                          Bruce

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Ovation
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Sep 2004
                                                            • 2204

                                                            #30
                                                            I agree. Moving forward should yield some spectacular results. My point about the titles I listed (each of which was re-mixed from original masters, not lower res digital copies) was to illustrate what I think are excellent examples of MCH even though they were sourced from another era. In other words, if old stuff can be made to sound this good, imagine what the future holds?

                                                            Comment

                                                            • methenyfan11
                                                              Junior Member
                                                              • May 2005
                                                              • 25

                                                              #31
                                                              Just my two cents again as a Junior listener. On my old mid-fi HT system, all it took was a $90 Sony to enter the SACD world. THe mid-fi came the closest by far to sounding like hi-fi when playing SACD's. It was literally magic and not one guest I had over failed to notice it and appreciate it.

                                                              Having had mid-fi and now stepping into hi-fi, I find the difference between red book and SACD more startling with the mid-fi - which might help get ordinary listeners to listen more and get excited about the quality of sound. This would be good for all of us!

                                                              In the cover that comes with Roxy Music's Avalon SACD, you can read the mixer's notes about the process. This guy clearly enjoyed the freedom of putting all those tracks into more channels and having more res to work with. Wish we had more SACD's like Dark Side, Avalon, and Gaucho!

                                                              Cheers!

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Pieter
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Jan 2005
                                                                • 219

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by methenyfan11
                                                                Having had mid-fi and now stepping into hi-fi, I find the difference between red book and SACD more startling with the mid-fi...
                                                                Peter, no sarcasm intended, but this is 180° to some other's findings. They hold fast that the difference is more detectable, and hence appreciated on a high end system.

                                                                One cannot but savor the irony of these diametrically opposed views.

                                                                Who's right?

                                                                Both and neither.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • ToddAnisman
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Apr 2005
                                                                  • 142

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Hmmm...Lots of interesting posts here. Lot's of this stuff is very subjective, but definitely things to ake into consideration when mixing.

                                                                  Here's soemthing else you guys might find interesting...

                                                                  Often times when we are tasked to create a 5.1 Mix, we are also told that it must be stereo compatible...i.e. fold down (usually via a Dolby PL o PLII encoder) into stereo. So this is a huge problem, in that we cannot use the speakers in certain for fear of artifacts when listening in stereo... Rare are the mixes in which freedom is given. It sucks, but is the reality because of costs.

                                                                  -Todd A.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • methenyfan11
                                                                    Junior Member
                                                                    • May 2005
                                                                    • 25

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Pieter
                                                                    Peter, no sarcasm intended, but this is 180° to some other's findings. They hold fast that the difference is more detectable, and hence appreciated on a high end system.

                                                                    One cannot but savor the irony of these diametrically opposed views.

                                                                    Who's right?

                                                                    Both and neither.
                                                                    Pieter, no offense taken. Who knows who's really right, if there is such a thing! I like your approach to the contraditions in opinions. Too many people are getting stuck on being right and not listening to each other.

                                                                    Anyway, I am no 'expert'; I can only share what I've observed with my own ears in a direct A/B comparison in two rooms in my home, one with hi-fi, the other with mid-fi. Another might hear the same differnces and reach the opposite conclusion, true. My point really is that you CAN hear the difference even on mid-fi stuff and, if you already have a 5 channel set up, it doesent take a big investment to enjoy SACD. Therefore, if the stuff was marketed more aggresively, it might stand a chance of making it in the marketplace, which would benefit all of us. But, I could be totally wrong about all of this....

                                                                    Cheers!

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Pieter
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Jan 2005
                                                                      • 219

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by methenyfan11
                                                                      Who knows who's really right, if there is such a thing!!
                                                                      That's exactly it. There are no absolutes.

                                                                      There's always "better", but it's relative. Relative to what? Live unamplified sound? A "purist" approach with admirable merit, but I don't think an unamplified electric guitar is going to do it for me. The line feed from a set of recording mikes? The ears and sensibilties of either the recording or mixing engineer? Your local hi-fi dealer who's sales agenda may be questionable? You, yourself, who's not used to any better?

                                                                      That's enough pseudo philisophical rambling from me before this thread gets derailed.

                                                                      Originally posted by methenyfan11
                                                                      ...My point really is that you CAN hear the difference even on mid-fi stuff and, if you already have a 5 channel set up, it doesent take a big investment to enjoy SACD. Therefore, if the stuff was marketed more aggresively, it might stand a chance of making it in the marketplace, which would benefit all of us. But, I could be totally wrong about all of this....
                                                                      Cheers!
                                                                      Then I'd like to be wrong with you.

                                                                      More topical re multi-channel mixes: Someone once said, "If you're trying to please everbody all of the time, somebody's not going to like it!"

                                                                      Todd, I've always thought it would be great to be a recording/mixing engineer; all the equipment, great sound in a room purposely built for what it's supposed to do, meet the faces behind household names, or wish you hadn't, it goes on...

                                                                      But, I'm glad I'm not in your shoes. It must be the proverbial Bxxxch to get multi-channel done, and even harder to do properly. At the risk of sounding patronising, I have but an inkling of your dilemma.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • csuzor
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                                        • 413

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by ToddAnisman
                                                                        Often times when we are tasked to create a 5.1 Mix, we are also told that it must be stereo compatible...i.e. fold down (usually via a Dolby PL o PLII encoder) into stereo. So this is a huge problem, in that we cannot use the speakers in certain for fear of artifacts when listening in stereo... Rare are the mixes in which freedom is given. It sucks, but is the reality because of costs.
                                                                        Todd, I hope that is not a problem that will persist. Either people listen to the stereo or the mch track, but never convert the mch track into stereo!

                                                                        Or are you saying, the studio just mixes the mch track, and then converts it into stereo to record the stereo track on the disk? How much cost is saved? Does the stereo track suffer from this downconversion?

                                                                        I hope you have the freedom to use the 5 channels to your preference, because that is what we consumers judge the mixing engineers on (I have my list of engineers I trust more than others when purchasing sacd!)

                                                                        Good luck!
                                                                        Christophe

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Jack Keck
                                                                          Member
                                                                          • Jan 2005
                                                                          • 57

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by methenyfan11
                                                                          Just my two cents again as a Junior listener. On my old mid-fi HT system, all it took was a $90 Sony to enter the SACD world. THe mid-fi came the closest by far to sounding like hi-fi when playing SACD's. It was literally magic and not one guest I had over failed to notice it and appreciate it.

                                                                          Having had mid-fi and now stepping into hi-fi, I find the difference between red book and SACD more startling with the mid-fi - which might help get ordinary listeners to listen more and get excited about the quality of sound. This would be good for all of us!

                                                                          In the cover that comes with Roxy Music's Avalon SACD, you can read the mixer's notes about the process. This guy clearly enjoyed the freedom of putting all those tracks into more channels and having more res to work with. Wish we had more SACD's like Dark Side, Avalon, and Gaucho!

                                                                          Cheers!
                                                                          I imagine the my system would be considered solidly mid-fi (Pioneer VSX 709 receiver and Polk RTi speakers with a DIY sub), but I could tell a difference with my first SACD.

                                                                          BTY, mehtanyfan, I only paid $70 for my player and it plays DVD-as, too! :B OK, it was an extra $10 to ship it. ops: Gotta love those refurbs. :T

                                                                          If hi-rez only offered the increased resolution in stereo, it would still be worth it. OTOH, you gotta hear Berlioz's REquiem in multi-channel. My only mistake was in not playing it loud enough because I was conceerned about how loud it might eventually get.

                                                                          This will be rectified next time I play it.
                                                                          Jack

                                                                          "I walked in a lot of place that I never shoulda been, but I know that the Messiah, He will come again."

                                                                          Roy Buchanan

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Pieter
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Jan 2005
                                                                            • 219

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by csuzor
                                                                            ...Or are you saying, the studio just mixes the mch track, and then converts it into stereo to record the stereo track on the disk? How much cost is saved? Does the stereo track suffer from this downconversion?
                                                                            This would be disconcerting.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Ovation
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Sep 2004
                                                                              • 2204

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by ToddAnisman
                                                                              Hmmm...Lots of interesting posts here. Lot's of this stuff is very subjective, but definitely things to ake into consideration when mixing.

                                                                              Here's soemthing else you guys might find interesting...

                                                                              Often times when we are tasked to create a 5.1 Mix, we are also told that it must be stereo compatible...i.e. fold down (usually via a Dolby PL o PLII encoder) into stereo. So this is a huge problem, in that we cannot use the speakers in certain for fear of artifacts when listening in stereo... Rare are the mixes in which freedom is given. It sucks, but is the reality because of costs.

                                                                              -Todd A.
                                                                              Are you talking about DD movie soundtracks or DVD-A 5.1 mixes or SACD? In the first case, I can see the need. In the second case, I know some (few) DVD-As have only a 5.1 hi-res mix, and for those, I can also see the desire (from the record company's POV), but I hope you're not suggesting that the majority of stereo mixes for DVD-A are merely "fold downs" from the MCH mix (I never listen to them myself, but I know of some--including a few who think the stereo mixes on DVD-As are the "true" way of enjoying the music (joke would be on them, wouldn't it?)). For SACD, my understanding is the format rules require a separate, specific two channel mix, not a fold down of the MCH (I think that's why there are so many more non-MCH SACDs out there, compared to DVD-A).

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • ColoKurt
                                                                                Member
                                                                                • Mar 2005
                                                                                • 58

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Todd Anisman raised the point about the importance of speaker time alignment when playing in muti-channel mode. Is there equipment out there that does time alignment for DSD sources? I haven't seen any. Is there still a substantial benefit to multi-channel SACD without time alignment?

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Stoney
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                                                  • 232

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  I am guessing that most multi channel receivers have the capability of allowing the user to program channel delays. Mine does it by simply asking for the distance from the speaker to the listener. My wife probably hates it, but I have her sit in the sweet spot and hold the end of a tape measure to her ear while I man the other end.
                                                                                  I am assuming that it doesn't matter what you use as a source (dvd, sacd, cd, etc.) once the distances are entered in for all the speakers, the surround processor will make the necessary adjustments whenever a multi-channel output mode is used.
                                                                                  Not sure how it's done in a "separates" system. Does the pre-amp usually handle the decoding and time delays?
                                                                                  Emotiva UPA-700 Amp
                                                                                  Emotiva UMC 200 pre/pro
                                                                                  B&W DM605 S2 Mains
                                                                                  DM602 S2 Surrounds
                                                                                  DM601 S2 Rear Surrounds
                                                                                  CC6 S2 Center.
                                                                                  ASW 1000 Sub

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • ToddAnisman
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Apr 2005
                                                                                    • 142

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Ovation
                                                                                    Are you talking about DD movie soundtracks or DVD-A 5.1 mixes or SACD? In the first case, I can see the need. In the second case, I know some (few) DVD-As have only a 5.1 hi-res mix, and for those, I can also see the desire (from the record company's POV), but I hope you're not suggesting that the majority of stereo mixes for DVD-A are merely "fold downs" from the MCH mix (I never listen to them myself, but I know of some--including a few who think the stereo mixes on DVD-As are the "true" way of enjoying the music (joke would be on them, wouldn't it?)). For SACD, my understanding is the format rules require a separate, specific two channel mix, not a fold down of the MCH (I think that's why there are so many more non-MCH SACDs out there, compared to DVD-A).
                                                                                    You are correct in that this is a standard practice in Film Soundtracks. It IS less prominent in SACD/DVD-A release. However, I am seeing it as a disconcerting trend as more and more MCM mixes hit the market. I fear that we are faced wityh a double edged sword in the sense that we want more content to be available, but if there is more, the quality will then suffer. The studios simply won't absorb the cost of the Re-Mixes unless there is a profit margin in it (or least from the artist's standard record-sales).

                                                                                    The unfortunate reality is that as soon as Multi Channel Music gets commercialized, then it will turn to crap. At least that's my take on it right now. The Record industry has been hit hard by piracy over the last few years, and has refused to change it's business model to reflect. Doing so is/will cost Millions of dollars, so I don't anticipate much inthe way of "artistic" type releases....

                                                                                    Now, then again, i could be wrong. he he.
                                                                                    My .02

                                                                                    -Todd A.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • ToddAnisman
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • Apr 2005
                                                                                      • 142

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Stoney
                                                                                      I am guessing that most multi channel receivers have the capability of allowing the user to program channel delays. Mine does it by simply asking for the distance from the speaker to the listener. My wife probably hates it, but I have her sit in the sweet spot and hold the end of a tape measure to her ear while I man the other end.
                                                                                      I am assuming that it doesn't matter what you use as a source (dvd, sacd, cd, etc.) once the distances are entered in for all the speakers, the surround processor will make the necessary adjustments whenever a multi-channel output mode is used.
                                                                                      Not sure how it's done in a "separates" system. Does the pre-amp usually handle the decoding and time delays?
                                                                                      I use and recommend outboard stuff, but usually this is done in a preamp type of stage. My fav is the Ashly protea line, but DBX and BSS all make excellent gear.

                                                                                      I think people would be amazed at the difference....

                                                                                      -Todd A.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Pieter
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Jan 2005
                                                                                        • 219

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by ToddAnisman
                                                                                        The unfortunate reality is that as soon as Multi Channel Music gets commercialized, then it will turn to crap. At least that's my take on it right now.
                                                                                        Stick to your take and you'll be proven right.

                                                                                        There will always be the "boutique" labels, unwilling to compromise quality. But your source of both good sound and music will remain limited, as it is at present.

                                                                                        Anyone ever wonder why those who decry the "unnatural" use of the surround channels in a multi-channel mix are silent, as the grave, regarding the "unnatural" effect of the centre stage audience accompanying a live 2-channel mix. Think that's bad? Wait till they applaud!

                                                                                        In audio we loose perpective all too easily.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • ColoKurt
                                                                                          Member
                                                                                          • Mar 2005
                                                                                          • 58

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by Stoney
                                                                                          I am guessing that most multi channel receivers have the capability of allowing the user to program channel delays. Mine does it by simply asking for the distance from the speaker to the listener. My wife probably hates it, but I have her sit in the sweet spot and hold the end of a tape measure to her ear while I man the other end.
                                                                                          I am assuming that it doesn't matter what you use as a source (dvd, sacd, cd, etc.) once the distances are entered in for all the speakers, the surround processor will make the necessary adjustments whenever a multi-channel output mode is used.
                                                                                          Not sure how it's done in a "separates" system. Does the pre-amp usually handle the decoding and time delays?
                                                                                          Yes my B&K Ref.50 does this as well, but it makes a point of saying that it doesn't apply to SACD. I believe most processors only apply these delays to digital PCM inputs. My brand new SACD player doesn't even have a digital output and my understanding is that the DSD format is not "friendly" to digital processing. So my suspicion is that nobody playing multi-channel SACD at home is getting the benefit of time alignment, and my question is does it really matter? Also, I'm wondering how they are mixed? Are they assuming that the listener is equidistant from every speaker?

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          Related Topics

                                                                                          Collapse

                                                                                          • d52232dole
                                                                                            Can I use 802D for both Stereo Music and Movie with an Amp and Receiver?
                                                                                            by d52232dole
                                                                                            Hi,

                                                                                            I'm thinking/trying to have my 802D utilized for both Stereo Music (using Krell amp) and Movie (using Pioneer LX70). Can I connect speaker wires from those 2 Krell amp and Pioneer LX70 to same posts of 802D? Of course, I will listen/watch one (either music or movie) at a time. Say...
                                                                                            24 May 2009, 23:44 Sunday
                                                                                          • HeatMiser
                                                                                            Bass management questions: DIY subs, pro amps, HT, music
                                                                                            by HeatMiser
                                                                                            Thanks to the wealth of information on this forum, I have been introduced to the benefits of using pro sound reinforcement amps (as opposed to plate amps) to drive DIY subwoofers. This solution would seem to demand a certain level of flexibility in the receiver/processor's bass management system that...
                                                                                            16 May 2006, 13:38 Tuesday
                                                                                          • JohanK
                                                                                            2 speaker stereo vs. 3 speaker 'stereo'
                                                                                            by JohanK
                                                                                            I remember reading assertions that 3 speakers are better for stereo (?) music reproduction than 2 speakers.

                                                                                            What is the advantage of 3 speakers vs. 2? Is it proper sound outside the sweet spot? Why did 2 speakers become the standard?

                                                                                            Just curious, thanx.

                                                                                            ...
                                                                                            08 November 2000, 13:05 Wednesday
                                                                                          • audiofan
                                                                                            Is combo rsx-1056 + rb-1080 good for both HT and stereo music?
                                                                                            by audiofan
                                                                                            Hi,
                                                                                            I've just bought rb-1080. I was just wondering whether rsx-1056 is good enough for HT (as i only use the system for HT about 20%, 80% is for music). i currently have denon 3805 (plan to sell it and get rsx-1056), Axiom M60 speakers, and my listening room is 12x14. Since rsx-1056 is 75wpc,...
                                                                                            08 October 2004, 09:48 Friday
                                                                                          • dtb300
                                                                                            Receiver swap out with Processor for Music
                                                                                            by dtb300
                                                                                            Currently using a Yamaha RX-V1400 for Movie and SACD duties. I have dedicated Power Amps for Surrounds and Center, and run back through HT Passthrough on my Pre Amp for mains. I have superb two-channel audio and looking to upgrade the SACD sound in my setup.

                                                                                            In anyones opinion here,...
                                                                                            07 April 2007, 18:40 Saturday
                                                                                          • Loading...
                                                                                          • No more items.
                                                                                          Working...
                                                                                            Searching...Please wait.
                                                                                            An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                                                                                            Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                                                                            An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                                                                                            Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                                                                            An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                                                                                            There are no results that meet this criteria.
                                                                                            Search Result for "|||"