Assembly advice and assistance!

[Villainstone]

Hey guys I am starting my first build tomorrow, I am going and buying the board tomorrow from HD or Lowes. I have a board, cut diagram for a 4'x8' sheet of 3/4" MDF. Since I already have the cuts laid out with 1/4 margin for error that can be sanded off at the end. The actually cutting will be easy and pretty straight forward as long as I stick to my cut layout.

I would like to hear a few suggestions and things I should keep in mind for this build. I never worked with wood glue before, but I was gonna buy "Gorilla Wood Glue". A thought that ran through my head about the double baffle was the use a paint brush to apply the glue, and then clamp then pieces together...does that sound OK? I have a small nail gun so if it is ok I was thinking about nailing and gluing the edges and then clamping them till the glue dries. Basically I would like to hear a few tricks of the trade that could help make this first time build go as smooth as possible.

Just in case it helps here are my tools:
Small Table saw
Chop/Miter saw
Jig saw
Circular saw
"Mouse" sander
Belt sander
18v Cordless drill/ Bits
Small Nial gun
Air compressor
I guess just your basic woodworking tools. Thanks a lot guys and have a good night.

[Dave Bullet]

When cutting the 4' x 8' sheet, set your fence / guide / whatever as few times as possible. I find it better to layout the cut pieces to minimise the number of tooling changes, rather than minimise wastage.

Build one speaker THEN the other. That way any minor mistakes you can fix on the next speaker.

Double thick baffle is a good idea (1.5") - however you may need to scallop out the inside edge of the woofer cutout - especially if your woofer has a large magnet, otherwise airflow will be impeded and affect response and cause more midrange reflection back through the cone.

Using a paintbrush to spread PVA is fine, but you can also use a spatula or other spreader.

David.

[Villainstone]

Cool! TY Dave I can understand why 1 speaker at a time should be built. What do you mean by "scallop out"? Are you saying that I should make the hole on the inner baffle board bigger that the front baffle board? I was thinking that too so that I had good clearance with the sub woofer.

So are there any other tips people could give a builder eager to learn? I'm sure there are more tips that I could learn from you guys before I undergo my final steps.

[stangbat]

I'm in the middle of a build right now, so I can't look back on the entire process and give advice. But so far the thing that has taken the most amount of time is the baffles. This is my first project with a router, so that is probably why it took so long.

I had to set up the router with the jig, and I practiced all my roundovers and cuts before hand. The first baffle took a while because I wanted to make darn sure I didn't botch something up. The second went much quicker. If you have experience with routing, you may not find the baffles as time consuming. But there is a lot of little detail work on them that is necessary. And since they don't get covered with veneer and mistakes are very visible, I had to spend the time to do it right.

[Curt C]

Hey guys I am starting my first build tomorrow,

I'm going to recommend good old Titebond II glue for the assembly. Gorilla glue is fine, but it expands as it dries. It's great for filling in those little imperfections in the cuts, -but is a PITA to remove the excess, and 'forget it' if you get any on your clothes.

Nailing the sections together while the glue dries is fine, but really isn't necessary for a good structural bond. What is necessary is approximately 207 bar clamps to hold the joints securely while it dries. -Well, maybe only 206...

OK, seriously, you need a lot of bar clamps, like maybe a dozen for starters... -You can buy them fairly inexpensively at the lumber yards or harbor freight, but the better ones will last longer...

Looking at your tool list, I'd also suggest you add a plunge router for doing the baffles. The jigsaw will cut the holes, but you have no way to flush mount the driver baffles. Once you have a router, you will wonder how you got along without it before. Not only are they indispensable for driver cutouts, but also if you cut the baffles slightly oversized, you can go back and flush trim them for perfectly butted edges. A rounderover bit on the baffle edges ameliorates diffraction effects, etc. You will need a Jasper Jig or equivalent to cut those perfectly round circles...

C

[---k---]

And, if you get a router, buy a flush trim bit to trim the edges rather than sanding. Much better.

[servicetech]

An air nailer is your best friend when assembling cabinets, goes through MDF easiliy. Great for holding them together while the glue sets. Nail holes are easy to cover up.

[Paul W]

When making 1.5" panels, I drill several small holes for drywall screws in one of the panels, then apply wood glue (not Gorilla) to both panels with a brush, clamp and then run 1.25" drywall screws to tie the panels together. The panels tend to slip and can "walk" without the temporary screws. The wet sides also tend to expand and bow apart if not firmly clamped and/or screwed.

[Dryseals]

Get a plunge router, a straight bit and a flush trim bit. You can get the bits at any big box store. If this is your first build and money is no object then buy a good router. If money is an object then hit the local pawn shops. I did find Wally world had these on sale a few months back for $35 each. They had two left so I bought them both. I have several high dollar and cheap routers, I don't like to change bits.
If you notice the truncated base on the router, you can use that to square up your cuts from the tables saw with an edge guide and the straight bit. You can clamp a guide down to your board and run the router base against the guide to make a good square cut.
The flush trim bit is used to remove any overhang from assembling the box.

[Gir]

For wood glue you'll probably want to get regular Elmer's Wood glue. It's been tested to be one of the bests time and time again. Gorilla glue is a polyurethane that will bond to many things and will expand to fill gaps, but isn't nearly as strong as Elmer's glue is on wood. Hope this helps.

Tyler

[awm]

I think that most of the key tips are in this thread and here's my summary with a new one and a couple of comments. Like most of the posters, I learned these all first hand...
1. Use wood glue -- i.e. Titebond (i like Titebond III for slower setup times) -- NOT gorilla glue. Gorilla glue is actually weaker and more of a PIA in many respects.

2. Once glued and clamped, use a moist sponge, rag, etc. to get rid of the excess clue ASAP. Don't let it sit and plan on sanding it all down perfectly.

2. Get a Plunge router and a circle cutting Jasper Jig 200, with a straight bit -- I like upcut spiral straights for routing circles, but I'm sure everyone has their preference -- and a flush trim bit. The Jasper jig is measured to be used with a 1/4" bit, which I do use to keep things clear and not make a simple adding error in the midst of many circles. Where possible, though, use a 1/2" diameter bit for greater strength and stability. I'd recommend that diameter for the flush trim, for instance, and roundovers, scallops, etc.

here is a link to a good router on a very good sale:

http://www.amazon.com/Freud-FT2200EP-Variable-Plunge-Router/dp/B000AYTA2K?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1206102032&sr=8-1

3. Get a RESPIRATOR, not a simple dust mask. Seriously -- you'll need it with that much mdf dust from the routing and sanding. I'd do this even if working outside.

4. The tip about moving the fence as little as possible is key, but more so per speaker, meaning if your cut diagram can't accommodate all cuts for, say the baffles and rears for both speakers, then make sure you get the key matching cuts for ONE speaker all without moving the fence and MARK these pieces as I versus II, etc. I hope this is clear.

5. Lastly, you can almost never have too many CLAMPS. The post above about the clamps is dead on. You'll need a LOT, and I'd say even more than a dozen, though that's a good place to start.

Good luck.

[megamuel]

Something that I did that I found quite usefull was to make a list of all the dimensions that need cutting and circle and match up all the dimensions that are the same so that you can cut them all in one go with the rip fence kept in the same place. For example, if your sides are the same width as the tops and bottoms, set the rip fence to the correct width and run them all off at once. Also, double check that your rip fence and saw blade are parralel on your table saw. "Of course they are" you say, much to my anger, both my rip fence and saw blade were not straight on the table, my rip fence could be adjusted but everytime I tightened it, it went out again! Very annoying but I knocked up a simple jig that solved it. If you have this problem let me know and I'll show you what I did. I also vote for titebond II, my cabs are inch thich MDF and very heavy but hold together very well with tbII. Oh and the old chesnut, measure twice cut once, don't get excited like I did and cut lots of holes, only to realise I'd measured up wrong, which meant I had to order a whole new 4ftx8ft sheet of 1 inch MDF! Have fun,

Sam.

[Villainstone]

GReat tips fellas thanks a lot seriously. I must admit that right now I don't havve the extra cash for a router or bits. Also I am a bit intimidated about using a table saw, I mean what blade should I use, and how to I cut a 4x8' sheet? This say is about 20"x26" so the MDF is way to big to just slap on there and cut. I was planning on making most of my cuts with my trusty ol jig saw. I am sooo excited guys sooo excited.

My neighbors are gonna hate me next week.

[---k---]

google "sawboard"

Also, think about having HD or Lowes cut the 4x8 sheets down to a reasonable sizes. Then make the final cuts on your own table saw.

Jig saw is fine. You just won't be able to flush mount the driver. Not a big deal with subs.

Have Fun!

[Dryseals]

AWM, thanks for the link, I have an FT2000E been using for years. To bad the Jasper Jig doesn't fit it right. I was looking to add another decent router to the collection. Looks like I'll just have to buy it. :T

[megamuel]

I don't know about blades but I just used the standard general purpose one on mine and its fine, as long as the rip fence is set right. Cutting a 4x8 sheet on your own with a table saw has gotta be near to impossible surely? As Ryan said, ask your supplier to cut it up for you, I had mine cut into 4 2x4 sheets. Gives you a reasonable size to work with but lots of wastage. You could cut bits off with a jigsaw and then move onto your table saw but your gonna end up with some uneven edges. I'm still excited too and half way through my build now! Have fun,

Sam.

[awm]

Dryseals

Hi Dryseals -- I'm hoping that this model fits the Jasper Jig but do not know for sure. i saw the bargain on another site and assumed that it would, but now that you mention the incompatibility with the older Freud model, I'm not sure. You might want to google the Jasper and router compatibility first... Thanks and sorry for any confusion. The router is still a good deal, but it might be moot if it doesn't mate well with the Jasper...

Andy

[David_D]

Like the other gentlemen, I would recommend having your big box take a cut on the 4x8. HD will give you 2 cuts for free. I would have a marker on hand to mark the mill edges.
I have also found that a plunge router has been indispensable. Try to balance your budget with one that has the best & predictable stop adjustment.

[Ray Collins]

Heed David_D's advise regarding the router--it is necessary. You can purchase a used deWalt 621 on ebay for $85 +-. Great entry level router and if you only have one this should suffice(IMHO). Try Pat Warner's site at http://www.patwarner.com/--very knowledgeable and has several items to make routering safer and easier.

MDF is cheap so treat mistakes as part of the learning process and remember...self taught/experience as the teacher... means you take the test first and get the lesson afterwards.
Have Fun!

Ray

[Dave Bullet]

I didn't realise you were building a sub(?) - if so - ignore my comment about scalloping out the inside of the baffle. By scallop, I meant roundover the very inside edge between your T-nut / screw holes so that the woofer breathes easier. Not a problem for drivers 10" or larger on a thicker baffle.

for a sub - don't worry about flush mounting. You won't get baffle diffraction issues at sub-bass frequencies.

Get a plunge router. Honestly - they come in more handy than you think. Heck - I even use mine as a thicknesser.

I built my first subwoofer with just a jigsaw and flush mounted the driver - using an appropriately thick piece of MDF (same as the flange) to glue / sandwhich onto the baffle.

PS: Use hurricane or t-nuts to fix the driver to the baffle. And don't hammer the nuts in - instead use a g-clamp and press them in.

David.

[BobEllis]

Suggestion: drill the hole for the T / hurricane nuts a little big and use some epoxy to fill the gap being careful not to get any in the threads. That will keep them from spinning/backing out.

Another option if your nuts have a little hole in the flange is to pop an appropriate brad in there to hold them in place.

The hard work option that I prefer is glue a piece of real wood into a mortise and use a threaded insert. Real wood is less likely to let go of an insert.

I don't bother with any of this for 8" or smaller drivers - I just screw directly into the baffle.

Two final thoughts - Enjoy your build, it won't be your last.

Don't let the fear of making a mistake keep you from trying. Learn from your goofs and move on. Nobody is going to die if your speaker project isn't perfect, so no sweat.

[Paul W]

Tip for HD cuts on their vertical saws:

Take a C-clamp to the saw and position it on the horizontal bar so the back of the C-clamp determines the cut dimension. Measure against the blade as not all of the built-in rulers are positioned accurately. (The HD guys will let you position it yourself...make sure it is extremely tight so it won't slip or turn.) Make all cuts of the same dimension at the same time so that you've determined accuracy and repeatability. It helps to explain what you're doing and why accuracy is important...get him mentally involved so he doesn't bang the clamp loose when he slides the sheet against it.

Their policy is to provide 2 free cuts, but I've been charged for extra cuts less than 10% of the time.

[Villainstone]

Well to day I got the four side cut but made a mistake already. It is actually nothing big but I did have to do redo all the math. In my cut diagram I have the front and back dimension shown as 1'4", today while cutting after being bothered like 15 times by my girl I measure the front and back as 14". I ended up with a box that is 2" narrower than planned. After all the math I only had to change the port length and that was it. I plan to get tho top and bottom cut tomorrow, then I will sand all the edges flush with a belt sander. To be honest I am very impressed with my ability to cut a straight line with the Jig saw, I added in a 1/4" margin of error incase it wasn't straight enough.

Thanks a lot for all the tips guys, that combined wth the experience that I am gaining I will have a great second build.

[servicetech]

Good job getting clean cuts with a jigsaw, it's tough to do. I did my first build with one and bought a circular saw at a pawnshop shortly thereafter. Well worth the money.

Tell us more about your project, what are you building? Do you have a digital camera so we can see the build as it comes along?

In regards to the little kids, I have a 19 month old. I know the challenges kids present I dunno how old your daughter is but my son is at the age where he loves getting into stuff. Double/Triple rules for shop safety !!

[Bent]

I recall screwing up a measurement once too,
I had to cut six lengths of 2/0 extra-flex poly coated copper for temporary protective grounds (ground chains for my occupation), they aere to be cut at 14'... I cut them @ 140 inches...

That was a couple hundred dollar mistake - but we made some nice booster cables.

[JonP]

Something that I did that I found quite usefull was to make a list of all the dimensions that need cutting and circle and match up all the dimensions that are the same so that you can cut them all in one go with the rip fence kept in the same place. For example, if your sides are the same width as the tops and bottoms, set the rip fence to the correct width and run them all off at once. Also, double check that your rip fence and saw blade are parralel on your table saw. "Of course they are" you say, much to my anger, both my rip fence and saw blade were not straight on the table, my rip fence could be adjusted but everytime I tightened it, it went out again! Very annoying but I knocked up a simple jig that solved it. If you have this problem let me know and I'll show you what I did. I also vote for titebond II, my cabs are inch thich MDF and very heavy but hold together very well with tbII. Oh and the old chesnut, measure twice cut once, don't get excited like I did and cut lots of holes, only to realise I'd measured up wrong, which meant I had to order a whole new 4ftx8ft sheet of 1 inch MDF! Have fun,

Sam.

Lots of good info you're getting, and Sam sums up a lot of it. All I'd add that I'd add is a second vote on spending some cut planning ahead of time.
Map it all out, from fitting pieces on the sheet, order of cuts, etc.

Coming up with the way to make the most cuts of the same size at the same time, with the same single saw setting, helps hugely for accurate boxes as well as not ending up "cutting your self into a corner", so to speak... (ask me how I know) Also try to find a way to make all the next cuts from the last edge, so you don't have to add in for blade thickness, or cut something short because you didn't factor it in.

Another thing I'll pass along, a GREAT tip from Sandor (unpronouncable Hungarian name) who writes in "Woodworking Journal". He's got a great book called "Woodworking Mistakes", where I got this. Tip: Use a slight pinch of salt here and there on a glue joint. Just a few grains cause traction while clamping down, and prevents the slipping of the lubricated joint. Might not even need your nail gun! The coarser stuff like Kosher salt works better, but table salt will do. Doesn't seem to affect standard woodglue negatively, if you keep it light.

Overall, have fun, don't worry too much, and treat mistakes like the learning experiences they are... :B

[Xander]

The circular saw usually works better for the first couple cuts to get the pieces down to reasonable size for the table saw. Just prop the sheet up on 2x4s and rip it down with the help of an edge guide. unless you're feeling lucky and just want to use a chalk line. I did a whole subwoofer box that way once. it was just for my car though, looks didn't matter a whole lot with carpet going over it.

if you use t-nuts and machine screws to mount the sub, there are a couple things to make it work out better for you. see, the teeth sometimes don't bit into mdf too well. I tap them in with a mallet, mount the woofer to get the t-nuts in place better, then pound the in the rest of the way with the mallet, then put some epoxy on them (careful not to get it in the threads) to hold them to the mdf. I do this all before I glue the baffle to the box...

You can also glue pieces of plywood where they go so they bite into that instead of the mdf. Or some people prefer hurricane nuts to t-nuts.

sorry if that was confusing at all. good luck with the build.

[megamuel]

Also try to find a way to make all the next cuts from the last edge

Good tip, forgot to mention that... Don't mark out all your cuts and try and cut along them, you don't even need to mark them on your mdf, as long as the rip fence is set to the width you need.

Tip: Use a slight pinch of salt here and there on a glue joint. Just a few grains cause traction while clamping down, and prevents the slipping of the lubricated joint.

I've never tried this but I always rough up the surfaces that are going to be bonded with a knife, don't know if this helps but I'm sure I read is somewhere, does anyone else do this?

[Villainstone]

I can get pictures for you all to follow along, give me a day or two. As of right not I have matching boards clamped and ready for sanding, but I wish I had a plainer instead. My cuts came out good but not perfectly straight, that is why I have to sand all the edges. What I did was try and make each board have at least on manufactured edge. Meaning that each piece has a straight 90 degree corner. This made it easy to align them for sanding, and makes it so I only have to sand two edges three at the most.

Last night when I made the cutting mistake I was a bit discouraged, but after finishing the rest of my cut and seeing it all mocked up I feel a lot better about the whole thing. So as of right now I have all sides,top, and bottom cut ready for sanding. I still need to cut my braces and all the wholes but I want to take my time with this project.

To fill you all in on what I am doing here... I am building a ~5600 cubic inch box with all displacement accounted for. I am building with 3/4 inch MDF obviously but I seem to have enough MDF to double up the back, top, and bottom if I wanted to. I am installing the Dayton RS315, and the Dayton 240w plate amp tuned to about 22hz. This is gonna be used for music and HT so I wanted the tune to be a bit higher than just HT. I was thinking of using Rhino truck bed lining for the outside enclosure, so that my son doesn't destroy my work before it's time lol. He loves to beat things like he is playing drumbs, so I have to use something that will hold up. I was gonna use some black paper backed veneer, but I can just see his toy shovel digging into the soft veneer. At 19 month old he doesn't like to listen, and he thinks it's fun to see what he can get into lol.

Stay tuned for pictures tomorrow guys, you are making me feel good about this build.

[servicetech]

What is the b-day for your 19 month old?
Mine was born 8/2/06.

[Villainstone]

My little man was born 6-14-06 his B-day is 2 weeks before mine. I'm off to go sanding now, and take some pictures.

[servicetech]

So he is 21 mo old, don't they just grow up fast?

[Villainstone]

Hey there fellas I was wondering... do the sides have to be perfectly flat, and flush together? I am aware that any gap will show, but I mean will it affect the integrity of the box. I don't want it to fall apart while pounding out you know. Cutting with a jigsaw and plaining the edges with a belt sander is obviously not gonna produce perfect edges. I got it very close to perfect I think but I still would like to know.

I still have two more side to sand and then that is done. At that point I need to start work on the braces and cutting hole for the plate amp and driver. I also need to pick up the port tube, and I would like to know if cardboard tube is acceptable? I am gonna get back to work for right now, and the next time I post I promise pictures .

[Villainstone]

So he is 21 mo old, don't they just grow up fast?

Duh I should have thought about that he is 21 months lol. The last time anyone asked he was 19 months so I just remember the number I said then. I cannot believe how fast they grow up, but I enjoy watching him grow. I'm not in a hurry but I look forward to he days that we can go out and do things together. Riding ATV's, shooting guns, playing ball all those things.

[servicetech]

Cardboard tube should work fine, although I prefer to use PVC pipe. In all of my builds I've NEVER had a box "blow apart". As for air leaks be sure to caulk the seams in the box. I've had good luck using the caulking as the "glue", it's cheap and fills any uneven gaps nicely. Liquid nails makes a stronger bond than caulk and also fills gaps well.

[Villainstone]

Still slacking on the pics

Well still no pictures, the only reason why is because once I get to the garage and see that I forgot my Digi, I am to motivated to walk back in. I just want to get back to work cutting and sanding.

I cut the whole for the plate amp and cut out the center brace. I desided to reiforce the corners with a small square piece of MDF. This will just be better I think for stregth purposes, so I decided to go and go it. I haven't started gluing anything yet anyway so if I come up with something better I have time to figure it in. At any rate it is really coming together, and I got to get a good view at it when I clamped it all together. I will try and remember to take the camera out to the garage with me tomorrow.

[ThomasW]

The DIY motto is, "no pictures = no project" ..... :B

[Villainstone]

Here are my long promised pictures. This is the box all mocked up, but I obviously have a lot of work ahead of me. I need to cut the subwoofer hole and the port hole, but I do already have the Amp hole cut out. My workshop is hardly a "shop" but I am working on getting that all setup too.

I am really proud of myself and the work I have done so far. I am actually considering doing this on the side for extra cash. As long as there is a market for it in my area I'm sure that it would be a great idea.

Anyway here are the pics, and I will add more this weekend so stay tuned.

[Villainstone]

Here are my long promised pictures. This is the box all mocked up, but I obviously have a lot of work ahead of me. I need to cut the subwoofer hole and the port hole, but I do already have the Amp hole cut out. My workshop is hardly a "shop" but I am working on getting that all setup too.

I am really proud of myself and the work I have done so far. I am actually considering doing this on the side for extra cash. As long as there is a market for it in my area I'm sure that it would be a great idea.

Anyway here are the pics, and I will add more this weekend so stay tuned.

[chrisn]

Looking good!

You mentioned corner reinforcement and I think that is a good idea. Are you going with a single or double thick baffle?

I think you will enjoy that sub, I have the same driver (RS315HF) in a slightly larger, lower tuned box and really like it.

Good Luck

[Villainstone]

Thanks Chris... thats great to here about the drivers as well, I was hoping it was a good choice. I didn't want my tuning to be too low due to the music I listen to and how often I listen to it. I am using an car subwoofer in a crap CerwinVega box ATM so I'm sure it will be a huge improvement lol. Yes I am using a double baffle and I was thinking about doubling up the top also. The top and bottom are set in the sides, so the front and back, left and right sides surround the top and bottom board. I figured it will be sitting on the bottom so no need to double that up, but I am not sure either way. The extra wood could c be used for a center if I do not double up the tops, and that is why I am not very sure.

Alright tonight I cut the side to side braces, and the driver hole, I also have the whole setup and put together with clamps so I could see what I am working with so far. It is a bit bigger than I thought it would be and weighs more lol. Neither of which are a problem of course, I was just surprised.

I took some pictures for you guys to look at and give me some tips on how to fix it. I already have a good idea, but I'm sure with the experience on this forum there may be a better way. You will see what I am talking about, but my plan was to sand down all the uneven parts after it was all glued and well dried, right before I remove the clamps. In the picture the bottom of the box is perfectly flat, the bottom edge is a manufactured edge all around. As long as the manufactured edge is flat then the box is sitting completely flat. So I clamped it down and built up, clamping as I went up.


You can see by the picture below that there are some small gaps as well. These are obviously caused by a less than perfect cut by your truly but thats another matter lol. I will just use the table saw next time around. Anyway the biggest gap is no larger than a 16th so I might just be paranoid you guys can tell me. I was hoping that Liquid nails will take care of the gaps but really I am just not sure.

[---k---]

Caulk or liquid nails the insides so that the box is sealed. On the outside, try mixing up a slurry of wood glue and sawdust and fill the crack with it. Don't worry about it too much. Not that big of a deal, and we've all done it.

[Villainstone]

Well I am nearing the assembly stage and I would like to know what I should keep in mind. I mean is there any sort of order, or special way that I should glue and clamp? I was thinking that I should glue the edges and then use my air nailer to hold it in place while I clamp starting from the bottom and working my way up. After the glue dries I was gonna seal it with liquid nails, and then sand all the edges flush.

Now the biggest problem is the finish. I still have no idea what I am gonna do for a finish. I know that I want to stay away from veneer, as I deem it to difficult for the first time DIY. On the other hand I was thinking why not use the vinyl stick on stuff from PE? Of course I could always paint it but then I will have a big painted box in my living room lol.

[Villainstone]

Can I get a few tips please. I am about to go and put it together here soon, in like 12 hours lol.

[BobEllis]

tips:

1. Verify squareness as you clamp up

2. Use plenty of clamps

3. Don't sweat the small stuff.