It's time for a Statement announcing my latest project..

[Jim Holtz]

Jim, if it makes you feel any better, it took me about 3 weeks to get one box done and probably will have the second one done in another week. I, too, don't know how they do it so fast.

Ryan,

By my standards you're super fast! I am sloooow.....

Jim

[Sefferdog]

Made a bit of progress today. As I didn't have a PE port on hand and forgot to order one, I decided to fab one out of 3"PVC. I routed a donut to slip over each end, glued a blank over one end, routed it out to the inner diameter of the PVC, rounded it over, and there you have it, instant port. It took a bit longer than that but it was enjoyable. Attached photos show it far better than I can explain it.

[Sefferdog]

Also got the braces mounted in the cabs, got the ports mounted in the cabs, and rounded over the bottom exit of the port. I got the support braces cut and glued to the mid pass throughs and got those mounted as well. I was also able to get the cutouts routed out on the rear of the cabs for the passthroughs. 8O

This completes the major work for the main portion of the cabs. The remainder of my PE order will be here tomorrow, along with the tweeters. At that point I can rout my front baffles and construct the crossover. I will have them fired up before next weekend. :T

Photos attached.

[Brian Bunge]

Lookin' good! I think I may just have to make a trip over to Ocala to check them out.

Jim, I just realized my real issue is overall height of the cabinets. Were this an MTMWW design I could simply bump the height down to ~ 48", keep the same width, and adjust the depth to get the necessary volume for the 225's. Now I'm not sure how a deeper midrange chamber would affect the sound, or how moving the top 225 down to the lower part of the cabinet would affect the crossover. I'd be more concerned with the midrange than the xo though.

I wonder if this is even worth exploring...

[Hdale85]

I agree Brian. I was considering these but they are quite tall. If they were deeper and shorter it would be nice. Although I believe the reason for the height is to get the tweeter at ear level.

[Jim Holtz]

Lookin' good! I think I may just have to make a trip over to Ocala to check them out.

Jim, I just realized my real issue is overall height of the cabinets. Were this an MTMWW design I could simply bump the height down to ~ 48", keep the same width, and adjust the depth to get the necessary volume for the 225's. Now I'm not sure how a deeper midrange chamber would affect the sound, or how moving the top 225 down to the lower part of the cabinet would affect the crossover. I'd be more concerned with the midrange than the xo though.

I wonder if this is even worth exploring...

Hi Brian,

The height is pretty much fixed at 60" give or take depending on your seated ear height.The crossover is designed for a W-M/T/M-W format and changing that would require the crossover to be changed. You just can't get that RS225 on top of a MTM format, keep the tweeter at ear height and have a much shorter cabinet.

Curt and I talked about a deeper midrange transmission line and the cabinet can be much deeper with out affecting the sound. The proportions of the Statements look very good to my eyes. I don't like the look of real deep cabinets.

Sorry!

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

Doug,

Well, if we move the top 225 down and push the MTM up towards the top it would be easy to keep the tweeter height the same. I wouldn't think the affects of doing that would be a huge deal.

EDIT: Oops! I see Jim posted right before me. So nix what I said.

EDIT #2: Maybe I'll just build them as is and tell her to get over it. If this is the only issue that arises in our marriage I think we'll be just fine.

[Jim Holtz]

Doug,

Well, if we move the top 225 down and push the MTM up towards the top it would be easy to keep the tweeter height the same. I wouldn't think the affects of doing that would be a huge deal.

EDIT: Oops! I see Jim posted right before me. So nix what I said.

EDIT #2: Maybe I'll just build them as is and tell her to get over it. If this is the only issue that arises in our marriage I think we'll be just fine.

Hi Brian,

They are actually quite stately looking. With your superb cabinet building skills, I'd guess that your wife would find them very attractive. That's my story and I'm sticking to it anyway.

Honestly, Curt would be the definitive answer on changing the format to a MTMWW rather than me. I know he spent a lot of time voicing and integrating the bass/mids. That's the reason I suspect that format changes would require a crossover change. Shoot Curt an email for a straight answer.

Jim

[Sefferdog]

Lookin' good! I think I may just have to make a trip over to Ocala to check them out.

You are more than welcome to come on over anytime. I should have them up a running very, very soon.

[cjd]

I think the 225's cross high enough that it's not necessarily worth considering. Might be OK still. Could do a 3.5ish thing too I suppose. Don't remember, too lazy to go look at the stats on this design. :P

C

[Brian Bunge]

Jim,

Thanks for the kind words. I need to hear that sometimes to help me get my butt back in the garage. Especially when the heat and humidity are what they are right now.

Seffer,

Maybe I can make it one Saturday when my wife has to work in Merritt Island. I could probably drop her off early, head West, stay for an hour or two and then head back to pick her up.

I'd definitely like to see them first. I'm not quite feeling the baseplates. I'd probably have to come up with something a little more aesthetically pleasing. They're just killing me.

[Sefferdog]

Many forces were conspiring against me today. I got home late from work, normal for a Monday. Couple that with temps that feel near 9,000 degrees outside and it was easy to see not much would be accomplished. :evil: I did have several large packages at my front entry way. My complete PE order was here but the tweeters weren't. Hopefully tomorrow.

The other two packages also caused some delay in my progress. After posting for suggestions on a couple of boards and several emails with Jim Holtz, I received an Emotiva LPA-1/LMC-1 combo tonight and had to open those packages up to inspect for damage. :T Very well built units for the money. I will probably get around to hooking these up on Thursday, replacing my old Denon 3803.

At this point I was about to call it an evening but figured I might as well do a little. I got both baffles routed for the woofers and midranges and that was about it. I may lay out the crossovers and possibly solder them tonight, but I wouldn't lay a pile of money on that. :Z

Anyway, here are a couple of pics from tonights activities. These are definitely going to make a Statement. A very impressive looking speaker, even in this early stage of development.

One question for Jim, without digging through all of these posts what did you do for lining the cab? I recall reading you lined atound the woofer compartments and the mid enclosures and that was about it. Is this correct or was that some other project? Thanks for all of your help, it is appreciated!

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Sefferdog,

Great progress!

I used 2" wedge foam for the RS225 compartments and lined the mid transmission lines with one inch foam. I picked up the one inch foam at a local hobby store. The 2" came from Foam By mail but any 1 1/2" - 2" foam would work fine.

I'm about out of the 2" wedge foam so I think I'm going to give 703 fiberglass a try for my next project. I've done way more than usual this year so that'll probably be next year.

HTH

Jim

[kingpin]

Please nobody take this any other way but an observation from a new guy.
Is there sufficient bracing in the upper and lower part of the cabinet.
I thought I read somewhere here that there should be cross bracing at least every 7-9 inches. Or was that for sub construction.

Mike

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Mike,

I've always used a rule of thumb that I put a brace every 8"- 12". The Mid transmission lines are tied to the cabinet walls and there are both cross braces and shelf braces elsewhere. The cabinet is rock solid and weighs a ton. :T

Jim

[ahaik]

Hi Mike,

I've always used a rule of thumb that I put a brace every 8"- 12". The Mid transmission lines are tied to the cabinet walls and there are both cross braces and shelf braces elsewhere. The cabinet is rock solid and weighs a ton. :T

Jim

Rock solid indeed, I can attest to that.
I used the fiberlass insulation from home depot (after consulting with Jim) its the acoustical one without the paper backing, it workes great. Reading here in the forum, I came to the conclusion that its a little better then foam at the low end, am I right ?

Wade, looking great, I can feel the exitements :banana:
As for the Amp (and everything else), I would listen to whatever Jim says, he is the man.
Jim, BTW I got the Blue Jeans cables today, did not hook them up yet because it is very taugh to get the amp out of the cabinet (60 lbs and a small cab) will do that tomorrow with some help. Thanks for the advice.

Asi.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Asi,

Thanks for the kind word but I just have opinions. I've found things that work for me but that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone else.

I'm very pleased that it's all worked out for you and that you like the Statements as well as I. Let us know what you think of the cables once you get them installed. Their 10 gauge speaker cable seems to be another "great deal" with excellent sound quality and very reasonable prices.

Jim

[ahaik]

Hi Asi,

Thanks for the kind word but I just have opinions. I've found things that work for me but that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone else.

I'm very pleased that it's all worked out for you and that you like the Statements as well as I. Let us know what you think of the cables once you get them installed. Their 10 gauge speaker cable seems to be another "great deal" with excellent sound quality and very reasonable prices.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I have beed doing some quality listenning last night with the new RCA cables and I really feel there is a big improvement in the overall sound quality. The biggest impact is on the imaging and soundstage, much more focused. The detailing is better too and they sound a bit softer now (not that they sounded harsh before). I am sure these speakers can do much better with higher quality equipment. I'm really looking forward to bringing them the my brother's father in law (with the megabuck equipment), going on vaccation this weekend, so maybe next weekend.

Asi.

[digitalman]

Seff, Looking good man, keep up the fast work and i will be driving over as soon as your ready to audition them.

Brian, i still want to hear yours also, this weekend got too busy for me. I wrote you a pvt message but your box was full and it wouldnt accept it
Either way maybe we can go over to ocala together when he gets the statements done.

[Brian Bunge]

Yeah, I got a message saying it was full so I cleaned it out. I had someone come by on Saturday to check out my speakers and he really seemed to like them. He's even thinking of buying them off of me. We'll see.

I'm thinking of possibly heading over this weekend if Wade will have me. It really depends on him and whatever else I have to do on Saturday.

[Jim Holtz]

Mini's and center sneak peek!

This isn't an official announcement but rather a sneak peek at the designs to go with the Statements. The Mini Statements are a W/W/M/T format with RS180's and the center uses the same drivers in a W-T/M-W format. All open back on the mids of course. the Mini's could be built in a stand mount 30 liter cabinet rather than the 50 liter shown if the builder wanted to.

The cabinets are ready to deliver to Curt for crossover development. He has other commitments so I don't expect to see them back until around Labor Day at the earliest.

Enjoy!

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

Looking good, Jim! Remind me not to show these to my wife as she will try to talk me into building the surrounds as mains!

Also, I know with a 4" mid it's not really feasible, but I sure do wish there was a way to do a smaller 2-way using this tweeter for those of us with placement issues. My current surrounds sit on the bottom shelf of my end tables as there's no other place to place them. I know even small towers just would not work.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Brian,

actually, the mini Statements are designed to used as main speakers or surrounds. The sound quality should be the same as the Statements with less bass extension and less dynamic capability. They should be great for all but very demanding music. If you want to rock and get loud or do home theater, the Statements are the solution.

Jim

[Brian Bunge]

Jim,

Just out of curiosity, what are the dims of your mini-statement cabinets?

[Sefferdog]

This isn't an official announcement but rather a sneak peek at the designs to go with the Statements. The Mini Statements are a W/W/M/T format with RS180's and the center uses the same drivers in a W-T/M-W format. All open back on the mids of course. the Mini's could be built in a stand mount 30 liter cabinet rather than the 50 liter shown if the builder wanted to.

Jim

Wow, thanks for the heads up Jim. This is great news. I haven't even finished the Stetements and now you have me drooling to build the mates for surrounds and center.

Not much progress tonight on the Statements. Got the bass enclosures lined with insulation, got the inner baffles routed and got all holes drilled and hurricane nuts mounted for the speakers, except for the tweeters, which for some reason stayed in Jacksonville yesterday instead of coming to Ocala. They will be here for sure tomorrow (I hope )

I have taken off the rest of the week so I really hope to have them fired up in a couple of days. If I can get them going by Friday that will be one week from start to test drive. :T Not sure how I will finish them yet. Veneer of some sort, any suggestions?

Brian, I will keep you posted through the board of my progress and hopefully you will be able to come to Ocala this weekend and give them a listen.

No pics tonight as I am feeling rather lazy!

Thanks again Jim for all of the help amd encouragement. :lol: :lol:

[Jim Holtz]

Brian,

They are 10"W x 44"H x 13 3/4"D which includes 1 1/2" spikes. The look was intentionally created to give a similar appearance to the Statements. If the base was changed or spikes not used the drivers could be slid up on the cabinets or the depth could be adjusted for a slightly taller cabinet. Lots of options.

BTW, I won't have any cabinet drawings that look like the Statements drawing. They'll be scans of my hand layout.

Jim

[Jed]

Enjoy!

Jim

Geeze Jim, You are a speaker building machine, you make em' faster than I can think em' up.

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jed,

Not really. I am about the slowest cabinet maker around. Curt and I started talking about the Mini's soon after the statements were completed. The center was part of the original plan.

You're the one that's smart. Removable front baffles and countless driver combinations. I wish I could hear them.

Jim

[WillyD]

This isn't an official announcement but rather a sneak peek at the designs to go with the Statements. The Mini Statements are a W/W/M/T format with RS180's and the center uses the same drivers in a W-T/M-W format. All open back on the mids of course. the Mini's could be built in a stand mount 30 liter cabinet rather than the 50 liter shown if the builder wanted to.

The cabinets are ready to deliver to Curt for crossover development. He has other commitments so I don't expect to see them back until around Labor Day at the earliest.

Enjoy!

Jim

Wow Jim, these look really neat! I wish I had the money to spend...I'd build these just because. :twisted:

[Jed]

Removable front baffles and countless driver combinations. I wish I could hear them.

Jim

My friends say, "there's gonna come a time when you just have to be happy with what you have (speakers)." :rofl: h: nah- that's no fun! :T

[Hdale85]

Oh boy! Those Mini Statments look very apealing to me! I've been leaning away from the statments because they are so large! But these will do just fine I'd imagine! I was looking for other designs using the ribbon tweets. I think this is it!

[ahaik]

Superb woodwork Jim, as usual. These would be great for my next house.

[mmoeller]

;x( ;x( ;x( ;x(

[Brian Walter]

Wow Jim, those mini's look really nice. I could probably retro-fit my RS-3-ways into those, but keep the RS225's instead of the RS180's. My understanding is that the RS225's and RS180's are almost drop in replacements for one another if not crossed too high. I wish I had known about the center channel a little sooner. Just last week I bought the tweeter to build the multi purpose speaker Jon & Thomas are designing, to be used as a center channel for my RS-3-ways. In reality, if I keep my RS-3-ways, their design would likely match better anyway.

Would you like me to whip up another set of drawings for the mini's? I could probably do so if you'd like.

I'm thinking those mini's might make a nice Christmas present for either my son or my daughter. I guess I could make 4 of them and give each of them a set.

Brian Walter

[Jim Holtz]

Wow Jim, those mini's look really nice. I could probably retro-fit my RS-3-ways into those, but keep the RS225's instead of the RS180's. My understanding is that the RS225's and RS180's are almost drop in replacements for one another if not crossed too high. I wish I had known about the center channel a little sooner. Just last week I bought the tweeter to build the multi purpose speaker Jon & Thomas are designing, to be used as a center channel for my RS-3-ways. In reality, if I keep my RS-3-ways, their design would likely match better anyway.

Would you like me to whip up another set of drawings for the mini's? I could probably do so if you'd like.

I'm thinking those mini's might make a nice Christmas present for either my son or my daughter. I guess I could make 4 of them and give each of them a set.

Brian Walter

Brian,

You are a saint! I'd love to have Autocad drawings but I didn't feel it was right to ask and take advantage of your generosity. I'll scan the drawings I did and email them to you. ;x( You are the man!

Honestly, I think Jon's new center with the RS180's will be a better match for your RS 3-ways than the Statements center since a lot of the vocal range will be coming from the RS180's rather than the RS52 and will better match the RS150's than the W4-1337SA would.

I really can't comment on swapping RS225's for RS180's. The RS180's aren't nearly as sensitive as advertised and I think there would be a problem from that perspective but I'm not a crossover guy so I can't say for sure. The Mini Statements should end up with a F3 around 40 Hz. or a little lower so it will have quite good bass for most all music. I expect the mid range to be as good in the Mini's as it is in the Statements. I think it'll be a very nice speaker and one that'll fit in homes where size is an issue.

Thank you again for the generous offer of the Autocad drawings. It makes building the cabinets so much easier!

BTW, if you're up to a road trip later this Summer, you are welcome to come and listen to the Statements. The Mini's won't be ready until sometime in October, I'm guessing. I hope I can get them done in time for the Iowa DIY event.

Best regards,

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

;x( ;x( ;x( ;x(

Thank you! ops:

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Superb woodwork Jim, as usual. These would be great for my next house.

Hi asi,

I've got to quite posting pictures of unfinished cabinets. Actually, I tore the Statements apart this week and am getting them ready to paint. If things go well, they'll be painted by this weekend. The cabinets have to sit a week to let the lacquer cure before I can rub them out. So, they'll be down a couple weeks.

Jim

[Hdale85]

When Brian gets done with the autocad drawings I think I'm going to find a cabinet shop to start building them and order the drivers. Then I'll just be waiting for the final crossover design. In the meantime I'll be building my new amp though and tube preamp. So maybe by time the crossover design is complete I will have the other stuff done :B. I wish I had the space to build the enclosures my self... I kind of feel like I'm cheating by having a cabinet shop do them. I might still veneer them my self though.

[Hdale85]

Jim.... There isn't going to be any sort of bookshelf speaker that you could use for surround duty is there? I don't have the room to use the Mini Statements as surrounds. So not sure what I could use....Most likely would want something at least using the ribbon tweet.

This is like the only thing I can find in a small size using that tweet and well the mid is just wrong completely. Not to mention VERY expensive.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W15_Neo3.htm

[ahaik]

When Brian gets done with the autocad drawings I think I'm going to find a cabinet shop to start building them and order the drivers. Then I'll just be waiting for the final crossover design. In the meantime I'll be building my new amp though and tube preamp. So maybe by time the crossover design is complete I will have the other stuff done :B. I wish I had the space to build the enclosures my self... I kind of feel like I'm cheating by having a cabinet shop do them. I might still veneer them my self though.

If I may ask, Where do you find plans for Amps and Preamps ?
I might want to try that direction, is cost vs performance like DIY speakers ?

[Jim Holtz]

Jim.... There isn't going to be any sort of bookshelf speaker that you could use for surround duty is there? I don't have the room to use the Mini Statements as surrounds. So not sure what I could use....Most likely would want something at least using the ribbon tweet.

The Mini could be built into a stand mount but at 28" tall due too the number of drivers used, it's not a very small monitor speaker. The open back design for the mids doesn't lend itself well to a true book shelf design where the speaker would be placed on a shelf. Ribbons also are a bit more picky about being at ear height than domes.

If you're not into multi channel surround music and are leaning more towards home theater, I think Jon's new mid dome design would work great for surrounds. I'm a big fan of mid domes for surround speakers. The dispersion is so good that they create a "bubble" of sound and immerse you into the movie.

Jim

[cjd]

If I may ask, Where do you find plans for Amps and Preamps ?
I might want to try that direction, is cost vs performance like DIY speakers ?

Lots of stuff around in various places. DIYAudio has a lot, though it's not the easiest place to get around. Nelson Pass has some fun designs up on passdiy.com

Cost vs performance... sometimes it is waaaay out ahead on price, when we consider things like the 47 Labs Gaincard vs the various chip-amp offerings. On the other hand, there's the potential frustration, and a lot of things to learn if you don't know your way around electronics. Things like a pre-pro it's nigh impossible to go DIY - the licensing costs are prohibitive. Big power amps it's probably a wash by the time you're done. Toroidal transformers by the one's and two's (or even 5's and 7's) are much more costly than by the hundreds or thousands.

If you are more keen on assembling a kit, I've found Twisted Pear's products to be very good so far.

C

[KorbenDallas]

The Mini could be built into a stand mount but at 28" tall due too the number of drivers used, it's not a very small monitor speaker. The open back design for the mids doesn't lend itself well to a true book shelf design where the speaker would be placed on a shelf. Ribbons also are a bit more picky about being at ear height than domes.

If you're not into multi channel surround music and are leaning more towards home theater, I think Jon's new mid dome design would work great for surrounds. I'm a big fan of mid domes for surround speakers. The dispersion is so good that they create a "bubble" of sound and immerse you into the movie.

Jim

Any thoughts on using the ribbon/tang combo for the front stage vs. the dayton drivers and their sonic differences? I know with conventional lower end speakers it was best to use "voice matched" or "tonal matched" speakers within the same model to create a seamless front/back soundstage. Even though they'd be calibrated with white noise, the response curves are different and become noticeable.

Is that an issue with speakers of this caliber?

[Hdale85]

yeah I was wondering the same thing. Could you use something like the Modula MT for surround purpose, do you think there would be a huge noticeable difference?

[Jim Holtz]

Any thoughts on using the ribbon/tang combo for the front stage vs. the dayton drivers and their sonic differences? I know with conventional lower end speakers it was best to use "voice matched" or "tonal matched" speakers within the same model to create a seamless front/back soundstage. Even though they'd be calibrated with white noise, the response curves are different and become noticeable.

Is that an issue with speakers of this caliber?

Here's my opinion so take it for what it's worth. I want to state up front that I really dislike currently mixed multi channel music and am a two channel music lover. The mixing on SACD and DVD-A is crazy. Listeners sit in the audience not in the middle of the band. I find that very annoying. (stepping off my soapbox)

IMHO, for home theater, Modula M/T's would work great. Personally, I use a free design Rick Craig and I came up with several years ago for surrounds. They were called JH3's and used a Vifa M21 woofer, Dayton mid dome (not the RS52) and a morel MDT-12 tweeter. They work great as surround speakers. The dome mid has excellent dispersion and the M21 has darn good bass for a small sealed cabinet speaker.

If you do like multi channel music, I'd take Jon's advice and try to keep the speakers matched a closely as possible. In that situation, it will make a difference. If you can stand a 28" tall "monitor" size cabinet, the mini's would work great stand (not book shelf) mounted. I anticipate the cost to be in the $500-$550 area for drivers and crossover components however so it won't be a budget design. The center cost will be about 1/2 that.

HTH

Jim