Woodworking advice...

[Steve Manning]

Practising what you preach .......

Well after suggesting to Jon that he add an Oneida Cyclone to his dust collecting setup, I did just that myself. I got the Super Dust Deputy for my birthday and added it as a pre-stage to my Delta dust collector. All I can say is, get one if you already have a single stage unit. I used the setup for the first time yesterday, planing and jointing some cypress lumber. No clogging at all, a first, and no dust in the filter bag, meaning the filter will stay clean far longer, with less mess on the floor overall. Well worth the investment even though you loose a little floor space.

I mounted both the Delta and cyclone on a new platform that's on wheels and it actually rolls around nicer than the Delta did by itself. Here's a few pic's of how it turned out .....

[Steve Manning]

Custom bevels on round surfaces ..... Pt1

Not sure of how much interest there might be in this, but I figured for those that might be making speaker stands with a round base and want to bevel the edge, this might be useful for you. I'm making a small stand for my remotes to sit next to my listening chair and needed to put a bevel on a couple of edges. The angles are non standard, so you either make them standard and buy a big router bit or come up with another way of making your non standard bevel. This is what I came up with for my table saw that I considered to have a very low finger removal potential ......

Make a fixture that will straddle your rip fence .....



The angle that the large "face" is attached at is the same as your desired bevel, which is completely up to you ....



I made circle templets initially to make my circles using my Jasper circle gig which leaves an 1/8" hole in it's center.



I ran a nail (could use a screw or whatever, the disc needs to rotate when done) through the hole into the center of the jig face, which should also be aligned with the center of your saw blade.



I then marked a line on the edge of my board to give me what I wanted left as an edge. With double stick carpet tape I attached my board to the nailed disc. You then line up your mark with the blade teeth. When your done lock down your fence and have the jig clamped in place so it does not move. Make sure your blade is not making contact with the work piece and check the rotation of the disc, you will be rotating into the blades rotation, CW if you look at it from the side.

[Steve Manning]

Custom bevels on round surfaces ..... Pt 2

Be forewarned this is going to make a mess! Turn on the saw a raise the blade until it contacts the work piece, rotate the disc, (again into the blade), raise the blade (I did one turn on the crank), spin the disc, repeat , repeat, etc., until you cut all the way through. The first one I cut I had to stop and remove my riving knife since it started rubbing the wood and stopped things from turning, so I would remove that before you start (pinching is not an issue so this not a safety issue). That stopping and resetting up gave me a fair bit of burning (also using cherry), but the second disc was much cleaner.






Some of the mess even with the dust collector running .....



After some clean up with a scraper and some sanding. The two discs are 9.5" and 12" in dia. The bevel is at 18 degrees.

[BobEllis]

Thanks for that, Steve.

[JonMarsh]

Pretty cool, Steve! Better not let GF see that, or she'll come up with something interesting for me to do with that technique!

[Steve Manning]

Recommended Finish

I thought I would pass along to those looking for an easy finish to work with. I just finished building a small table for remotes and beverages for my room and went the spray route for the first time. I used some of this finish for the first time as well. Since it's waterborne it was super easy to work with ...... cleanup was at the end of the day and consisted of running a can of hot water through the sprayer and your done, no nasty fumes or any of that mess. It has a quick drying time 45 minutes or so and your ready to sand and spray the next coat. By the end of the day you can have 5 coats of finish and your done. It also does not yellow the wood as is typical with an oil base finish.

Here's a few pictures of how it turned out .....

[JonMarsh]

I'd looked at that General Finishes product once before and wondered how it was- thanks for posting your comments.

Now, about the table- how about a few comments on the design and construction? If GF sees this, she'll want me building a few of them!

[Steve Manning]

Now, about the table- how about a few comments on the design and construction? If GF sees this, she'll want me building a few of them!

Let me scale down a few pictures and I'll get them posted.

[Steve Manning]

Table Details

Jon ....... Basic design concept for the table was to go with something just big enough to hold remotes and a drink while listening since I had removed the coffee table from in front of the listening position. I think the Seattle space needle must of been on my mind as well, since it sort of has similar lines? The table is only 21" tall, top is 12" in diameter and the bottom is 9.5", both are an inch thick. The woods I used were cherry and maple, obviously what ever floats your boat in that department.

Laminated 2 boards together for top and bottom to get required width, matching grain patterns as best a possible. Used jasper jig to cut required disc diameters for flush routing. See prior pictures for how to bevel the discs edges, pick what ever angle you want, I used ~17 degrees as I recall and left ~3/8" of an edge .......



Used dowels to hold things together .......



Center column was glued up first .....



Top and bottom were attached one at a time to insure squareness .....



That's the readers digest of things. I did a SketchUp drawing first to get proportions right visually and that gave me all the dimensions I needed while I was at it. Let me know if you have any questions and if your GF really wants some and your too busy with all those speakers projects my rates are pretty cheap

[JonMarsh]

Hey, that looks really cool! :T

Thanks for posting so much detail- it gives me ideas about how to proceed, and of course I can use my own CAD tools to model it first. OK, I just scrolled up further and saw the part about how you did the bevels... tricky, but clever!

[bostonmurf]

a little tip i found useful, if you need to drill accurate straight holes and dont have a drill press ive been using this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
works wonders for mounting speakers or spikes.

[Renron]

To help keep boards (and sawdust) from sticking to your tablesaw, give it a double coat of johnson's past wax. The one in the yellow can. Make sure the first coat is dry, buff it off and apply the second coat, buff it off when it dries too. It won't transfer to the wood and it really helps the wood slide without sticking. I use it on my Table saw blades too. BTW, the BEST blade I've ever owned is a Forrest blade, very expensive but worth it, stays sharp longer and cuts clean enough that no sanding is usually needed on that cut edge.

Couple of thoughts on finishes while I'm at it. Dewaxed shellac sticks to everything and is compatible with every type of finish. Great prep/ pre stain sealer. Really helps out with blotching woods like Alder and Cherry.
Buy a decent HVLP spray gun, can be a turbine or compressed air delivery system. Practice on scrap, not the final piece!
I use glossy finishes for all my under coats. If I want a matte or semi-gloss look, that's what goes on last. Gloss coats allow the grain to show through better and provides a deeper looking finish.
95% of the time I use water based finishes, they dry quicker (more coats) and clean up is much easier. (Don't have to worry about the water heater blowing you up either) General Finishes is my preferred WB, but Target Coatings comes in a close second.

[knowledgebass]

Here's some more, 'right tool for the job' advice. Use a centering bit to align your driver holes. I used one like this:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=40239&cat=1,180,42240,53317,42265

The resulting holes weren't deep enough (the bits I linked to are meant for pre-drilling small hinges) and I had to then drill again with a conventional bit to get a reasonable depth. However, the starter holes and subsequent overdrilling was perfectly aligned in the center of the woofer holes and no damage was done to the woofer. I didn't know these existed until I came across someone using them in a Tech Talk thread, so maybe helpful to some people here. $7 well spent for me.

[JonMarsh]

Nice tool, and thanks for the recommendation! :T

[Steve Manning]

Here's some more, 'right tool for the job' advice. Use a centering bit to align your driver holes. I used one like this:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=40239&cat=1,180,42240,53317,42265

The resulting holes weren't deep enough (the bits I linked to are meant for pre-drilling small hinges) and I had to then drill again with a conventional bit to get a reasonable depth. However, the starter holes and subsequent overdrilling was perfectly aligned in the center of the woofer holes and no damage was done to the woofer. I didn't know these existed until I came across someone using them in a Tech Talk thread, so maybe helpful to some people here. $7 well spent for me.

I've been wanting to pick up a set of these ....... I've been using a set of these in the mean time that work rather well for getting things lined up. http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piec...-set-3577.html

[JonP]

Wow, if you get that many, graded that fine, (64ths?!?) for that little... a pretty good alternative for accurate drill marking.

Knowledgebass... a neat suggestion, think I'll get some as well. FYI for everybody, I just noticed that Eagle, the company of a thousand router bits, (and more stuff) has similar ones for a buck more, price for 3 sizes the same... but it's hard to say which one is the better: http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/...s_and_hardware

And, while I'm on Eagle, they sent me a email a little while ago, they have some "buyout" Bosch bits, selling out fast, now down to only two in the collection. I got the laminate (really a short flush trim bit) and the flat end 1/2" diameter. (now sold out) Where can you get any bit for 3 for $10? http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/...m_medium=email Don't wait if interested, there were 4 types available about 6-7 days ago...

[Steve Manning]

Sealing MDF

For those of us that are still using mdf and still putting up with how to seal it before finishing ....... I ran across this today and figured I'd pass it along. http://www.rustoleum.com/product-cat...surface-sealer I have not tried it yet myself but from what I've found, it seems to do a very good job at sealing mdf as well as drywall issues.

[knowledgebass]

Here's my wet sanding how-to/experience from my Ansonica build. Remember if you sanding or scraping you're probably making dust. Doing this stuff by hand in some ways is cleaner than using the powered equivalents, but you should still wear a mask to protect your lungs (and something on your eyes isn't a bad idea either!).

How do you get a professional result if you don't have professional tools? Well, my Ansonica finish was all hand applied. Spray equipment and sanding gear would have definitely moved things a long quicker but I'm extremely pleased with what I accomplished here. I've done a few wood working projects, all but the Ansonica are non-speaker related, and some still don't have finish on them, but this is likely my best finishing work yet. I'm a hobbiest and incrementally my wood working (and knowledge) improves with each piece I complete. I have to say that wet sanding was a quantum advance in my finishing process. Pieces I've done without wet sanding still look good at a few feet, but compared to this finish, it's just obvious the wet sanding has resulted in a closer to perfect result. I think I'll use this technique on all of my wood working projects now.

The photos I'm posting are from the doors used to seal up the backs of my speakers. I just happened to get photos of the doors at each stage. I started with veneering the baltic birch plywood. It's bad enough that the backs will rarely be seen once the speakers are in place, but the inside doors will definitely never be seen but it was also my first time veneering so it was good practice. My doors are unsupported so I had to veneer both sides (more practice). In a box, corners support the flat pieces so it can't curl and so you don't need to veneer the inside of a box. I treated both sides of each door the same for practice, and to prevent the doors from curving.

I won't cover how to do it here, but you've followed one of the zillion guides for veneering, or you've got some nice figure on your plywood, now you need to make that veneer pop. So you've selected your preferred finish (General Finishes water base poly in my case) and you get right to applying it. Well, if you have an open grain wood like my veneer then you can count on applying approximately 100 coats to get a smooth finish (common examples would be oak for open, maple for closed grain). Or, you can use a grain filler, something that is meant to level the wood surface. There are many products sold for this purpose, but I used an epoxy meant for surface finishing. Epoxy is pretty difficult to sand. I went through scraping the surface with cabinet scrapers, and then sanding, using something like 20 sheets of 180 grit. Wet sanding should work well here as well and probably use less paper if you can find it with an appropriate grit. What I didn't want was a super thick finish making my wood look like plastic.

So here's the veneer before filling (the one picture not of the doors). If you look toward the bottom of the photo near the centre there's a rough looking patch that is the open grain of the wood.



And after epoxy, nice and shiny but not at all smooth.



So I did the primary prep work with a scraper to knock down the high spots. The cabinet scraper would just kind of peel thin layers of epoxy off.



A closeup of the 'curls.' You can see the 'white' areas are the high points that have been knocked back.



Next up is 180 sand paper on the epoxy, and as soon as I had something resembling flat I switched to 240. Wet sanding here probably wouldn't be a bad idea. I went through a lot of paper. The epoxy really builds on standard paper quickly.



A this point you're ready to start your finishing schedule. I now wish I had done another coat of epoxy. There were a couple high spots I sanded through and I'm likely the only one that would find them now but it would have probably resulted in a better finish.
First up on my schedule was shellac. Honestly. A few coats of this is a perfectly fine finish. And a lot of my next steps are getting back to something that looks like this after putting on some poly. Shellac is just not as durable on its own.



And then it was onto the many coats of poly. I applied the shellac and poly with a cotton rag (old t-shirt). I fold it up into a pad and apply in the direction of the grain. Here I have 6 or 7 coats. Sanding between coats, at 320, last one was 400 I think. The pad puts it on a lot thinner than the brush would. And head on it doesn't look bad like this but you can tell there's a finish on there as it has it's own weight/thickness. I took these photos at an angle where I though the imperfections (mostly streaks) were visible, if only slightly. Otherwise, pretty shiny and even like you want.





OK. So here we are with the wet sand cut. So what I do is cut my strips to the size of my block (1/4 sheet) and soak them in a plastic container for ~10 minutes. We have hard water so I used some from our reverse osmosis so I wouldn't have to deal with streaking from the hard water too. I wipe the piece down with the a wet rag and clean water. To sand, I bought myself a sanding block and honestly, maybe I should have started with this part, but I used the Preppin' Weapon. No affiliation here, and that link is to the manufacturers web site, but they seem to be available at all our favourite wood working stores. And that thing is awesome. So anyway, wet the piece, take your wet sand paper, and using straight, long strokes sand. Be careful along the edges because wet sanding cuts really fast for what you think it should. Wipe off with a different rag to check your progress. Put your clean water on again and repeat. You also need to rinse your paper frequently to remove the buildup there frequently. And change the paper for some fresh, pre soaked paper as soon as it starts corning.



So you can see there's still some streaking, but that's about where I left it. It's actually quite flat at this point. The next step could be finer sanding with some micro mesh or equivalent paper. I had some FFFF (4F) pumice so that's what I used. So I just flood the piece with some water on a rag and then generously sprinkle some pumice on.



Working with the direction of the grain, pull the pumice off. It will go kind of pasty and you kind of want to work it evenly over the entire surface. I used a piece of felt folded.



Wipe it all off with a rag to check your progress.



And here we have the result before wax. You could go finer with Rottenstone, or some event finer micromesh/paper.



And it looks like I didn't get a photo of the waxed door so here's the side of my speakers. The one on the left is unwaxed, the right is waxed. =)



And one more to get the satiny richness. The white wash on the speaker is the tile floor in my basement.



From what I understand you can do this with about any finish. You want to make sure your finish is well cured before doing this. I had let my poly cure at least one week. Depending on the finish you might need to use something other than water for the lubricant, but water is about as easy as it gets to clean up.

[Renron]

Bob,
Here is a good explanation for the different types of blades available. Some of this I just learned.
BTW, this was NOT meant for you, it was meant for anyone who wants to know whats available in blades and how to chose the best one(s) for their applications.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/essential-tablesaw-blades

Ron

[ergo]

A very interesting 'intelligent router base'

https://shapertools.com/#Howitworks

[Carl V]

A very interesting 'intelligent router base'



https://shapertools.com/#Howitworks

Indeed...thanks

[Steve Manning]

A very interesting 'intelligent router base'
https://shapertools.com/#Howitworks

That's a slick little system Ergo ...... I ran across a video on that last week. It could be rather handy for speaker work. Then I got an email today, it appears Powermatic is also getting into cnc.

[ergo]

That Powermatic CNC looks good. Though without any real display that shows your toolpaths in NC code it does need one to work out a very controlled process. In that sense having a PC with control software is still good for hobby use as one sees what gets loaded to the machine etc.

All these technologies are getting more attainable all the time. The waveguide thread pointed me too check out the Fusion 360 CAD/CAM. It does have some very unique features and especially the fact that it is a single bundle of CAD/CAM. I will be trying out to use that to generate the machine code for my CNC in coming weeks.

6 years back when I bought the machine the good CAM softwares cost me some 1500EUR. Now one can do that + more with 'free for hobby' tools like the Fusion 360.

[JonMarsh]

The most interesting thing about all these tool and software developments is how it allows dedicated "hobbyists" to use techniques and tools which only a few years back were only available to companies; in many cases, to large companies.

Steve sent me the info on the smart router; it's very interesting looking, but at the moment I'm not in the market for spending $1500 to pre-order a smart router. Still, it's fascinating...

[Steve Manning]

That Powermatic CNC looks good. Though without any real display that shows your toolpaths in NC code it does need one to work out a very controlled process. In that sense having a PC with control software is still good for hobby use as one sees what gets loaded to the machine etc.

All these technologies are getting more attainable all the time. The waveguide thread pointed me too check out the Fusion 360 CAD/CAM. It does have some very unique features and especially the fact that it is a single bundle of CAD/CAM. I will be trying out to use that to generate the machine code for my CNC in coming weeks.

6 years back when I bought the machine the good CAM softwares cost me some 1500EUR. Now one can do that + more with 'free for hobby' tools like the Fusion 360.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26372[/ATTACH]

I know exactly what your talking about Ergo as far as the controlled process goes ..... I ran a 6 axis electron beam welder for ~ 6 years and to say the technology was a bit behind the times is an understatement. I had to code the "tool" path by hand, so any geometry that on the complicated side could take a while to get the G-Code all written. Then came the dry runs and debugging before you closed up the vacuum chamber that the parts sat in for the actual weld. Once you lit the thing off you also could not really look at was going on either ..... poking metal with a 50 KeV electron beam tends to get rather brite as well as hot, 2468 C was the melting point for niobium.

I'm interested to see how your coding turns out with Fusion ..... the more I use it the more I'm liking it, but at this point I don't have a cnc to test it out on.

[Steve Manning]

A little additional info on the Shaper Origin ...... I sent an email off to the company and got a response, figured I'd share.

Hey Steve,
Thanks for the kind words!

To answer your questions:
- The Z axis has a total travel of 1.75 inches. Do note that the bit's depth of cut is a limiting factor.
- 3D milling functionality is something we may pursue, but is not currently in the works. We are focusing primarily on the core functionality of Origin at the moment, so I don't want make any promises on timing for 3D milling, as it is not currently a priority.
- Origin supports most 1/4 inch shank router bits or end mills.

Let me know if I can answer any other questions!

Best,
Noah @ Shaper

[Renron]

My son sent me that link, interesting but out of my budget. (wish I had a budget, even a small one would be nice)
It is amazing how fast technology is advancing to the hobby level
Ron

[Steve Manning]

My son sent me that link, interesting but out of my budget. (wish I had a budget, even a small one would be nice)
It is amazing how fast technology is advancing to the hobby level
Ron

I know what you mean about budget Ron ...... a CNC router has been taunting me for a while now.

[Renron]

Steve, Yep, me too. and a 3d printer

[rj45]

Actually looking for advice and methods. I've noticed many diy designs resembling the avalon Isis and was wondering what the best method is to make those angled cuts on the sides of the front baffle? Any advice will be well received. thanks!

Dudes - Experts - Lurkers ---

I's also very interested in this aspect of making baffles.
I recently cut one and it was not quite as perfect as it should have been.
Most sites I've found on the Internet for making compound angel cuts do not apply to building speakers.

Any good examples, folks?

[BobEllis]

Jon's original Ardent thread has some pictures of his jig. He used a large compound miter saw on his Isiris project IIRC. I have some jig in action pictures in my build thread as well. You can even use a handsaw, just mark the taper on top and sides. At least with my all bamboo baffle I found a power plane cutting 1/32" or less to work quite well. Not sure how it would work on BB ply, but if the knives are sharp and you take a fine cut I'd think it would work.

Why did I have a taper jig and use a power plane? Because one of my cabinets had a slight taper and my baffles were cut slightly overwide. The net result once I'd trimmed the baffle flush to the cabinet was a grossly undersized facet much shorter than the one on the other side. At that point my cabinet outweighed my table saw and there was no way to use the jig to fix it. I marked the facet edges I wanted, which was a cut almost 3/8" deep. The plane knocked it out in far less time than I spent setting up the taper jig for a cut. Next time I'm going to the plane from the start.

[TEK]

Are you referring to angled baffels as on the Ardents?
There has been used many metods, table saw, belt sander, electrical planers, circular saw with guide as well as regular hand saw (preferrable japanese saw to get a accurate cut)

[Steve Manning]

Router with a surfacing bit is another option.

[rj45]

Thanks, Bob, Tek and Steve - I see now that power planers are very reasonably priced, and a much better alternative
to a table saw and large jig. For safety, I'll trade a large spinning blade (table saw) with a small spinning blade (planer)
any day. Another bonus for the planer is that it only removes a little stock with each pass - so it's harder to screw up
that precious baffle.

[TEK]

A power planer is very efficient. I used it when I made this yesterday:

I have also used it to make Ardent baffels (I think I used it for my subs).
Just draw the lines on the sides so that you get guidelines that tells you how far down to plane and get to it!
Looking forward to see the result :-)

[Renron]

Are you referring to angled baffels as on the Ardents?
circular saw with guide

Pussies,
Circular saw by hand!. Just kidding guys, all the above methods are good ideas. Hell, I think I used them all except the router.
Circular saw by hand / Japanese pull saw / Power planer / Belt sander / Flat block hand sanding / then double / triple checked for flatness in multiple directions. My first cut was high centered by ~ 1/16" Flattened with PP then hand flat blocked. It HAS to be prefect or it will show.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Pussies,
Circular saw by hand!. Just kidding guys, all the above methods are good ideas. Hell, I think I used them all except the router.
Circular saw by hand / Japanese pull saw / Power planer / Belt sander / Flat block hand sanding / then double / triple checked for flatness in multiple directions. My first cut was high centered by ~ 1/16" Flattened with PP then hand flat blocked. It HAS to be prefect or it will show.
Ron

I figured you being a real man Ron you would be using a chain saw.:B

[Renron]

True story,
I was working on a multi million dollar home in Incline Village, Nevada 35 years ago, 4 stories with a golden elevator. No joke.
The kitchen cabinets were solid cherry custom made and installed. The owner decided he wanted two ovens instead of one, so out came the "finish chain saw" and we made room for the second oven. It was both tragic and satisfying at the same time. I wish I had a camera back then. Opulent doesn't even begin to describe this home. This home is where the saying; "Is perfect good enough?", "Only if you can't do better" came from. True story.
Ron

We now return you to your wreggurrarry scheduled program.

[Steve Manning]

True story,
I was working on a multi million dollar home in Incline Village, Nevada 35 years ago, 4 stories with a golden elevator. No joke.
The kitchen cabinets were solid cherry custom made and installed. The owner decided he wanted two ovens instead of one, so out came the "finish chain saw" and we made room for the second oven. It was both tragic and satisfying at the same time. I wish I had a camera back then. Opulent doesn't even begin to describe this home. This home is where the saying; "Is perfect good enough?", "Only if you can't do better" came from. True story.
Ron

We now return you to your wreggurrarry scheduled program.

Thanks for sharing Ron .... that is way cool.

[Wayman]

Hi,

I would like to refinish some smaller 2-way cabinets. I think they have walnut veneer.

Is there a "best" method to strip the existing finish off of the veneer?

Thanks, Wayne

[TEK]

If you want to strip the finish you have to be careful not to strip the veneer as well.
Do you know what the existing finish is?

[Wayman]

TEK,

I have no idea about the existing finish. They are an older pair of Totem cabs given to me. Quite well made tho.

Cheers, Wayne

[TEK]

I think I would have tried to sand them down. The problem will be that it probably will be very easy to sand through the veneer.
What do you want to accomplish by refinish them? What kind of improvement are you looking for?
Can you, or do you want to, reveneer them as well?

[Wayman]

The finish is not in very good condition but there are blemishes in the veneer as well.

Probably end up re-veneering them. It would be good practice.

Cheers, Wayne

[TEK]

Then it's easy :-)
You could just sand or scrape it down. It might however be worth trying to use heat to loosen the veneer and get the whole veneer of that way.