Time for some Ansonica - a new design for Jagman's theater

[cjd]

By request, this one's for Jagman.

Fronts (the Ansonica)
Max total height, 36"
Use the new Exodus Anarchy, to be a 2.5way TMM.

Surrounds (the Marsala):
Use what I learned on my own surrounds

Selected tweeter:
SB-Acoustics SB29RDC-C000-4

Though I don't know for sure how the Anarchy does as a midrange, we'll find out. I'm going to leave the baffle on my test box loose so I can swap it out for a different tweeter + midrange if I find I really don't like the midrange on the Anarchy. We'll see.

Some quick modeling suggests a box 8.5x15x34 with a 1.5" baffle and a port tuned to ~25Hz will work quite nicely (you can tune lower the less series impedance is in front of the woofers so we'll have to see where the crossover ends up). Going to slant this one. I think chamfers, and I'm pondering whether to go with the latest fad in the "Avalon" style...

More info here as things progress, as usual.

Box design and info:
2.5" diameter port should be ~12-13 inches long.
3" diameter port should be ~18" long
1x7.5" slot port should be ~18.5" long (equivalent to ~3.1" diameter)


Series Crossover:
Note: C5 should be 10uF not 12. I'll update the pic soon as I get the chance.


BOM:
Capacitors
25uF
16uF
14uF
10uF
4uF

(optional) 47uF

Inductors
1.2mH 14ga (.24ohm)
.39mH 14ga (.12ohm)

2.7mH 16ga (.60ohm)

.91mH 18ga (.40ohm)
.33mH 18ga (.26ohm)

(optional) .5mH 20ga

Resistors
8ohm
4ohm
2.5ohm

(optional 5ohm)

------------------------------------

Parallel Crossover:



BOM:
Capacitors
15uF
14uF
12uF
10uF
4.5uF

(optional) 47uF

Inductors
1.2mH 14ga (.24ohm)

3.6mH 16ga (.70ohm)
.3mH 16ga (.16ohm)

.36mH 18ga (.27ohm)

(optional) .5mH 20ga

Resistors
8ohm
4ohm
2.5ohm

(optional additional 8ohm)

Response:
Black is the series summed response, yellow is the parallel summed response.

Red/blue/pink are series individual driver response(s).

The dip at 3k is diffraction induced. This is measured without the chamfer, so that should get better.

This is with a LRC to flatten impedance, otherwise it peaks up to about 12ohm in the 1200Hz-ish range, phase gets up to ~+20deg and -30deg at 400Hz and 2200Hz respectively. So rather benign either way. Solidly above 4ohm all the way.

[dlneubec]

Sounds like a fun project, cjd. So this will be a diminuitive tower, with a slanted front baffle? I like the sound of it.

I'm not familiar with the Anarchy driver, I'll have to take a look at it.

[cjd]

Mains: Box design

Modeled box response with 1.5ohm series impedance in front of the mid-woofers.

Image not available

[JonMarsh]

By request, this one's for Jagman.

Fronts (the Ansonica)
Max total height, 36"
Use the new Exodus Anarchy, to be a 2.5way TMM.

Surrounds (the Marsala):
Use what I learned on my own surrounds

Selected tweeter:
SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-C000-4

Though I don't know for sure how the Anarchy does as a midrange, we'll find out. I'm going to leave the baffle on my test box loose so I can swap it out for a different tweeter + midrange if I find I really don't like the midrange on the Anarchy. We'll see.

Some quick modeling suggests a box 8.5x15x34 with a 1.5" baffle and a port tuned to ~25Hz will work quite nicely (you can tune lower the less series impedance is in front of the woofers so we'll have to see where the crossover ends up). Going to slant this one. I think chamfers, and I'm pondering whether to go with the latest fad in the "Avalon" style...

More info here as things progress, as usual.

Personally, I'd stay away from any faddish or trendy design stuff- causes no end of aggravation, and then next year, it's out of style anyway. :W

Well, interesting, adding series resistance- a more time honored technique than flux capacitors, for sure! Have you done any testing on these drivers yet? How does the distortion at moderate levels look, not just when you push them? They seem a good value, hope to see your results soon.

[cjd]

Nope. No info on the drivers yet but I'll see what I can get out of them. More specific distortion data would be my first foray into that arena, but never too late to start eh?

As for series resistance, it's going to happen no matter what you do unless you use no wire, and definitely no inductor. If there is none you can tune as low as ~20Hz (though 22Hz seems the sweet spot) in this box... for a 6.5" driver (er, I swear that's a 7"...)

Some quick thoughts on box, not sure... I can already see some things to change here... one thing at a time! Just sketching right now.

[JonMarsh]

Nope. No info on the drivers yet but I'll see what I can get out of them. More specific distortion data would be my first foray into that arena, but never too late to start eh?



Some quick thoughts on box, not sure...

I like it! Will be following this, especially to see how the drivers work out- if they're OK, knowing you, I'm pretty sure the design will be fine!

[cjd]

I like it! Will be following this, especially to see how the drivers work out- if they're OK, knowing you, I'm pretty sure the design will be fine!

thanks for the vote of confidence

I think the plain baffle makes the most sense as it's far and above the simplest construction and will make changing the baffle out to make room for a mid easier too. But the extra tilt may help align the tweeter both in the time domain and with the ear...

Maybe I should make these an omni tweeter... (top mounted) :twisted:

[---k---]

HEY! I thought we had talked him into In-Khans? What's up with this? :P

Interesting project. I hope that I'll be able to listen to them some day. (I don't think you've had your fill of listening to Damien Rice yet. :P)

[cjd]

Only a little bit of tweek on the baffle layout. The tweeter center should be 3.5" from the top, centered horizontally (before chamfer) with a 3/4" chamfer on the top and sides. I think box width goes up to 9" due to the size of these drivers, they're just over 7" diameter. Box height will remain at 34" (which will push it close to 36" with spikes). Tweeter to top mid-woofer C2C should be 7.5"

Roundover introduces less noise in the diffraction profile but takes a bigger roundover to manage similar control over diffraction - this nets < +/- 1dB, 3/4" roundover is out 2dB. And a little felt will control a lot of the hash.

I suspect final box tuning should target about 24Hz, with -3dB being at about 22Hz in-room. I'm not decided on whether to front or rear port at this stage.

[cjd]

welcome to HTGuide, where we spend more time derailed than on-topic. :P

It's fun, too.

This is tentatively running series-ish in the world of crossovers. Though I hardly trust the data I'm working with right now so... :P It's been too long since I did so much pre-work in sim to try to get a feel for drivers.

[cjd]

Oh, see, this isn't MY build anyhow.

I might have to go purple though...

And I'm thinking a hybrid translam style approach to get vertical stripe on the whole front baffle and top... Only need 10 "3/4" layers (18mm) and one 1/2 layer (12mm) I think...

Whooo. ok, my head is spinning. Too ambitious.

[JonMarsh]

Oh, see, this isn't MY build anyhow.

I might have to go purple though...

And I'm thinking a hybrid translam style approach to get vertical stripe on the whole front baffle and top... Only need 10 "3/4" layers (18mm) and one 1/2 layer (12mm) I think...

Whooo. ok, my head is spinning. Too ambitious.

Wow. Colorful. And I was just trying to get used to the Canary yellow speakers by "normalizing" them against something I'm familiar with, a Yellow NSX. Purple will take more work... Deep Purple?

I think we need Evil Twin to convince C that's the speaker configuration (we) HE wants to build.

The "chancellor" has "informed" me I'm to forget this proposal and discussion, that there IS another who has this task and vision- we all know who that is...

His suggestion is my command...

We now return this thread to your normally scheduled programming...

[---k---]

Oh, see, this isn't MY build anyhow.

I might have to go purple though...

And I'm thinking a hybrid translam style approach to get vertical stripe on the whole front baffle and top... Only need 10 "3/4" layers (18mm) and one 1/2 layer (12mm) I think...

Whooo. ok, my head is spinning. Too ambitious.

I didn't think Jagman was local to us? Who's building the boxes?

[cjd]

Proportioned up and stuff.



I plan to make the rear panel removable here, and for a more traditional construction the top would just be normal 3/4" thick.

Braces could (and may be) 1/2" - the lower one needs to support the port.

There's room in there for the Aurasound NSW2-326-8AT, should be able to do everything but route a through-hole on mine just in case... But I doubt it would be needed.

[cjd]

I didn't think Jagman was local to us? Who's building the boxes?

I have an intended recipient for these... I will, in this case, be building myself a pair.

[jagman]

I just saw this thread had been started . I read about the Anarchy's a few months back and have followed Kevin's circle at Audiocircle for nearly 8 years. I like his work ethic and wanted to give his new speaks a shot. There is a lot of potential and CJD definitely knows what he's doing. Anyways, my setup worked best having three equal towers under a 110" screen. This setup will be for HT and music... but I tend to watch movies more than I listen to music. Having a compact 2.5-way tower capable of good output has been my goal and I think these will allow that to happen. He is also designing 2-way pseudo omni surround similar to the one he designed and documented on this forum recently that uses Anarchy and the same tweeter. Ohh... and I'm not local. But, we have an arrangement to make up for that .

[jagman]

Looks good :T

[---k---]

CJD,
The box does look good. I think you're sketches make them look much bigger then they really are - maybe it is just me, but they look huge, but I know they are not.

Can you expand on why you are going with a 2.5 way? I think the Anarchy is a very capable driver and lends itself to it. But, to me it seems like it wouldn't be much more cost of effort to go to a 3-way. Maybe I'm wrong.

What are you planning on for a crossover point. Must be pretty low for that tweeter spacing.

[cjd]

I expect to cross ~1600Hz give or take.

For the surrounds there is no question but that they be 2-ways - though I suspect a 3-way variation could be done and since these are a very slight unknown I poked around to see if an option to easily move the mains to 3-way might exist - hedging my bets, really. I think the Anarchy lends itself to compact 3-way designs as well, but has the interesting option of being a 2 or 2.5-way. Same with the RS180 really, I find it a better woofer than midrange, but it does quite nicely in 2-way designs.

C

[numberoneoppa]

edit: deleted post, made a mistake.

[cjd]

Getting boxes done is going to be... interesting. Given that my garage is hanging out at ~20 degrees these days. . .

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, it's a little chillier where you live than for me- I'm just contending with mid 40's to low 50's, and that doesn't slow me down hardly at all!

[cjd]

It's actually too cold for me to use the table saw - it's not safe. So we'll see.

[cjd]

Well, I may be heading out this weekend to do some saw work, with temperatures expected to approach 40! Whee...

Haven't heard from Jagman recently on parts so who knows...

Also I think am going to switch the recommendation to the non-Neo version of the SB tweeter here - it can be crossed lower, and since the surrounds will need to be 2-way regardless I think it gives a bit more flexibility.

[JonMarsh]

(waveguide, waveguide, waveguide, waveguide, waveguide.....)

(softly whispered subliminal programming....)

[cjd]

I had considered a waveguide but I don't want to take that on without a nod of approval from Jagman whenever he shows up next. I just might have to hand carve it into the baffle, too... But I am not sure it will be needed. For some things a boring straight-forward approach works so well.

I'll spend some time tomorrow listening to these drivers raw. Very interesting, appears to be an inverted aluminum dust cap and a smooth cone, very dead for aluminum. Surround looks like it won't push all the way out to the rated xmax without making its presence known but we'll see if it loosens up a little with some use.

And, of course, there would still be no WG for the surrounds.

I will, however, be getting some parts shortly intended for some waveguide related experiments.

[cjd]

Wheeee....

First day with the table saw complete. Long chores mean I have to drill pilot holes for lamination some other day, then glue-up...

Baffles under way.

C

[aduljr]

I am interested to see how this turns out.

[cjd]

Whee. No pics yet, I'll try to remedy that.

Baffle lamination completed, and it's pointing to a shortfall in my tool set. I might have to snag me a planer... Though a little elbow grease and an orbital sander will probably work, or a belt sander (which I also do not own... yet...) Now, where would I store a planer... Any suggestions from the peanut gallery on which one to get?

I think this is going to prove a nice way to get the laminated layer look without the misery of complex shape routing, though it also could enable hybrid construction techniques to cut down on waste material as well. And, of course, since my basic box won't really be unusual in shape, it is easy to do a more traditional build-up.

[dlneubec]

Here is one option you might consider. When I did the laminated hardwood baffles for my BaSSlines, I took them over to a local hardwood mill and they simply ran them through their big sander. It sanded them perfectly flat on both sides. It cost me $25 total to have the two bass bin baffles and the separate MT baffles done. They did them while I waited. It sure saved me a bunch of time with much better results than I could have gotten with a belt sander and orbital sander (I don't have a planer either).

[cjd]

local isn't so local for me, but that's good to keep in mind. They're pretty flat already, but 1/32" unevenness is probably more than I'd want to attack with a sander by hand... will see.

[---k---]

Buy a planer!!! I once read that the DeWalt's were nice.

Once you get it, let me know. I might have a use for it.

[---k---]

Did you get that planer yet?

I picked up a nice piece of 1-1/4" thick Lyptus. It looks flat, but it has a little bit of cupping. I'm hoping that once I chop it into 16" lengths that it won't be too bad, but a planer would make quick work of it.

[cjd]

Heh. No, I haven't. Let's see how things go...

[HareBrained]

Unless it's a very good planer, plane before you cut to size. Infeed and outfeed rollers can cause the board to tilt up into the blades causing more material to be removed on the first and last 6". When both rollers are on the board, the thickness is consistent.

[cjd]

Baffles sanded smooth in no time at all with an orbital sander and 60 grit. I got them plenty close to flat on glue-up.



C

[evilskillit]

Lookin good, cant wait to see where this goes.

[---k---]

That's what I guessed you did. I've had that same thought in the past. I almost did it with my steel tube speakers. So how thick is that? 2"?

[cjd]

1.5" - I want this to be easy baffle thickness for folks not wanting to go the crazy laminated route

The Jig:



First holes were drilled and direction marked, in the spot you see the pin here. I then drilled through the jig, nailed the pin in (you can just make out the nail sticking out, easy to remove for future use...) and then did the second hole with the first over the pin. Perfect alignment. Easy. Soooo glad I have a drill press now.

C

[cjd]

Today was spent fiddling with getting the laptop doing measurements and ended in a pass at doing some distortion measurements on the Anarchy. I have no idea if I got it right or not.

Anarchy thread

Post with graph

[cjd]

I have measurements for the Marsala... Time for some crossover fiddling.

This tweeter can take a beating... before I fixed the amp, I accidentally bumped the amp case with the + cable from the tweeter while the - was plugged in... nice blue spark, nice pop out of the tweeter...

[---k---]

I have measurements for the Marsala... Time for some crossover fiddling.

This tweeter can take a beating... before I fixed the amp, I accidentally bumped the amp case with the + cable from the tweeter while the - was plugged in... nice blue spark, nice pop out of the tweeter...

I know that sound!

[cjd]

Whoops. Evidently I failed to save the tweeter impedance data!

That said, a little faking and a little fiddling and things are looking quite promising. Interestingly, it appears the crossover can be tuned for better performance with a more on-axis setup, or better performance for way off-axis, just by flipping the tweeter polarity. On-axis preference starts to droop slightly (think BBC droop) through about 45 degrees off-axis, and goes to hell after that. Off-axis is good through ~30 degrees up/down based on being on-axis with the woofer, goes to hell on-axis with the tweeter. I bet what I'm using is like that too, I just didn't take as many measurements way off-axis below.

C

[cjd]

The Marsala

TM in the same box I build my surrounds in. The one thing that should not change is the spacing between the tweeter and mid-woofer and the angle (45 degrees). The box can be made a little wider, and can be made taller on the tweeter side, with less ill effect - thus, one can tune the box a little.



Response pictured here is at the 45 degree (on-axis with mid-woofer, 45 degrees off-axis from tweeter. 30 degrees is very similar. This is a gated measurement, ignore anything below ~500Hz. See the nearfield stuff I posted in the Anarchy thread to see where this box leaves F3 (about 60Hz), etc.



If you plan to listen closer to 45 degrees (or greater) off-axis from the tweeter, REVERSE POLARITY ON THE TWEETER. If you expect to be mostly above-axis, keep the polarity the same. At 45 degrees it's VERY close, with reversed having slightly better response. SPL is a bit off, probably ~5dB too high.

Impedance is pretty benign.



The proposed crossover - this has NOT been given any ear time yet, so this is not final. Inductors are all Jantzen 18ga for impedance since PE has those listed in a nice chart making it easy, anything close will do. If you want to use a slightly more traditional notch, add a 60ohm resistor in parallel with the LC (.3mH/4uF) ...

[cjd]

On axis to off-axis, tweeter polarity as in crossover diagram above:





Here, we flip the polarity of the tweeter, same off-axis as above: