Chinese... anyone?

[BTB]

I'm sure that all but the most uninformed audiophile has noticed that China (or rather Chinese manufacture) has become a major component of the mid to high end audio marketplace these days. My Rotel amplifiers were made in China, so was the Marantz integrated I owned before it, and I'm sure that many others own products from other well known brands which have similar origins.

Some believe that products produced in China are inherently inferior and not worth serious consideration. Two experiences have convinced me that this attitude is absolute biased rubbish. One is my "made in China" Rotels haven't given me any trouble whatsoever since I bought them and the other is a listening experience I had at a friends place recently. A short while ago, he acquired a few pieces of (Chinese made) Opera Audio, Consonance valve gear incl. a Droplet CD player & turntable and a pair of Cyber 800 monoblocks. For whatever it's worth, I'm an architect, so I consider standards of manufacture very critically, but I could not fault them in terms of build quality. Design is a bit more tricky to judge, very much an "eye of the beholder" decision, but let's just say, they don't fall into the anonymous "black box" category. But design considerations aside their real "magic" lies in their sonic performance. Neither soft and warm (as most typecast valves) nor sterile and analytical in a way that most would agree valves could never sound, but rather somewhere pleasantly in between. Yet what struck me most was the presence music had when played on this gear, as well as... dare I say it... their musicality. Listening for a considerable period of time, I felt no compulsion to mentally pull the music apart into a technical analysis (eg. bass was good, soundstaging was... blah, blah, blah... etc, etc...) Instead I just listened to music, and enjoyed it a great deal. Now just to be clear, this isn't a valve/transistor debate... more a statement of the fact that these are Chinese designs, not a big name Euro/US brand made in China, and they sounded glorious despite having no snob value!!

At present I am eagerly awaiting my chance to listen to soon to arrive samples of the new Consonance, Forbidden City "Calaf" integrated amp, a 200wpc/8 ohms (1st 40wpc in Class A) valve/transistor hybrid in the hopes of replacing my current amplification with it. I doubt that owners of the current reigning super amp brands would lose sleep over this lot, nor do I suppose that these same folks would be having a Krell/Classe/Ayre etc. bonfire anytime soon, and switching to Chinese brands in their droves; but these sure did sound good to me, and challenged my (occasionally smug) western attitude towards Far Eastern goods.

And as for the "sweatshop" exploited worker argument one sometimes hears as a further justification for why these products should continue to be sidelined... surely the same rationale has to apply to our big brand running shoes & designer jeans? In other words the moral high ground in this instance is more of a shaky pause on a very slippery slope. In any event, they do present those of us who aren't on a super amp budget (and a willingness to experiment) with a great sounding alternate to the usual suspects.

I'd be truly interested to hear the opinions of others on this matter, if indeed anyone has strong feelings for or against. As for me, it did take quite a bit of thinking to get my own attitude re-alinged even this little bit, so I understand the apprehension of others. But wouldn't it be interesting if we used our ears exclusively to decide these things, and let go of the snob value for a bit?

[Karma]

HI BTB,
I have nothing against the Chinese or any other nationality when it comes to building electronics equipment. I have lived through the Japanese invasion and learned that they can do it as well as anyone and in some cases better.

However, there are issues to consider that may not be obvious without a schematic diagram and extended use. First, is the equipment reliable? Will it run for 10 years with no problems? Second, while I like the Japanise build quality, I do not generally like their sound. There are a couple of exceptions.

In your post you started by writing about Chinese built equipment then switched to Chinese designed equipment. Which do you mean? Certainly giving a production worker a box full of parts and an order to put an amplifier together which is designed in, for example, the US, is different than a pure Chinese design. Whose components do they use. Do these have a track record? Who designed the amplifier. Does this person have a track record? Is the the company viable in the long run?

I am not usually an enthusiastic early adopter of anything. I distrust any new product until field tests prove they are viable. I would distrust any Chinese originated design simply because they have no history I can lay my fingers on. I admit that this may not be fair or even smart. But that's my attitude and I'm sticking to it.

If you are an architect, you can afford to buy the best. Why not do it? Saving a minor amount of money seems a fooloish economy unless you have another agenda you are not stating.

Good luck.

Sparky

[BTB]

If you are an architect, you can afford to buy the best. Why not do it?
Sparky

:rofl: I'm only starting my career now, so I'm afraid I'm not quite "flush" just yet!! And might not be for a while yet! Architecture is not the big money profession everyone seems to think it is, but thanks for the vote of confidence!!

To answer your one point in particular... No... no hidden agenda... other than my 51% share in the company!! Just kidding

Anyway, you raise some interesting points. Just the kind of discussion I had hoped for... esp. the reliability & track record issues. As far as I could see these things are the real deal, well made, heavy as hell and as I said, to my ears, sound really special. A million miles from mass market junk. They've also recieved numerous positive reviews in the British & US audio press, for what that's worth.

I suppose I remain sceptical until I get to do the home demo the dealer promised me, but at this point no more sceptical than if I were trying any other slightly exotic "boutique" product. I posted with the intent to see if their was interest enough for a general discussion about the "chinese invasion". And to consider this prosepect: If they (Chinese manufacturers) are prepared to offer good value products, if others would be prepared to take a chance on them as opposed to paying top dollar for the already established "super brands" that might not necessarily offer much more than a flash name in a head to head comparison. In other words, if they could overcome cultural and marketing bias, and be marketed at competative prices would anyone bite?

I guess your vote would be a cautious "wait and see"? And you offer sound reasons for your stance, so fair enough.

[Vinny]

China has gone frenzy in building audiophile products for a long time. Most of the audio products price tags can go as high as a year's salary with no ease. Cables that ask for $500/feet are everywhere(it can be more ridiculous). We do not see them outside Asia because the manufactors are small in scale and did not break into international market. More products were even only done half way and people build their own components and they can cost a lot more than anyone's system here.
The build quality and quality control among the products are staying low because the low production cost(believe it or not, there are still many people getting $30 for a month for working full time).

However, many companies are trying hard to get out of the stereotype of China's low quality control products. And over last couple years I can definitely see improvement. Now I do not just look at where it's from but look through it's build quality instead if it came from China. If there's a way to decrease the cost of I'm paying and getting the same thing, why not?

Peek into your speaker's cabinet: besides the drivers, most of the component connection can be done by a 6 years old kid, manufactor in China is definitely capacable for it. Why we have to pay $300(or insert cost here for your speakers' connection) or even more for that?

[Boombox]

History shows that cheap labour and exploitation of the poor have build large and strong economies. China has always been a strong economic powerhouse and at the moment it is just regaining some ground it lost to Europe and the USA. Obviously, with its huge workforce it can offer Western companies cheaper manufacturing costs because its labour is so cheap. This is where I feel guilty buying products with "Made in China", because I know that in the production chain someone is being exploited ops: .

Clearly the Danes manufacture their speakers at home with huge labour costs making their products expensive (why I chose the Danes is still not clear to me either), but this is where I am heading. Knowing that people have great joy in producing their product. Though my direction is clearly idealistic, its the same as stopping to smoke to save the environment. Every little effort helps.

As far as Chinese products go, I'm certain that China produces some of the world's best audio equipment. However, I must admit that I will also be slightly sceptical in buying any of their products. This is shear ignorance on my part and I am certain that this attitude will change in the near future. To me its the same as buying an American car. They might be good in the States, but here (apart from the Jeeps), I would'nt give them a thought. I've grown up with German/Japanese vehicles and mostly European/Japanese products all my life.

A final thought. With the new big telesope in South Africa now running, the products the engineers and physicists received from Russia was out of this world top class quality, built exactly to specification, on time and within budget, whereas other products out-sourced to companies in the States where either late, not to spec and more expensive than originally qouted . We clearly have a distorted view of the East and communist countries and their products.

Its all about advertising..!!!

[BTB]

Hi Boombox...

An interesting post, thanks for your thoughts..

Essentially some of your comments really expose the nature of the problem... In the current global economy so many products available in stores around the world pass through Chinese (or other Asian) manufacturing facilities, that a judgement along "moral" lines is pretty difficult. For instance... do you know how much of the clothing available at big retailers here in S.A is entirely, or in part sourced direct from China? Latest estimates (in the Western Cape) put that figure at around 75% in certain national chains. Not to sound confrontational about it... but if the choice is walking around naked...?

Regarding the electronics industry... even if a particular product is not labelled as "made in China" I'll bet that at component or circuit board level one of these fabled 6 year old Asian "workers" has had a part to play on the assembly line. Don't get me wrong here... I am not unconcerned with issues of worker exploitation, it's an outrage that this form of slavery still exists in a modern world... but where is the line between fact and unfounded generalization? Unfortunately, the cold hard fact is that big international corporations "outsource" work to cheaper labour markets to boost their profit margins. "Outsource" of course being a pleasant euphemism for "exploit existing cheap labour conditions elsewhere while maintaining our politically correct image at home". In other words... (PLACE YOUR CHOSEN COMPANY NAME HERE)... doesn't roll into one of these Asian markets and in a fit of moral indignation insist on paying all their foreign workers the same wage they would pay in the U.S, Canada or U.K. that would defeat the purpose of setting up shop in a cheap labour market. So as I was joking earlier... if the choice is walking around naked...?

As for the purpose of my original post... I was very impressed with those Consonance products, both in terms of build & sound. Whether I end up buying them or not is seperate issue from this post, and clearly one I'll have to answer for, come judgement day! :twisted:

The point is that previous generations of audiophiles/consumers have experienced this exact phenomena of companies within a cheap (and therefore disrespected) labour market, waking up to the prospect of doing their own products as opposed to simply punching out products for internationals. SONY, now an accepted "player" in the worldwide consumer electronics industry had to overcome this exact type of prejudice way back when it was a fledgling company trying to compete on the global market. I guess now that it is the turn of a new generation to accept or reject potentially high quality products from China, I was just wondering if others had thought about this issue, and what their opinions were?

Lastly, it seems a consequence of our "westernised' viewpoint to assume that the people in these "foreign" countries don't know what it takes to be competative on the international market. It's not exactly like they have to look any further than their own factories to understand how the accepted "power" players put their gear together? :W

[Boombox]

For sure...BTB.......it ultimately means I'll have to walk around naked...and we all know from the Bible that those days are long, long, long gone.....so yes, practically every product we consume is "stained" in some form or other...

Back to your post on Chinese products....it is as you say, it comes down to what you would consider exceptional to your ears....

For me the experimentation road is difficult to chose. Audio equipment is expensive and one would love to know that there is a good support base for this product + the trade option is a stong consideration not to be overlooked before closing the deal....that said, I'm not discouraging you in your venture....

8 years back my mother bought a Daewoo, full house and dead cheap,.....a good car and it performed its job with great dignity. She drives a Clio now and it all came down to support of the product. Daewoo parts were hard to find + the dealers either moved or closed shop.

Let me know where you auditioned the equipment and I'll head there as well to have a listen.....

[r100gs]

I've taken the dive on a couple of Chinese products. No regrets so far. For the price, it was worth the experiment. Payment and shipping went well. If they blow up tomorrow, I will have no regrets. I have a Xindak DAC-3 which works ok, but does not blow me out of the water. I would only recommend it to someone with an older CD player. My second purchase was a Bada HD-22 cd player on which I've been highly impressed by sound quality, build quality and parts quality.