Anarchy 6.5''

[Mark K]

I'm a little bit curious about these. Anybody want to send me a pair to test?

[Rick Craig]

I should clarify that I'd use this as a midrange, not a woofer, so I only need it to go down to say 250-350Hz.

I remember reading something about a 3rd party Klippel test in an industry trade magazine - has that been published yet?

I used a Scan-Speak 7" open baffle in that range without a problem so I think the Anarchy would be fine. The real advantage here is keeping Bl constant over a long excursion. As a mid that doesn't really add much (if any) performance value provided the crossover point and slope minimize the driver's excursion. The XBL motors (from what I've observed) seem to have a little lower sensitivity as well which may be an issue depending on what your system target is.

The Voice Coil tests haven't been published yet. I subscribe as well as a few other guys here so I'm sure someone will report back on that.

[Saurav]

Thanks, so it looks like it could be a contender. I'll keep an eye out for more details to surface. My speakers will be fully active and I currently have 60WPC for this channel, which I think should be enough even with it's low sensitivity (it's a small room, and listening distance is about 8').

[Bear]

The Voice Coil tests haven't been published yet. I subscribe as well as a few other guys here so I'm sure someone will report back on that.

Looks like we will have to wait a month unless ED's alias is Wavecor or Rechhorn.

[Rick Craig]

Looks like we will have to wait a month unless ED's alias is Wavecor or Rechhorn.

Yep, the new one arrived today. :T

[Kevin Haskins]

Lots of stuff since I visited last.

Quickly.... we design all woofers so that Cms stiffens as the driver goes into overload. Typically... we aim for x2-x3 the Cms stiffness at Xmax as you would see at rest.

XBL^2 really has no influence on efficiency. I guess it can... if you open up the gap a little for a long-throw driver in order to avoid rub/buzz issues but there is nothing about XBL^2 that inherently makes it so that you cannot design a high-efficiency driver. You just keep adding B or L until you get what you want. You don't see those types of designs in a midwoofer because I'm trying to utilize the stroke and pick up bandwidth while trying to keep the box requirements small. That is what determined the efficiency of the Anarchy. If I wanted 92dB/1W/1M I could get it easily and still be using an XBL^2 motor.

In terms of hype and XBL^2.... I guess I can understand that. It really is just a tool to achieve something. If you want flat BL with stroke there are other ways to achieve it too so XBL^2 isn't the only game in town. It is cheaper and easier than other methods and the manufacturing requirements are easier to accomplish. It doesn't take much skill to cut a couple rebates in a pole and a couple pieces of steel. But there is a lot more to a driver than just the motor. The motor is one part of the puzzle. The suspension is another and then the Le profile is yet another. Then you have the soft-part behavior and how it goes into break-up. Then the choice of parameters and how that fits your application. So... you twiddle all of those things with the tools at your disposal and try to hit a price point and find a vendor that can make them in small quantity. That is the challenge (and part of the fun) from my standpoint. It is a process of juggling a lot of variables and choosing which are most important for a given application.

Vance finished the testing but it is scheduled for the March issue of VC.

[cjd]

I have repeated the measurements with essentially the same results... I'm not sure I have calibration correct yet though. This is why I hate measuring.

[LING GOWA]

I thought one of the big selling points of these was that they were going to be under 50 bucks. I see that they are $65.00 USD. Hmm..too bad.

[Carl V]

I thought one of the big selling points of these was that they were going to be under 50 bucks. I see that they are $65.00 USD. Hmm..too bad.

It's all a matter of personal opinon
but is there really that much of a
difference between $50 & $65 in the
big scheme of things? Value is always
subjective. Kevin seems to offering
a driver at a fair price which offers
good value. Just my thoughts.

[evilskillit]

Kevin said that the first few runs would be at a reduced price just to get some units out there and get some interest, but that he would not be able to sell them for effectively no profit forever.

The first run was $40 each, the next run was like $50 or $55 and I guess the final selling price is $65. Which, while a little higher is still less than something like the Seas ER18RNX or something. How does it compare? I don't know but if you need a lot of displacement each one of these displaces 2x as much as a 7" Dayton Reference or comparable Seas unit, and takes up half as much baffle room. So at that point they still offer a pretty good value. As nice a vlue as they did at $40? No but I think expecting it to stay at that price might have been a bit unrealistic You could always try the TangBand long stroke 6.5". It's a bit less and has as much stroke but I've heard the response isn't nearly as flat and distortion isn't nearly as low, basically while nice its a lesser driver in every way.

Another one of it's closest competitors is the CSS SDX7.

http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SDX7

Which is over $100 each.

[cjd]

Well well... I'll have to try this again. I found a short between the transformer in the amp I was using, and the case... eep! No idea how I didn't blow something up till now. I found it while installing an attenuator into this amp and tracing a nice little hum that showed up. It's not 100% hum free still, unfortunately, so I'll probably be seeking a new amp to use for pulling measurements.

Mean time, we'll see if $65 is worth it. I think it delivers a unique set of parameters in how low it will go in how small a box... the question still remains if it can adequately cover up high enough at the same time, but my listening still suggests it is possible.

[cjd]

No major changes in results to report, though the short I found in my amp explains the 120Hz blip

I'm a little worried about the 2nd order peak around 1.5kHz though it stays -50dB...

[LING GOWA]

I'm sorry, I had the price wrong. It is $69.95.

[Rick Craig]

Driver pricing often has no correlation with cost. Part of the issue is how long the supplier predicts it will take to recoup his investment. His cost may be fairly low but if he has to hold the inventory for a long period of time that must be a consideration. Price it too low and some may think it's a cheap product, up the price and then DIY's get upset about it being a ripoff. The market also tends to change and what's popular today may be out-of-style a year from now.

[cjd]

At $70 I still think these fit a niche pretty darned well - in fact, they do some things really well that are unusual, namely reaching low in a smaller box, especially for a 180mm driver.

C

[Rick Craig]

At $70 I still think these fit a niche pretty darned well - in fact, they do some things really well that are unusual, namely reaching low in a smaller box, especially for a 180mm driver.

C

Right - the best way to look at the pricing is compare it to other 7" drivers and then determine if you think it's a good value. I salute Kevin for being willing to send off his driver for a Klippel test. I've seen some of his competitors balk at doing that. Perhaps they have something to hide?

[Kevin Haskins]

Yea... price had to go up for a couple reasons. First... I have to make enough money to order the next production run. Second... my distributor in Europe and Australia wanted to sell them and I didn't have enough margin for them. So... compromises had to be made.

[A9X]

Second... my distributor in Europe and Australia wanted to sell them and I didn't have enough margin for them. So... compromises had to be made.

Does that mean some will be coming to Oz sometime via Audiomarketplace?

[Rick Craig]

Looks like I have someone sending me the Anarchy! I'll do some nearfield bass tests and response testing for possible tweeter combinations.

[cjd]

Looking forward to your analysis. It's sounding pretty good in the "surround" application I worked up though I don't have a proper crossover (just close as I could get with parts on hand) nor a stereo pair...

[Rick Craig]

Just received the Anarchy woofer today. Very nice build quality, much better than the XBL woofers from Adire and GR. Looking forward to testing! :T

[Rick Craig]

Klippel tests have arrived with the new Voice Coil magazine!

[Kevin Haskins]

Klippel tests have arrived with the new Voice Coil magazine!

Yes... and it is spot on. I Klippeled those drivers before shipping them for the review. The FR/Z & T/S are all close enough to our measurements. The differences are in measurement technique. The distortion measurements are done near-field in a room.... arg. I'd rather they didn't do distortion measurements at all rather than publishing noise. At that drive level it should be >40dB down and closer to 50dB down across the bandwidth. Other than the that.... looks good.

I'll have to take a speaker over to the chamber when I get a chance and get some good distortion measurements at 90dB/1M, 96dB/1M, & 102dB/1M. The THD and scaling with output is informative.

[Shonver]

Klippel tests have arrived with the new Voice Coil magazine!

Would you mind telling us the salient points of the report?

[Rick Craig]

Would you mind telling us the salient points of the report?

Overall good performance - high output capability, and the factory parameters were accurate. The excursion is somewhat limited by the motor but still 8.5mm at the 10% distortion benchmark that is used for the Klippel test. This is very good excursion for a 7" - for example the Dayton RS180 is less than half of that.

There was some change in inductance from x-max out to x-max in but I'm not sure how that would relate to real-world performance. The breakup peak is at 4K.

I just started testing on today and it's -3db @39hz / -10db@29hz in a ported .75 cubic ft. Parts Express cabinet. The crossover is somewhat of a challenge but I managed to smooth it out with six components.

[Kevin Haskins]

Overall good performance - high output capability, and the factory parameters were accurate. The excursion is somewhat limited by the motor but still 8.5mm at the 10% distortion benchmark that is used for the Klippel test. This is very good excursion for a 7" - for example the Dayton RS180 is less than half of that.

There was some change in inductance from x-max out to x-max in but I'm not sure how that would relate to real-world performance. The breakup peak is at 4K.

I just started testing on today and it's -3db @39hz / -10db@29hz in a ported .75 cubic ft. Parts Express cabinet. The crossover is somewhat of a challenge but I managed to smooth it out with six components.

Basically.... the Le non-linearity is worth chasing and solving at higher frequencies. It is important in a midrange, full-range or tweeter but it didn't contribute enough to the non-linear behavior at the frequencies we designed around to be worth "solving". Of course I didn't intend this woofer as a DIY product or I probably would have thrown a shorting ring in the rear and made the Klippel look pretty. It has zero audible consequences < 3Khz.

The suspension non-linearity is all in the surround. We could have solved that too if I'd tooled a new surround but once again.... it just made a pretty Klippel and I'm not convinced it would make any audible improvement doing so. Once you put it in a box you have a non-linear air-spring anyway so sometimes we end up chasing things in the measurement that don't have any implication on the actual sound quality.

[Mazeroth]

Any more updates on this driver?

[---k---]

CJD's Ansonica sounded pretty good using them. Monster bass for a 6.5" driver.

[Rick Craig]

Any more updates on this driver?

I designed a 2-way for it. Feel free to ask questions.

[Ray_D]

RS180 Distortion

Overall good performance - high output capability, and the factory parameters were accurate. The excursion is somewhat limited by the motor but still 8.5mm at the 10% distortion benchmark that is used for the Klippel test. This is very good excursion for a 7" - for example the Dayton RS180 is less than half of that.

I don't understand how 10% distortion can be a meaningful benchmark. I can't imagine that anyone here would think that acceptable.

I have seen several tests which imply distortion below 1% at excursions you are quoting for the RS 180.

Can you reconcile this? Is Klippel testing done that much differently than Zaph and MarkK, for example? Is this done at a single frequency?

Ray

[NyxOne]

I don't understand how 10% distortion can be a meaningful benchmark. I can't imagine that anyone here would think that acceptable.

I have seen several tests which imply distortion below 1% at excursions you are quoting for the RS 180.

Can you reconcile this? Is Klippel testing done that much differently than Zaph and MarkK, for example? Is this done at a single frequency?

Ray

Maybe I don't understand your statement correctly but just to be sure :
XMAX is supposed to be when the driver hit 10% THD although this parameter is not always measurement or expressed the same way among manufacturer.

Eg : RS-180 10% THD would happen around 6mm (Xmax).

Please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong!

Chuck

[Rick Craig]

I don't understand how 10% distortion can be a meaningful benchmark. I can't imagine that anyone here would think that acceptable.

I have seen several tests which imply distortion below 1% at excursions you are quoting for the RS 180.

Can you reconcile this? Is Klippel testing done that much differently than Zaph and MarkK, for example? Is this done at a single frequency?

Ray

The 10% figure relates to distortion from motor or suspension issues versus excursion. You can visit the Klippel site for further explanation.

[Mark K]

I don't understand how 10% distortion can be a meaningful benchmark. I can't imagine that anyone here would think that acceptable.

I have seen several tests which imply distortion below 1% at excursions you are quoting for the RS 180.

Can you reconcile this? Is Klippel testing done that much differently than Zaph and MarkK, for example? Is this done at a single frequency?

Ray

Hi Ray,

This is a pretty standard way Xmax is defined. It's good for a comparison between drivers. Now I know this number seems high, and it is in a way it is.

10% equates to the distortion product being only 20dB lower than the fundamental. Now the usual pattern would be either 2nd or 3rd order products dominating. In a 2 way, the 6inch woofer would actually sound "richer" because of this. It's part of the psychoacoustic trick that makes two ways sound like they have more bass than they really have.

If you actually look at the distortion a typical two way suffers from in the bass regions when you crank it a bit, well, you can see why folks generally migrate to three ways or subs.

The problem with the xmax figure is that it's usually based on THD, which is not all that helpful of a parameter, except is a crude way. You'd like to see the spectrum of distortion products. How much higher order stuff is coming out of the driver when pushed.

I suspect the Anarchy would test pretty well, but have not had a pair to play with.

hope that helps.

mark

[Ray_D]

More on distortion

Thanks for the reply Mark. Your web site has long been a gold mine for me.

I thought Xmax was usually defined based on physical parameters, my mistake. I know there is sometimes confusion as to whether half or full.

The distortion data are usually presented at one drive level. I've long wondered how this would change at lower levels. I presume it is not linear and that different drivers behave differently.

From the data on Zaph's site, the distortion is never less than 40 db down including at very low frequencies where the excursion is presumably approaching Xmax, although I have not actually figured the actual implied excursion.

I built a version of your RS225/RS28A and thought it was maybe the best two way I've built. It was at least as good as the NatP's I built. I've wondered why that was, maybe the low crossover point as they were crossed at 1250 Hz.

Thanks again for your contributions to DIY.

Ray

[Mark K]

Thanks for the reply Mark. Your web site has long been a gold mine for me.

I thought Xmax was usually defined based on physical parameters, my mistake. I know there is sometimes confusion as to whether half or full.

The distortion data are usually presented at one drive level. I've long wondered how this would change at lower levels. I presume it is not linear and that different drivers behave differently.

From the data on Zaph's site, the distortion is never less than 40 db down including at very low frequencies where the excursion is presumably approaching Xmax, although I have not actually figured the actual implied excursion.

I built a version of your RS225/RS28A and thought it was maybe the best two way I've built. It was at least as good as the NatP's I built. I've wondered why that was, maybe the low crossover point as they were crossed at 1250 Hz.

Thanks again for your contributions to DIY.

Ray

Hi Ray,

The actual definition is a bit fuzzy. You can look at mechanical Xmax, but Xmax is really defined differently. The document that defines is is an AES standard, part of the standards document AES 2-1984,

"AES Recommended Practice Specifications of Loudspeaker Components Used in Professional Audio and Sound Reinforcement"

Like you really want to read it. It's available from the AES or you can google it if you look hard enough. I would link to it, but I found it from an .ru domain. Bad juju-Thomas would frown and the free world would collapse.

Anyway, the exact definition is "Voice-coil peak displacement at which the "linearity" of the motor deviates by 10%. Linearity may be measured by percent distortion of the input current or by percent deviation of displacement versus input current..."

This can be interpreted in a couple of different ways, so you have to be careful not to compare Xmax results from different manufacturers.

[SpeakerGuy]

Check out this stellar review of a commercial speaker using the Anarchy woofer: http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/bluecircle_bm2.htm

"The BM2 sounded weighty enough that no music lover should even consider adding a subwoofer"

(AFAIK this speaker is no longer being produced, so I think I'm not breaking an forum rules by pointing out a commercial speaker? Also, I am not affiliated with Blue Circle.)

[Rick Craig]

Check out this stellar review of a commercial speaker using the Anarchy woofer: http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/bluecircle_bm2.htm

"The BM2 sounded weighty enough that no music lover should even consider adding a subwoofer"

(AFAIK this speaker is no longer being produced, so I think I'm not breaking an forum rules by pointing out a commercial speaker? Also, I am not affiliated with Blue Circle.)

That's not the Anarchy driver.

[Kevin Haskins]

Rick is right... that is not an Anarchy.

Mark is right too. Xmax is one of those "fuzzy" parameters and it has had a couple different definitions. I use the 30% point down on the BL curve from the simulation. Why not the Klippel? Because the Klippel isn't always as clear. It is also difficult to get perfect centering on the coil in production. You pretty much can have +/- 1mm differences so the measurement isn't as pretty as the simulation which gives you a nice pretty point on a graph to point at.

Also... that tells you nothing about the suspension. It is limited information but one that most people expect to see and one they judge output based upon (it is simple to figure Vd from Xmax & Sd).

[NyxOne]

Exodus Anarchy tested by Zaph

In case you've missed it :




Reference (he also tested some buyout)

Chuck

[Dougie Fresh]

Keep me in the loop

If the Anarchy's are re-made, I'd like to re-order. :T