A time for retro-tech... the "Obi-Wan"

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    #46
    Caps, inductors, and resistors order today, and the back-ordered RSS315PR's arrived this afternoon.

    :T

    :B
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15259

      #47
      Parts arriving...

      Crossover parts are arriving this week- first, the BK-2 phenolic tooling boards from Woodcraft that I like so much for building crossovers on, and yesterday the first set of caps (for one speaker- also ordered another set after some pondering of priorities)

      Click image for larger version

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      This is a new experiment, like the whole project; these are Clarity CSA copper connect capacitors, which after doing a lot of research I think may offer the best bang for the buck on the market today. 3% tolerance. Construction quality seems quite high. My really good LCR meter is packed away, so I can't do any "fancy" tests on these at the moment. I've ordered a batch of these to try out for the Isiris SIMPLIFY crossover POC build, too. My favorite vendor in the UK has very good stocking depth on these, and they include the on hand stock quantity for each value on the ordering pages. Typical delivery via FedEx is two days.


      Terminal strips also came in on Monday, and today I expect the inductors and resistors...

      I'm going to prepare a layout drawing, in EazyDraw for now- let's see how that goes, though I have a new 3D CAD program I could try out if I want to get a little more aggressive on the documentation end. There's so much stuff going on right now that I don't think I realistically have the time for that.
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • Bear
        Super Senior Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 1038

        #48
        Originally posted by JonMarsh
        My favorite vendor in the UK has very good stocking depth on these, and they include the on hand stock quantity for each value on the ordering pages. Typical delivery via FedEx is two days.
        HiFiCollective? If you don't mind my asking, what was the shipping charge on something like that? I'd expect to eat up any savings vs Madisound for parcel delivery, though stock levels look better on the other side of the pond.
        Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #49
          I would have to go back and dig up my info, I'm just putting together a bigger order for them- there is some class of FedEx they use between the UK and USA (CA in my case originally) that the shipping is both faster and cheaper than getting stuff from Solen in CA. Go figure...

          They have a fair selection of MR parts, too, which Madisound doesn't have any. They really have a pretty wide range of stuff available on order. And their IT seems solid, unlike those guys in Wisconsin that have a habit of shipping to my old address even though I've changed the address days earlier, then double checked at checkout that billing and shipping addresses are the same and correct- just happened to me this week. Early last year, they did that and shipped stuff to CA instead of ID. With what happened this week, I just put a note in an envelope in the door at the old rental here in Nampa, with my phone# and email, and we arranged how to pick it up (the house was sold last October- my lease was terminated and had to move out in September, get a new lease- not what I was planning on). Funny thing, the new owner there is from Simi Valley CA, which is just NW of LA.

          By this evening or some time tomorrow I should have a layout plan completed- I'll share that just for fun for the curious among you. The inductors and resistors did come in today.
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15259

            #50
            Yesterday I finished a first pass layout drawing of the Test Article 1 crossover design- due to the mixed Series/parallel design, having it all on one board is usually preferable. In this case, the layout is planned for my favorite phenolic tooling boards available from Woodcraft, 1/4" thick and 11" x 15" - it seems to be almost the perfect size for this. All parts on hand.

            Oh, and the terminal strips shown are a low cost Keystone Electronics part available from Digieky, the Digikey number is 36-829-ND.

            I'll draw up both my "semi-perfectionist" BOM with the nice caps and resistors and a Budget BOM with Dayton film caps and resistors.

            Drawing was created in EazyDraw. Yes, I created foortprints for components, but its a lot faster than doing it with my CAD tools.


            Click image for larger version

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            Now, I am going to take a stab at the target enclosure design, likely using a new tool I've come across,

            Equip design, engineering, and manufacturing teams with a multidevice CAD tool that lets everyone work together, exactly where they need.


            From my favorite new Hungarian CAD company!




            Note, the core engine is well known and quite powerful- Siemens Parasolid, the same engine SolidWorks uses.

            Yes, they have a version that works with Apple Pencil on an iPad, (preferably iPad Pro) but the straight Mac version is what I'm trying out for now. They way a Windows version is in the work, but I know that the lack of suitable frameworks in the OS makes the writing effort substantially greater.

            That's part of why Fuzzmeasure isn't on the PC.
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15259

              #51
              BTW, though the BK-2 phenolic boards are described as 11" x 15", my measurements show nearly 12" x 16"!

              Who'da thunk you might get more than advertised?

              This makes the layout somewhat "conservative" and easier to mount up parts than I expected.
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15259

                #52
                Fast iteration

                with most parts mounted on the board, and the actual board measurements taken, I've also updated the crossover plan...


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                And, showing the actual board- which highlights how the horizontal representation of the terminal strips makes it look like less room is available, but seems easier to understand the wiring.


                Click image for larger version

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                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • tktran
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2005
                  • 658

                  #53
                  Looking good! And great progress.

                  What was the rational for your 1.7KHz crossover point Jon?

                  I completed a Purifi 2 way last year, and also landed on a 1.8KHz crossover point, based on a few factors.

                  A) Look at where the midwoofer starts to beam. One way to do this is to look at the cone size, and this is where the Purifi 6.5TT beats many other 6.5" drivers, and closes in on 5.5" midwoofers. In fact, the off-axis response is +/- 1dB, out to about 1.8Khz, all the way out to 60 degrees.

                  Which that means is, once we correct/EQ for the on-axis, the off-axis should also be smooth and flat all the way to 60 degrees.

                  B) The tweeter must be able to handle the mid/woofer's crossover point, depending on intended SPL and distortion.

                  C) The exact point crossover point needs to be balanced by the drivers in phase at the crossover region. The old invert tweeter is a good check for a reverse null, but with Vituixcad I've found that it's not necessary.


                  I'm not certain there's best-practice principles, but for me it's a balance/trade-off of designing around all factors.

                  My musing is, what is acceptable, and what is high performing.

                  Should we be looking at the 30 or 45 degree horizontal off axis, as a cut-off for acceptability?
                  And what constitutes beaming? -1dB, -3dB, -6dB?
                  What tweeter distortion level should be acceptable?
                  What other factors should we consider?

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15259

                    #54
                    Let me tell you the analogy I gave a friend...

                    A lot of good questions, and funny enough, I think I can best start addressing them with an overview of how I explained this project to a former colleague that I'm still in touch with a lot (daily), but one who knows nothing about speaker design- EE, but worked in marketing.


                    You could call the "Obi-Wan" a marriage of convenience, and as recommended by the traditional Old English rhyme, the bride needs "Something Olde, Something New, Something Borrowed, Something Blue, A Sixpence in your Shoe"—which names the four good-luck objects (plus a sixpence) a bride should include somewhere in her wedding outfit or carry with her on her wedding day.

                    :rofl:

                    Now that I may have completely confused you, let me explain...

                    This is a marriage of convenience, that is to say, a pairing of drivers I already had a couple on hand (Dayton RS225) and one that is very inexpensive but which has historical sentimental value to me (the MB Quart Buyout at PE, which they've got over 300 of)(I've used MB Quart tweeters since the late 70's, and the prototype speakers I gave my old friend Charlie Hansen had MB Quart tweeters, and that led (after a ten year hiatus) to the use of a custom MB Quart tweeter in the first Avalon models. (Charlie founded Avalon Acoustics in Boulder).

                    The convenience aspect is putting together a temporary monitor (so I'll have something to use) for my music learning and playing room (not HiFi setup; think something more like a DAW and playback system for instructional videos and recording work in progress) in the house under contract, because supply chain issues have setup some big road blocks for the two way floor to ceiling line arrays I intend to use for that application (hopefully they will still happen, but the development and procurement path is a lot less clear than it seemed a year ago).


                    Something Olde, Something New, Something Borrowed, Something Blue


                    So, how do things fit into this rhyme?


                    Something old:

                    Well, obviously, we could say the drivers fit into that category, as far as Dayton drivers go, the RS225 has been around a long, LONG time, and the MB Quart makes it look like a junior partner. And the basic concept of a two way mini-monitor has been around practically forever... even if it's not all that mini. And the choice of the RS225 was no accident; I looked at a lot of 8" drivers, in fact, nearly everything out on the DIY market, and I find for a two way system it's probably very hard to beat this one- same curvilinear cone concept as the venerable RS180, and I find that has some advantages over many other cone shapes. I'll explain more below.


                    Something new:
                    • Well, the form factor is clearly something new for me, borrowed from the fine folks at Q Audio. A relatively small front panel, with a very deep cabinet to get the volume needed for extended bass. Of course, I'm planning for my own build to use the embesllishment of a passive radiator, not just a long port. But for the budget builds, a plastic tube is relatively cheap.
                    • I've done much more extensive baffle analysis than usual for a budget build, and came up with a fast and cheap test cabinet configuration with essentialy the same baffle behavior as my preferred and planned 16" high by 12" wide front panel for my own builds.
                    • This is revisiting a design area I'd call a classic two way, and the tools avaialble when I did the last ones like the NatlieP and the Modula MT XE were not nearly as sophisticated- so giving credit where credit is due, I'd cite VituixCAD 2 and the current version of Rode Text Fuzzmeasure as big assets for speeding the project along. Plus Dayton DATS, for impedance measurements.
                    • I'm planning to use the same amplifier with these as with the original line array concept- a Denafrips Hyperion, and probably with the Hestia preamp; just gotta find it in my storage units after we move. It's not high power, 80W/channel balanced, but very nice behavior and sound. Represents what I'd call good value middle high end, not nose bleed territory like the Edge W or Halcro's. What parts one uses in the crossover should be guided by the usage case and source equipment and amplification.










                    Something borrowed:

                    • A very natural and easy decision was borrowing the basic quasi-series/parallel crossover topology of the Modula MT/Natalie P; I could say soemthing silly, like, if it ain't broke, dont' fix it, but in actuality I find this topology has some benefits in managing the transition region.
                    • And while the elliptic filter concept used in those earlier crossovers is emloyed here, I'm also borrowing tricks employed by the SMJ Calliope, with a series notch filter for the tweeter break up mode, which in practice for the Calliope results in much lower measured distortion for the tweter in crossover up high than for the raw driver.



                    Something blue:
                    • This sort of didn't quite work out the way I wanted- I knew I wanted to use Clarity caps, the new CSA version, and almost all Clarity caps are blue (see picture below), but I'll have to admit the CSA Copper Connect ones are a tad, shall we say, purpleish.
                    • But for the budget build, you could alway use the PX series, and they definitely are blue!






                    Now, as to some specifics regarding some of your questions...


                    A) Look at where the midwoofer starts to beam. One way to do this is to look at the cone size, and this is where the Purifi 6.5TT beats many other 6.5" drivers, and closes in on 5.5" midwoofers. In fact, the off-axis response is +/- 1dB, out to about 1.8Khz, all the way out to 60 degrees.

                    Which that means is, once we correct/EQ for the on-axis, the off-axis should also be smooth and flat all the way to 60 degrees.
                    Couldn't agree more. Something over looked often in that discussion besides nominal cone diameter is the impact of cone shape and construction. I need only cite the behavior of some curvilinear cone drivers (like the RS series) or the "dome woofers" (like the Accuton AS168, or AS190) to make my case.

                    Now, a quick review of my measurements out to 50 degrees of the RS225-4.




                    I couldn't find any other 8" driver that matches this level of tracking versus polar axis. I think the straight sided cones of the majority of drivers has something to do with that.
                    What I can argue, is that though the driver isn't "flat" to 2700 Hz, it is "consistent" up to that point, things go awry, of course, after 3kHz, a bit lower than the RS180.

                    B) The tweeter must be able to handle the mid/woofer's crossover point, depending on intended SPL and distortion.
                    No argument here, though for good measure, one must qualify with the crossover type. Stress on the tweeter is a lot lower with higher order crossovers. if you want a first or 2nd order crossover, tweeter must be robust down very low, and must be crossed higher up.

                    The Natalie P used the venerable RS25a tweeter, produced by Usher, and which their Dayton replacement is not a satisfactory substitute. Since I made the earlier decision to go haring after the MB Quart model, I have to consider it's capabilities and plan accordingly.





                    Distortion plots are quite low until below 2 kHz, then start to rise.

                    The crossover point for the NatalieP was dictated by a variety of factors, including CTC distance. It was 1800Hz. In respect of the less extended top end of the RS225, I chose 1700 Hz as the initial target here, but instead of my quasi LR3 incoporating time offset of the woofers to achieve phase tracking, I selected the LR6 target with reversed driver phase due to the steepness of roll off, and the results of my experimentation that a 180 degree matching phase transition between the drivers is easier to manage successfully. Part of why many designers like the LR2.

                    Complicating matters are the broad bump in the presence range, centered at 4kHz (possibly diffraction related on the enclosure) and of course the breakup peak at about 26kHz. In a budget build, you might be satisfied leaving off the 4K network, but the ultrasonic break up peak reduces IM distortion in the audible range, and so is very desirable. And by providing an adjustable resistance in the 4K network, one can implement a presence control of sorts, if desired.

                    C) The exact point crossover point needs to be balanced by the drivers in phase at the crossover region. The old invert tweeter is a good check for a reverse null, but with Vituixcad I've found that it's not necessary.

                    BTW, I do the reverse phase null test all the time during crossover development; old habits die hard, even though VituixCAD provides good phase info, if you have solid MP driver data and your woofer time offset is determined accurately.

                    This is the modeled response as posted earlier,





                    My musing is, what is acceptable, and what is high performing.

                    Should we be looking at the 30 or 45 degree horizontal off axis, as a cut-off for acceptability?
                    And what constitutes beaming? -1dB, -3dB, -6dB?
                    What tweeter distortion level should be acceptable?
                    What other factors should we consider?
                    Some of this is going to come down to the specific usage case including room environment. And also, can one maintain a consistent polar plot versus frequency? This is where the room power response sort of falls apart unless it's a very dead environment, or if the system inherently has limited polar response in the mid bass and low midrange, like an Orion dipole, or the Dutch & Dutch 8C. My personal preference is to look at drivers and full system behavior out to 50 degrees off the horizontal axis, at 10 degree increments. When I see tweeter waveguide assemblies (like the new SB part) or compression drivers with waveguides (Like some of the Faital parts) that are way down in the upper range off axis, I'm not impressed.

                    This is the measured response plots I obtained for the Satori Be Waveguide.




                    now, I think I was having an off day on the measurement setup, but even if you elevate the off axis responses so that at 750 Hz they track exactly, the spread at 2kHz and above is poor and gets steadily worse with increasing frequency. Now, that doesn't mean you can't build a listenable speaker with it, especially if you know you're going to stay between 0 degrees and 20 degrees, but it doesn't match the waveguide and tweeter used in the Modula MT XE, which was an inexpensive MCM wave-guide and SS Discovery class tweeter.

                    I think the baffle design is a neglected factor for many systems, as to how it impacts the overall launch and the driver room response.


                    but I'm pretty hopeful that this combination of drivers (including the extended polar tracking to 50 degrees) and crossover will do nicely for my intended use, and I'm sharing it because it has the potential to do similar things for builders at the Natalie P did, but with a clearcut path to a more extended bottom end, and with drivers currently available at relatively low cost. I wish other PR manufacturers would document and include mass adjustability as comprehensive as for the Dayton RSS265PR and RSS315PR.

                    As to tweeter distortion, I'm kind of picky about that, and I'm not very fond of the Scanspeak tweeter design philosophy, emulated broadly by SB Acoustics, of very low HD3 but 20 dB or more higher HD2. That path leads to IM distortion, and the Dark side!
                    At 2.83 VRMS drive, and 90 dB output, I like to see tweeter distortion at -65 to -70, or lower. To do this with hard dome tweeters with breakup modes in the 25-35kHz region requires using a series notch filter with adjustable Q, then you can see much better numbers than the raw driver. Otherwise, the distortion plot shows the clear effect of resonance amplification of distortion products. This is why Accuton also posted "filtered" distortion plots at times, but didn't really explain what the filtering was about.

                    Note this distortion plot of the completed Calliope with DA25.





                    But, as the Brits would also say, the proof is in the pudding. Once the remaining parts and wire get here, I'll probably have a good idea if it's going to work out as planned.
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • tktran
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2005
                      • 658

                      #55
                      As usual, it’s a joy reading your replies, Jon.

                      The wonderful narrative of the origin and context of this design.

                      A lot of the research available for public consumption is great, however they also use standardised methods eg; mono; anechoic rooms, which then makes the generalisability of the findings a challenge; in a open living room using stereo- does it apply?

                      I too, believe that room factors play a large part. On baffle dimensions and shape I also believe play a large part.
                      Whether I can hear the difference between a well designed baffle with a deep 1”+ roundovers and carefully positioned drivers, or a boring rectangular box; I haven’t tested empirically for myself.

                      I haven’t managed to convince myself that I can reliably tell the difference between a bare baffle, and the diffraction effects of a grill effects.

                      A few decades ago I did some double blinded testing regarding high bitrate MP3 and CD and a friend and I tended to prefer to the MP3. We were shocked and somewhat embarrassed. What blasphemy! How could we enjoy and prefer data compressed music?!

                      Well it turns out that years later some research has shown that MP3 can be preferred. The sound of distortion is curious.

                      Which DA25 tweeter is this? DA25TX or DA25BG?

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15259

                        #56
                        Which DA25 tweeter is this? DA25TX or DA25BG?
                        The Calliope uses the DA25TX; we've used that in several designs. It's a real bargain in the performance/cost ratio; it's drawbacks are mainly the large size and flimsy front plate- I've actually dissembled these on occasion and epoxied two front plates together and re-assembled the tweeter with one of the motor/dome assemblies, and keeping the other as a repair backup. Steve is looking into making a custom baseplate for it. Given that two cost about $100, it's by far the best $100 tweeter you can buy. Having measured a LOT of tweeter in 2019 and 2020, my opinion is that it's one of the best tweeters at or below $400.

                        I too, believe that room factors play a large part. On baffle dimensions and shape I also believe play a large part.
                        Whether I can hear the difference between a well designed baffle with a deep 1”+ roundovers and carefully positioned drivers, or a boring rectangular box; I haven’t tested empirically for myself.

                        Well, you can measure the differences with home gear, so then it comes down to how audible they are in a given system and acoustic environment. The three part article I wrote for Speaker Design "Breaking with “modern conventions”- a highly musical two-way system using an eight-inch woofer" in about 2005 goes into that and many other topics- I used to have a download link available, but iCloud doesn't support that anymore- the 48MB size precludes emailing, but it's easy to send using Apple Messages. I've sent it out to a few folks recently.

                        A few decades ago I did some double blinded testing regarding high bitrate MP3 and CD and a friend and I tended to prefer to the MP3. We were shocked and somewhat embarrassed. What blasphemy! How could we enjoy and prefer data compressed music?!

                        Well it turns out that years later some research has shown that MP3 can be preferred. The sound of distortion is curious.
                        The sound of distortion and what is musically annoying and what isn't so annoying is a curious subject- even back in the 70's, we were aware that speakers had higher distortion than what was usually measured on amplifiers, yet a good speaker could be very revealing of the differences between electronics that had soft distortion characteristics and maybe what you'd call hard or irritating distortion characteristics.

                        On the digital side, in the 70's and part of the 80's I had by the standards then a fairly high end vinyl rig (Rabco turntable, Denon 103 MC cartridge, my own custom built step up transformer, and my own custom built two stage phono preamp with passive EQ, using modules (my own) similar to the Mark Levinson modules designed by John Curl. CD had little attraction for me, other than becoming a ubiquitous source of new music and the POTENTIAL for good sound, someday, when people sorted out consumer level playback electronics adequately. I had experience building studios with friends and working in them some, as well as live classical recording, including symphonic works, and had a setup at home in Boulder CO. that was setup in an unusual manner and imaged very well. So, lets just say, I had standards.

                        The first DAC I heard that cut it in most regards, including imaging and timbre, especially if you put Antelope Isochrone clock/data stabilizer in front of it, was the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC. I passed that unit on to Steve Manning a while back. The guys that designed it were the ones behind the Pacific Microsonic encoder and decoder, which were the industry standard for professional CD work. I'd love to have the new version of that, or the Alpha RS DAC, but alas, I can't afford the price of a car for a DAC at this point!

                        I have a Denafrips Terminator with the upgraded DSP/control board, and in storage my TotalDAC D2. I use a Brainstorm DCD-8 to clean up the data path, with a rubidium oscillator for a low jitter clock source for the Brainstorm.

                        Now, I expect that sounds a bit over the top (or a lot over the top) but I was working with a colleague in upper management in Munich evaluating a lot of digital sources and paths, and his wife (pediatric doctor but music lover) was our reality check- she was a skeptic about a lot of this stuff, but if she agreed on how it sounded better, or different, then we usually figured we were on to something. In the end, R2R ladder DACs like the TotalDAC won out, along with the Brainstorm reclocking and even TotalDAC reclocking units.

                        Now, if you want to have a real giggle of a read, how about some review discussion of the three new models of the Yiggy DAC from Schitt Audio? Schitt likes R2R ladder DACs, too, but tries to use some of the few commercial chips available. Recently they've introduced three new versions, using different chips.




                        From Audiophile Style (formerly Computer Audiophile)

                        Last week I flew to The Schiitr to participate in a double blind listening session of the three Yggdrasil DACs. Before getting into all the specifics of the listening session, let's cut right to the first part of the chase and let Schiit Audio describe the three models.

                        Yggdrasil Less Is More. Uses four (yes, 4) TI DAC8812 stereo 16-bit DACs and integrated differential amplification afterwards. Because it’s 16 bits, and because the DACs cost less than the other options, it is less expensive than any other version. It also measures a bit better than the Yggdrasil OG (!) despite being down 4 bits. This is the wonder and magic of dither. $2199

                        Yggdrasil More is Less. Middle priced. Uses four TI DAC11001 20-bit DACs and integrated differential amplification afterwards. These new DACs really push the limits of measured multibit performance. Although they are true 20-bit multibit architecture DACs, their integrated sample-and-hold provides measured performance near the top of today’s DACs. $2349

                        Yggdrasil OG. Also known as ... Yggdrasil Analog 2. Uses four Analog Devices 20-bit DACs and discrete analog buffering and summing afterwards. The only discrete Yggdrasil model, and the one that everyone has known and loved for the past few years. $2599

                        Let's cut to the final chase scene before going over the nuances of listening to each DAC. By far, my favorite version is Yggdrasil Less Is More. That's right, the least expensive model, with the least number of bits (16 bit DAC chips, 17 bits total), sounded the best. It wasn't even close. The second place DAC was Yggdrasil OG, the original Yggy that I've listened to for years in my system. My least favorite DAC was Yggdrasil More is Less. You read that right, the best measuring multi bit DAC ever, sounded the worst to me. This conclusion wasn't a close call.

                        My preference
                        Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199)
                        Yggdrasil OG ($2,599)
                        Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349)

                        My notes about each DAC range from high praise to describing one as a "jumbled mess."

                        Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199) - The sound was 100% appropriate, in that it can be sharp or mellow and everything in between. This DAC didn't editorialize. When the piano started on this track, I leaned back and said "Yes." The sound put me at ease, relaxed me, and was absolutely right. The DAC has great bass extension with articulation and solidity. The piano hammer strikes at roughly 2:20 into the track sounded fantastic. It's hard to want more from a DAC than this Yggy can give.

                        Yggdrasil OG ($2,599) - The original Yggdrasil was good on this track, but not at the same level as the Less is More DAC. Bass was a touch boomy, but not loose. I heard the slightest touch of a synthetic sound in the mid to low frequencies of the piano compared to my favorite version of the Yggy. None of this is audible when listening in isolation and I've never heard this on my own system. But, under direct comparison, it was there for one's ears to hear.

                        Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349) - OK, I'll say it, what a disappointment for me. I hear blur in the midrange, extra crispy high frequencies, and harsh hammer strikes. Despite this DAC's measurement bonafides, I'm not a fan of its sound. It offered no redeeming qualities for me. This wasn't the case for others listening, but at this level of performance it's really about taste.

                        The very first sentence on the Schiit Audio Yggdrasil web page says, "Forget everything you know about DACs." I concur in the most unequivocal way possible. Members of the Audiophile Style community are well aware that I absolutely love the Schiit Audio Yggdrasil DAC. I reviewed it back in Novemb...






                        Now, I might be wrong, but I think if I could put them on the bench with my APx555 I might be able to figure out why the rankings look like this- bits are not just bits, and all bits are not created equal. The schematics would be interesting, too. I was on the verge of building my own DAC until the Berkeley Alpha DAC came along.
                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
                        Modula Neo DCC
                        Modula MT XE
                        Modula Xtreme
                        Isiris
                        Wavecor Ardent

                        SMJ
                        Minerva Monitor
                        Calliope
                        Ardent D

                        In Development...
                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                        Obi-Wan
                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                        Modula PWB
                        Calliope CC Supreme
                        Natalie P Ultra
                        Natalie P Supreme
                        Janus BP1 Sub


                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • ergo
                          Senior Member
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 675

                          #57
                          Jon, thanks for the pointers again
                          Equip design, engineering, and manufacturing teams with a multidevice CAD tool that lets everyone work together, exactly where they need.

                          Seems very nice and useful. I do have iPad and it does run on Windows ok too. So good to have an option that works on the go and on desktop. I've been using F360 and will keep doing that for work that requires CNC, Shapr seems perfect for simpler stuff that will get 3D printed or just for making plans and mockups.

                          ... and the project itelf is a very interesting one to follow as well

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15259

                            #58
                            Glad you're enjoying it- I think the Shapr3d has some real potential, and obviously it's got a solid engine. Now, I just have to find a bit of spare time! That may be hard the next 2-3 weeks! or actually, if the deed gets done, then moving will start, so make that 6-8 weeks!
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • tktran
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2005
                              • 658

                              #59
                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                              The Calliope uses the DA25TX; we've used that in several designs. It's a real bargain in the performance/cost ratio; it's drawbacks are mainly the large size and flimsy front plate- I've actually dissembled these on occasion and epoxied two front plates together and re-assembled the tweeter with one of the motor/dome assemblies, and keeping the other as a repair backup. Steve is looking into making a custom baseplate for it. Given that two cost about $100, it's by far the best $100 tweeter you can buy. Having measured a LOT of tweeter in 2019 and 2020, my opinion is that it's one of the best tweeters at or below $400.
                              What's the faceplate made of? Can it be sanded or grinded down to the typical 104 or 110 diameter size?

                              I'm probably buy a couple and see if I can hack it.

                              Comment

                              • Steve Manning
                                Moderator
                                • Dec 2006
                                • 1879

                                #60
                                Originally posted by tktran
                                What's the faceplate made of? Can it be sanded or grinded down to the typical 104 or 110 diameter size?

                                I'm probably buy a couple and see if I can hack it.
                                The idea is for an upcoming center channel build that we are looking at for Sven. The intent is to use the DA25 and the Morel EM1308, but we need to get them to fit closer together. Essentially we discard the face plates from both drivers and mount them to a single new face plate. My thought was to try Corian or something similar, since it's pretty easy to machine.
                                Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15259

                                  #61
                                  Originally posted by tktran
                                  What's the faceplate made of? Can it be sanded or grinded down to the typical 104 or 110 diameter size?

                                  I'm probably buy a couple and see if I can hack it.

                                  The faceplate is not governing the size- it's the magnet and motor! The magnet body is 90mm in diameter.
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

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