Kurosawa Koncept System

[meb46]

Very nice... but not at the expense of what I suspect to be many, many, many hours of labour intensive sanding! Awesome work, looking forward to some more photos with some drivers mounted!

[cochinada]

Sorry about my ignorance but why do we have a different coloration on the baffle?

[JonMarsh]

I think it has something to do with being covered by the midrange/tweeter plate ET mentioned, which is described in post #207 of this thread.

[5th element]

Those are looking very nice Jon, it appears that how impressive they appear is very reliant on the photo!

[Evil Twin]

Those are looking very nice Jon, it appears that how impressive they appear is very reliant on the photo!

Two factors-

the appearance is highly reliant on ambient light incidence- the work room they are in now has only one window, which faces to an out door area with a high fence and vegetation, so there is not much light that comes in naturally, except when the sun is low in the West in the late afternoon. This room is relatively dark, and the picture was taken without even the overhead light turned out.

Second, the cabinets have only been wet sanded to 1500 grit, using Red Label automotive wet/dry hook and loop 5" sanding disks.



now they need to be polished out with Megquires Ultimate Cutting compound, on Chemical Guys Hex Logic cutting pads (5" pad attached with hook and loop to 5" random orbital sander)



using the Meguire's Ultimate cutting compound (Renron approved).




Lighting is everything with an attempted piano black finish. It is a considerable amount of work, particularly when inexperience requires multiple do-overs. Even so, they are much closer to the expected/desired results than at some points in this effort I believed possible. Switching to an automotive acrylic lacquer gave me good reason to break out the 3M vapor mask, but also has been providing high grade results, with good hardening in a reasonable time.

[Evil Twin]

Sorry about my ignorance but why do we have a different coloration on the baffle?

The central part of the baffle between the upper and middle woofer will have a flame maple panel which is glued into place after the midrange mounting adapter is fixed to the cabinet. These were cut individually with each cabinet, so that there is perfect alignment of the midrange and tweeter pass through holes, and are numbered for each cabinet.


Bare wood:





And part way through the finishing process:

[Hdale85]

Just read the whole thread and WOW....those are incredible looking already. Any hints at what the cost of the ~500lbs worth of that wood was? It sure looks nice and solid lol.

[Evil Twin]

Just read the whole thread and WOW....those are incredible looking already. Any hints at what the cost of the ~500lbs worth of that wood was? It sure looks nice and solid lol.

The total for 5 sheets of 1-1/4" 59" long, by 22"wide, and 4 sheets of 1-1/2" 59" long by 22" wide was $2,175, plus $372 for freight shipping from the central USA warehouse to Bay Area California. This is Northern hard rock maple ply, and it is the highest quality wood based product I have ever worked with- they are fabricated for piano pin blocks, and adapted to this speaker construction. The dimensions happened to be most suitable to the target cabinet design. The completed cabinets empty can still be picked up by one such as myself, but just barely. With drivers loaded it will be quite another matter...

[Hdale85]

Ok, that's about what I figured the wood cost. Certainly way outside of my budget currently haha! But interesting stuff for sure!

[Navy Guy]

The total for 5 sheets of 1-1/4" 59" long, by 22"wide, and 4 sheets of 1-1/2" 59" long by 22" wide was $2,175, plus $372 for freight shipping from the central USA warehouse to Bay Area California. This is Northern hard rock maple ply, and it is the highest quality wood based product I have ever worked with- they are fabricated for piano pin blocks, and adapted to this speaker construction. The dimensions happened to be most suitable to the target cabinet design. The completed cabinets empty can still be picked up by one such as myself, but just barely. With drivers loaded it will be quite another matter...

Where did you source the wood?

[Evil Twin]

Piano showcase online- full name, Vanda King's Piano showcase online.

http://www.vandaking.com/s-563-pin-block-maple.html

[Evil Twin]

Polishing out has commenced

After some various trials on front facets, I decided to stay with the Ultra-Cut compound for the initial polish process following 1500grit, then I may follow up on most with the Ultimate compound material.

The results indicate that there is an actual possibility that the target finish for the design will be achieved, in spite of the lack of skill in the prime contractor.












I would also pass on the word to Ron, that although the Ultimate compound works well for general polishing of my helmet and armor, the Ultra-Cut compound seems to fare better and quicker with blaster splatter and burns.

[Hdale85]

Those are starting to look really good.

[BobEllis]

Nice!

[Navy Guy]

Very nice!

[cochinada]

That's what I call shiny! :T

[Evil Twin]

After all of the finishing mis-steps and issues, it is most encouraging to see a result that resembles the desired target- not perfection, perhaps, but personally quite satisfying.

For anyone who feels they suffer from hubris and need a little humbling, I can strongly recommend finishing a large cabinet in piano black, especially if one's past experience has primarily been wood finishing with conventional techniques on veneer and hardwood.

On the other hand, note the saying used by some, that if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. Building these cabinets with hard rock maple ply for a piano black finish amounts to cheating- trying to approach the same results with MDF would be a nightmare on many levels for many reasons.

[wkhanna]

cunningly effective strategy.
another exemplary example that one should never underestimate the power of the BARK FORCE

[dar47]

those eyes looks like he has manipulated plenty of unsuspecting souls, much like our dark lord!

[5th element]

Wow those are looking superb!

[fish fingers]

Looks stunning, no Sith Grade project this

[---k---]

Impressive results.

I'd love one of these days for someone to position their speakers next to a highend piano to see which has the higher gloss and reflectivity. I'm not so sure it is always going to be the original.

[jwanck11]

Your cabinets look spectacular! I did a piano finish on shelving I build and went to 3000grit before final polishing...

[Navy Guy]

Beautiful work! I wish I had the space and equipment for a professional spray setup. Rattle cans don't make things easy and are super difficult on large pieces.

[Evil Twin]

Beautiful work! I wish I had the space and equipment for a professional spray setup. Rattle cans don't make things easy and are super difficult on large pieces.

Yes, they are. The clear coat in this case was sourced and applied with Rattle Can™, as a measure of the desperation to get the specific results I wanted before the weather turned. A risky move, but based on a strategy to at least use an automotive type formulation in acrylic lacquer, purchased in bulk from an online retailer. The end result speaks for itself in both pictures and in person- even a Sith Lord gets lucky occasionally...

Now, the polishing out needs to be completed, and then begins the detail assembly work as well as finishing assembly of the crossovers - which will be done in a measured fashion with care.

These tasks may be somewhat delayed, as I am also in the process of developing and training a new apprentice...

[Navy Guy]

Yes, they are. The clear coat in this case was sourced and applied with Rattle Can[emoji769], as a measure of the desperation to get the specific results I wanted before the weather turned. A risky move, but based on a strategy to at least use an automotive type formulation in acrylic lacquer, purchased in bulk from an online retailer. The end result speaks for itself in both pictures and in person- even a Sith Lord gets lucky occasionally...

Now, the polishing out needs to be completed, and then begins the detail assembly work as well as finishing assembly of the crossovers - which will be done in a measured fashion with care.

These tasks may be somewhat delayed, as I am also in the process of developing and training a new apprentice...

Even more impressive then [emoji6]

[TEK]

How would you compare these to the Ardents when it comes to:
- cost of build (electronics parts)
- sound quality/signature
- bass responce
- requirements for room size (larger/smaller/same)
- placement requirements (closer to back wall or longer out in the room)

[Evil Twin]

Not a clear answer yet

How would you compare these to the Ardents when it comes to:
- cost of build (electronics parts)
- sound quality/signature
- bass responce
- requirements for room size (larger/smaller/same)
- placement requirements (closer to back wall or longer out in the room)

I cannot fully answer all of these questions, especially as I have yet to complete the assembly and test and listen to them. But I can give you some indications of how they compare in some regards...


Cost of build (electronics parts)

A partial total is available, based on billed cost or MSRP in the case of some items, which were purchased under special conditions and would not usually be available at as low a price. Including all drivers, crossover parts, and raw wood costs, but not including internal wiring, connectors, or cabinet wall damping material, or midrange sub enclosure, the total is $14,207.69 USD. This is about 42% more than for Jonmarsh's published numbers for the Isiris, and in the range of 2.8 times what I have seen posted for a typical Wavecor Ardent build.



Sound quality/signature

Only speculation is possible at this point. This design fully supports a time aligned Duelund crossover design, which only has one phase rotation of 180 degrees between 20Hz and 20kHz, and for which the drivers are always at any frequency in the same relatively phase. This is made possible by the Accuton Cell driver construction, with the acoustic origin in the mounting plane. Will this have a meaningful impact on the subjective performance? Only time will tell, but it is telling that Accuton is ONLY putting development resources for new drivers into the Cell concept, and the newest designs from European companies are heavily focused on these new drivers.

The driver distortion is very low, especially so for the AS190 woofers, and also 3rd harmonic for the 7140 Beryllium tweeters. So there is a clear objective improvement in that regard.

The design is a relatively tall source in the low frequencies, which also tends to make for a more uniform bass performance and lowers the impact of floor bounce irregularities in the upper bass and lower midrange. Perhaps the technological terror that this design and construction represents will have pay offs greater than those of the previous flawed and failed battle stations. Only time will tell...



Bass Response

Ponder that the Dai Katana uses six Wavecor passive radiators per cabinet of a diameter and travel that well match the two active woofers in the Wavecor Ardent. The front firing 3 eight inch woofers are very stiff, with very wide dispersion and well damped behavior. This is a promising combination, especially considering the nominal system sensitivity of ~90 dB/2.83VRMS. On the other side, the Dai Katana is flatter to it's lower cutoff of 30Hz, but will roll off faster below that. And this is claimed not just by simulation but a single test cabinet build with one woofer and two passive radiators.




Requirements for room size

Wavelengths of sound are not related to the size of the cabinet, but the frequency of the tone. Similarly, maintaining suitable ratios of direct to indirect sound and controlling comb filtering from early reflections is a function of the room size, not the speaker size. Larger is generally always better, and high ceilings are better than low ceilings, as Jonmarsh and Renron noted.

Granted, there are issues about having enough room to place the cabinets- these are not trivial matters, but in the end not so different from the Ardent. If Renron and Jonmarsh were using this positioning for their listening tests as well, then this appears to be close to a Cardas recommended setup, as regards the ratio of dimensions and positioning. Following this guide in too small a room may results in the speakers uncomfortably close to the listing position-




The Dai Katana's were originally conceived with a plan to use them in a room of about 10 meters by 13 meters, with a 4 meter ceiling.


Placement requirements


Cardas placement is very much recommended. Of course, other approaches could be taken, such as placing the rear of the cabinet within 2 feet of the front corners, and angling the cabinets to cross fire so as to minimize the side dispersion reflections on the side walls. even 45 degree angles might be preferred in this condition in a small room- the Ardents work better in a small room setup that way, too.

[TEK]

Thanks a lot for the information about this concept.

I'm, as well as a lot of others I would assume, awaiting the result of this concept build with great exitement!
However, at a cost close to 3 x the Wavecore Ardents I see that this is not a project to be taken on without quite some serious considerations. It still must be said that it looks very interesting. We mere mortal must just hope that the driver cost of these cell drivers are ponded down a bit as they get more available to the marked.
On commercial system in this range/this driver equipment I guess we're talking Marten Design Mingus Quintet type of speakers and above to find simular.

I'm following this build with interest, even if it might not be very likely that I will be able to put up a budget to carry a build of this cost.

[Evil Twin]

Work on this project has languished for far too long. It is clear that I need to have a discussion with the responsible parties about the proper motivation...

The original planned completion date of late October is long past. It is past time to do something about that...

[Navy Guy]

Looking forward to seeing this come to fruition.

[Zvu]

I see that midrange chamber is a thick PVC pipe that is terminated with a piece of plywood.

How will you cope with backwave and resonances ? I always thought that the best way to address problems such as these are heavily stuffed large volume midrange chamber or open back.

[TEK]

That is an interesting question for a high end system like this, probably also relevant for the Ardents.
If we look at B&W (seems to be a general perception that those are well designed) they have a "ball" shaped mid-tone chamber and a tweeter housing that is cone shaped.
Much of these concept is selected based upon reasearch done when creating the snailhouse shaped nautilus speakers - that has been an important source of inspiration to all the high-end nautilus speakers.
My point beeing that this are areas that at least B&W has put quite some efforts in. Not sure how other manufactured, like Wilson, Marten design and others are relating to this.

For this design it might be worth the efford to make some kind of shape, for example from the quidelines of building a diffusor, in the back of the mid-tone chamber.

[Zvu]

B&W doesn't use exactly a sphere because that would lead to one strong standing wave that can be quite a hassle to deal with. It has more of a teardrop shape inside and a rod conecting the driver with the back of the enclosure (tip of the teardrop) and it looks like it's there only for mounting purpose. Unlike metal rod, the bullitt shaped peace on the back of the magnet does seem like it has more than purely cosmetic role in the enclosure.



Larger diameter pipe with some diffusors combined with damping material inside could be used to mitigate backwave and resonances. It also looks like it can be achieved with Ikea wooden bowls and later machined to insert the cone shaped part. I have an idea or two. After all, midrange is the highlight of every loudspeaker and should be made best possible - especially in "take no prisoners" project such as this.

It goes without saying that the diffusor can't be mounted like shown on the B&W picture because of specific type of midrange driver used here. It just serves as a compass on what course to take.

[wkhanna]

a topic Laurence Dickie may know a thing or two about?

tapered tube loading

Reflex tapered tube loading

[Evil Twin]

First, I would note that the tube terminus is 1-1/2" of LBL, not "a piece of plywood".

2nd, the lining and stuffing materials and arrangement within that tube are quite important- in fact, though, I have more confidence in them than I do the driver, which had to be altered significantly...

Having tested that arrangement with a different midrange driver firing into the test tube, and instrumenting the results in several ways, (including detail analysis of the back EMF of the driver under impedance testing) I am reasonably confident that whatever shortcomings this system suffers from, it won't be the damping of the midrange enclosure...

[Zvu]

I'm glad to hear that. Lookin' forward to see measurements in speaker cabinets when everything is finished.

[Fdas]

double post

[Fdas]

Out of curiosity, is it possible to be objective about something like this that you've invested so much into [both monetarily and in the blood/sweat/force powers way]?

I mean how do you measure this project being a success, what metric will you use? And is it possible at the end you might be 'disappointed'? Or are you extremely certain in the performance and sound characteristics of this that it's actually very low risk?

Basically, how do you define success on a project of this level of time and monetary investment?

[Evil Twin]

You Gotta Have Faith...

Out of curiosity, is it possible to be objective about something like this that you've invested so much into [both monetarily and in the blood/sweat/force powers way]?

I mean how do you measure this project being a success, what metric will you use? And is it possible at the end you might be 'disappointed'? Or are you extremely certain in the performance and sound characteristics of this that it's actually very low risk?

Basically, how do you define success on a project of this level of time and monetary investment?

Objectivity is largely an illusion... in endeavors in human life, and certainly in the creative ones...


If I were concerned about the opinions of others, in this case I might not need to be objective myself- I have an associate who has listened to the Tidal Audio Akira at length at their factory with material we are both familiar with and can replicate here- if in his judgment they are even vaguely similar in capabilities and characteristics, then producing some facsimile of the experience at 1/13 the direct expense, plus a large portion of sweat equity, will likely have made the effort worthwhile.

OTOH, I am actually expecting to improve on some characteristics, knowing what I do about the LF alignment and devices in the Akira versus this implementation, and perhaps having an edge in crossover quality. OTOH, no diamond drivers...

And with the sensitivity of 90dB/2.83VRMS, I expect it will be equally satisfying with a custom class A 80W design as with the Halcro DM68's presently on hand to drive them.

This is above all a technology experiment, using drivers far better suited to a Duelund crossover transfer function than has been possible in the past. My past experience indicates lowering distortion generally provides welcome improvements in transparency and articulation- combined with a new milestone in cabinet characteristics and more recently generated insights about voicing for stereo reproduction, I expect the system to be very musically satisfying, even if the WAF factor is in negative numbers- the latter is not a matter for my concern.

[TEK]

WAF factor is in negative numbers- the latter is not a matter for my concern.

Negative? They are looking wonderful - how can the WAF be negative?

Really looking forward to see the assembled speakers :-)

[Fdas]

Objectivity is largely an illusion... in endeavors in human life, and certainly in the creative ones...


If I were concerned about the opinions of others, in this case I might not need to be objective myself- I have an associate who has listened to the Tidal Audio Akira at length at their factory with material we are both familiar with and can replicate here- if in his judgment they are even vaguely similar in capabilities and characteristics, then producing some facsimile of the experience at 1/13 the direct expense, plus a large portion of sweat equity, will likely have made the effort worthwhile.

OTOH, I am actually expecting to improve on some characteristics, knowing what I do about the LF alignment and devices in the Akira versus this implementation, and perhaps having an edge in crossover quality. OTOH, no diamond drivers...

And with the sensitivity of 90dB/2.83VRMS, I expect it will be equally satisfying with a custom class A 80W design as with the Halcro DM68's presently on hand to drive them.

This is above all a technology experiment, using drivers far better suited to a Duelund crossover transfer function than has been possible in the past. My past experience indicates lowering distortion generally provides welcome improvements in transparency and articulation- combined with a new milestone in cabinet characteristics and more recently generated insights about voicing for stereo reproduction, I expect the system to be very musically satisfying, even if the WAF factor is in negative numbers- the latter is not a matter for my concern.

Thank you for the response Dark Lord. I disagree with your comment about negative WAF. If i was fortunate enough to own these speakers [based on your renderings] I am 100% confident my wife would approve. They are beautiful. There is something special about something that has such a clear functional utility.

[Evil Twin]

Then I assure you you are a fortunate man... many others have passed on the information that Jonmarsh's Ardents are a sweet spot for size versus performance, but showing their spouse these technological terrors has produced emphatically negative responses.

It is similar to, no one wants a Death Star in their Stellar neighborhood...

[Fdas]

Then I assure you you are a fortunate man... many others have passed on the information that Jonmarsh's Ardents are a sweet spot for size versus performance, but showing their spouse these technological terrors has produced emphatically negative responses.

It is similar to, no one wants a Death Star in their Stellar neighborhood...

I am most fortunate to have an excellent spouse. Sadly I am less fortunate in that I don't have the speakers.

I think if I tried to make Statements or Statement II's she might object, but the Ardents and these speakers are gorgeous. Yes they may be somewhat large, but they are so attractive that I don't think it would be a problem. Although, another issue would be room placement. I don't have a proper room that these could fit in. There are many limitations for me not to own Ardents. My lack of skill to make them may be the most fundamental, but even if I could, it seems that placement of them would be a struggle for me.

[JonMarsh]

I am most fortunate to have an excellent spouse. Sadly I am less fortunate in that I don't have the speakers.

I think if I tried to make Statements or Statement II's she might object, but the Ardents and these speakers are gorgeous. Yes they may be somewhat large, but they are so attractive that I don't think it would be a problem. Although, another issue would be room placement. I don't have a proper room that these could fit in. There are many limitations for me not to own Ardents. My lack of skill to make them may be the most fundamental, but even if I could, it seems that placement of them would be a struggle for me.

Placement is important to get the most out of them- just listen to what Bob, Dar, and Ron say after I sweet talk them into an afternoon's experiment to set them up "right"...

The only other solution would be to develop what I would call a studio mount version- that is, one designed for flush wall positioning, at ear level or above. This is quite possible to do, and it could also easily handle that mythical center channel Ardent functionality... in this case, the woofers would flank the midrange/tweeter elements operating as a vertical set, and no baffle step compensation would be used. The interesting question would be the geometry of the whole thing- designed to set on a shelf? Flush the ceiling and tapered relative to the wall, aiming downwards? There are several possibilities. Now imagine the challenge if one did that with a dual AS190 system, just PR's on the sides... problem with the AS190 is that due to T/S parameters you need a largish enclosure- what I suspect these Dai Katana's are so large. Using the Wavecor Ardent driver set would make it easier, for certain. PR's optional.


Hmmm.