Ardent Speaker Camp

[Dennis H]

Brandon's HD measurement of the TD15X on his large open baffle. The level is set to 100dB at 30" and then the mic moved in to 15" for the measurement.

The way I understand it, the H, S and X series all have the same motor except different voice coils to get the TS parameters. The M series has a short underhung motor and an accordian surround to eliminate a midrange surround resonance. It's excellent above 70-80Hz but not so good down really low.



Edit: here's the TD12M.

[A9X]

The AE M series drivers also have a different cone profile (curvilinear) and accordion surround.

[mkc]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the measurements. I have to find time to get my version build.

Best regards,
Mogens

[JonW]

Yeah, the only real drawback of the 10's (like the 28W/8867) (besides the cost) are the largish enclosures required for deep extension. I don't remember if I tried modeling dual 8867, but I think off the cuff you'd want north of 140 L- I should double check that just to be sure. I was hoping to avoid a box that size, but the 10's do work up pretty smooth to 1 kHz, enough to work OK with a Duelund alignment.

Dual 10s would be amazing. Even 1 sounds great IMO but you need more power to run it. Power is cheap these days. The Scan Speak 26W Revelators are the best I've tested. You can see those results on my website in the tests section. The Excel W26FX is very good as well. I might try the Nextel version at some point because it is more efficient. But as Jon alluded about some other design parameters, the limitation will be a larger box to get the extension below 30hz.

Thanks fellas. So with 2 x 10” SS woofers would you go sealed or ported? Sounds like Jon prefers sealed.

If I were to spend the $ on 4 of these drivers I doubt I’d let myself compromise the performance by going to a smaller box. I’d probably have to make it a 2 cabinet design, with the MT as one box and the two W’s in another. Otherwise I can’t see how it would be feasible to build and move such a large, heavy assembly around, up and down from the work bench, etc. So far I can’t come up with a 2 box design that would be pretty to look at like, say, the Ardents. More thinking to follow.

Hmmm, maybe a 6600 up top, a mid still to be determined, and the 2 x 10” on the bottom. Well, as we all are aware, ideas for fun projects like this come up much faster than we can get the time to build them.

[Jed]

Thanks fellas. So with 2 x 10” SS woofers would you go sealed or ported? Sounds like Jon prefers sealed.

.

The 10s work well in about 65L each. Could go bigger to get more extension. As for sealed vs ported... I'd go ported if you have the room and don't feel like running a subwoofer.

You could also run the 4 ohm version to pick up 3dbs versus the 8 ohm woofer. It'll require half the box volume vs a pair.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, that's about what I recall estimating previously- and my first pass LF sim for dual Eton 12-680 was about 70 L per driver- not that far off! But a shorter throw 12/13" woofer. Might be the SS would work better, me thinks. And for a few less shekels.

[Jed]

Yeah, that's about what I recall estimating previously- and my first pass LF sim for dual Eton 12-680 was about 70 L per driver- not that far off! But a shorter throw 12/13" woofer. Might be the SS would work better, me thinks. And for a few less shekels.

Speaking of Eton... what a huge disappointment that they made no effort to improve their motors in the latest line of drivers. The cast frame has better ventilation but that's about it. I waited years for them to come out with new drivers, and that's what they could come up with? Com'mon Eton! I'm sure there is a market for the fancy custom Etons that Avalon has made for them.

[SoundOfNothing]

Speaking of Eton... what a huge disappointment that they made no effort to improve their motors in the latest line of drivers. The cast frame has better ventilation but that's about it. I waited years for them to come out with new drivers, and that's what they could come up with? Com'mon Eton! I'm sure there is a market for the fancy custom Etons that Avalon has made for them.

I know what you mean, but Im beginning to think that they didnt want to deviate from the Eton "house" sound, meaning if they cleaned up the distortion via a motor redesign, the added warmth/signature wouldnt be there.

[JonMarsh]

Well, they make "special" drivers for some customers- like Avalon, with modified underhung motors and neodymium magnets, but they don't sell those into the DIY channel.

[Jed]

Well, they make "special" drivers for some customers- like Avalon, with modified underhung motors and neodymium magnets, but they don't sell those into the DIY channel.

Yeah, and unfortunately I'd have to buy 200 or more them. That's usually how it goes to get a custom driver made.

[dlneubec]

Jon,

Here is a look at the Lambda TD12H in Woofer Box and Circuit Designer v4.31, using their published specs. I tried to approximate the kind of tuning you use and your numbers for Qa, Ql and Qp. The cabinet is up to 65 liters here. Shown is an input of 200w, netting about 116db.

Edit: I forgot to mention before, that in addition to the standard models, they also offer an "Apollo" upgrade which adds 2 more aluminum faraday rings
outsid the voice coil. I don't know what the upgrade cost for that option is.

[JonMarsh]

Interesting. I've dug in a bit more on their site, and registered an account; the TD12H may be interesting way to go, I'll need to model it for a vented design, two drivers, next, in 140 L. Larger than I want to go, but I'll check it out.

[JoshK]

They have 10" versions too, i.e. TD10H. They are working on 8" models, but that is probably still vaporware.

[JonW]

Yeah, that's about what I recall estimating previously- and my first pass LF sim for dual Eton 12-680 was about 70 L per driver- not that far off! But a shorter throw 12/13" woofer. Might be the SS would work better, me thinks. And for a few less shekels.

The 10s work well in about 65L each. Could go bigger to get more extension. As for sealed vs ported... I'd go ported if you have the room and don't feel like running a subwoofer.

You could also run the 4 ohm version to pick up 3dbs versus the 8 ohm woofer. It'll require half the box volume vs a pair.

Thanks. Yeah, the idea is to make a good 3 way that will be all you need for music without a sub. Well, that’s the idea, at least.

The Etons are even more expensive than the SS? E gad.

Ah, so many project ideas, so little time. Do you guys have any free time you want to send my way?

[JonMarsh]

Thanks. Yeah, the idea is to make a good 3 way that will be all you need for music without a sub. Well, that’s the idea, at least.

The Etons are even more expensive than the SS? E gad.

Ah, so many project ideas, so little time. Do you guys have any free time you want to send my way?

Hmmmm, free time, sure could use some of that myself- and with no significant other, and my daughter more or less grown up, I shouldn't have anything to complain about- other than my job, and the fact that I let my ambitions for DIY projects get carried away...

I'm going to take the advice of others in this thread and look at the AE options closely... could save me almost half the cost in drivers, and have something pretty good. Particularly will look closely at the TD10S, though my initial gut reaction is a little disbelieving of 14 mm Xmax coupled with 90 dB efficiency, even though BL product is high.

A pass through Unibox may give me enough courage to order some. :W

[penngray]

They have 10" versions too, i.e. TD10H. They are working on 8" models, but that is probably still vaporware.

I believe John @ AE is working on 6.5" versions actually.

Here is the thread

https://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1705&p=5272#p5272

Last I checked, John was waiting on coil samples.

[penngray]

Particularly will look closely at the TD10S, though my initial gut reaction is a little disbelieving of 14 mm Xmax coupled with 90 dB efficiency, even though BL product is high.

I have TD12S and I love them. I also think Curt C has built speakers using them.

[TacoD]

Thanks. Yeah, the idea is to make a good 3 way that will be all you need for music without a sub. Well, that’s the idea, at least.

The Etons are even more expensive than the SS? E gad.

Ah, so many project ideas, so little time. Do you guys have any free time you want to send my way?

I worked both with the Eton 12" and Scanspeak 10". I think both woofers offer great performance, the 10" will also work in a closed box. I was also thinking of upgrading my bas bin from 1x SS 10" SS to 2x SS 10", but I do not need the extra ouput. BTW in my bass bin I replaced an Eton 11" with Scanspeak 10" as I think the Eton 11" is not great at all. The Eton 12" is much better than the 11".

If you like the hexa cone and you would some custom options (better motor). Then I would try the new Audiotechnology woofers (somewhere down the road I plan to use those). From all woofers I used Audiotechnology & Focal Audiom have the best fit and finish.

Image not available

Image not available


More info @
Audiotechnology

[PhilDSP]

Once I figure out the exact values I want to settle on (using other resistors to test), I'll probably go with some Duelunds from Parts Connexion in Canada- not that much money at this point.

It would be hard to offer an opinion about the effect of the ESA and MR's without substituting and comparing, but the midrange and high frequency presentation are much to my liking, and others- hence, ColoradoTom's comments:



For anyone considering "boutique caps", I'd strongly recommend they read the Clarity white paper. Anyone with an engineering and psych bent will appreciate the way they used a university for independent research on audibility and manufacturing related factors contributing to the sound. I personally am of the opinion that anything which contributes to strong imaging perception is doing the "right thing", as imaging is an internal brain construct made possible when the ear here's that which sounds like the real thing; particularly in regards to rendering an acoustic space.

Clarity White Paper PDF

Interesting! Last week I made my final decision for the caps and inductors for my 4 way crossover and purchased these caps:

Clarity MR for the NeoCD 2.0 and RD75 filters (4K and 600 Hertz), ganged Auricaps for the SB Acoustics 5" (150 and 600 Hertz) and ganged Clarity ESA's for the SS 25W/8567-SE pair (150 Hertz)

Though to lessen the shock of the initial cash outlay I substituted Clarity PX's for the high uF shunt capacitors and will upgrade to ESA and Auricap when finances permit. All of the caps are pretty hefty in size (and won't fit in the cabinet area I designed in the prototype unfortunately) I'll post some pictures of the caps when I get a chance.

Inductors will be very heavy gauge Mundorf Air Core Copper Foil types which aren't radically expensive if you purchase them from a dealer in Germany. According to one independent European study they have enormously less resonance than wire inductors no matter how they are treated, especially above 300 Hertz.

[Face]

Just curious, why do you plan on mixing ESA's and Auricaps?

[PhilDSP]

Old-school-guy sez, if 8" is good, 12" is better and 15" is better yet. :B Plenty of 15" pro-style drivers (and especially those from AE) are good up into the lower midrange.

Hmmm, I considered the Madisound/Aurasound 12" for my project but the 10" SS actually beat it in low end extension and power handling when I plugged the parameters into the cabinet simulator. And there was no contest at all for group delay. The much higher mass and induction of the 12" driver made it look like a tub of lard :lol:

But to give the Aurasound credit, no other driver of any size I could find came near its performance besides the SS.

[PhilDSP]

Just curious, why do you plan on mixing ESA's and Auricaps?

It would be just too expensive and bulky to use 5 50uF ESA's to reach 250 uF. And nearly all reviews of the Auricap placed it as outstanding for upper bass/lower midrange performance. I'm guessing that its bloominess/perkiness will be symbiotic with the MR's.

[Face]

Yes, that would be quite expensive.

[PhilDSP]

Thanks fellas. So with 2 x 10” SS woofers would you go sealed or ported? Sounds like Jon prefers sealed.

I think you'd hear a major positive difference if you go with a TL. You can give the line a quick taper both in the side-to-side depth and front-to-back depth so that the cabinet doesn't have to be enormous. A taper actually gives you an improved low end extension. The lack of internal reflections produces a magically clean and articulate sound IMO.

[savage25xtreme]

any updates? Jon to busy with travel to finish? got a web page up and running for the Ardents? are they still at Thomas's? ;x(

[ThomasW]

The speakers are at Jon's, he traveling on business continuously until Thanksgiving.

[Ray Collins]

Thanks for the update...

[JonMarsh]

Work life's a b*tch!

No, I haven't dropped off the face of the earth, though it may seem that way. I'm just being divvied up by three different groups at work and now though I'm allocated at my original job just 50%, it hasn't shrunken any, quite the contrary.

I've got two weeks scheduled off at Christmas time, and that's about the soonest I'll be able to get back to the project- I still haven't recovered from the road trip, the home's a disaster area from all the work the last six months, and besides, the dog ate my homework!!

I think the crossovers are pretty close, except for tweeter level, but I can't even lay my hand on the last schematics at the moment- not that it's a problem to work back from the crossover boards.

Complicating things is ET claiming precedence for a project intended for the Princess's cousin that was injured years ago in a Tie fighter crash, plus a digital audio skunkworks project that will be worked on the next week- no talking about that until we see if it works.

This has been a pretty crazy year so far. But interesting- you know, like the old Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times..."

[ThomasW]

but I can't even lay my hand on the last schematics at the moment- not that it's a problem to work back from the crossover boards.

They're sitting on my kitchen table as they were when I tried to give them to you during your short stay for FAE training.

I can mail or fax them to you....

[cjd]

They're sitting on my kitchen table as they were when I tried to give them to you during your short stay for FAE training.

I can mail or fax them to you....

Watch out for Bothins!

[Beau]

Just a heads up, Madisound have a 12ohm version of the S/S 26w on sale now. Check the specials page.

Beau.

[JonMarsh]

Just a heads up, Madisound have a 12ohm version of the S/S 26w on sale now. Check the specials page.

Beau.

Thanks!

Too bad there's no spare change in the pocket now, just mostly lint.

Qts=0.49. Hmmmm.

Imagine a VERY limited edition Arvo dipole speaker, maybe double up the new Vifa 6-5 on midrange duty, and a waveguide loaded SS D2608. December day dreams.... in November!

Let's hope these don't sell for a while. Would need about 6 or 8. Even at this friendly price, "ouch". :W

[gbegland]

Thanks!

Too bad there's no spare change in the pocket now, just mostly lint.

Qts=0.49. Hmmmm.

Imagine a VERY limited edition Arvo dipole speaker, maybe double up the new Vifa 6-5 on midrange duty, and a waveguide loaded SS D2608. December day dreams.... in November!

Let's hope these don't sell for a while. Would need about 6 or 8. Even at this friendly price, "ouch". :W

Hmmmmm is right! I was thinking of the same exact thing last night but with a big Raal in place of the SS on waveguide. Saw those new Vifa @ the RMAF and they are sexy as hell in person. Got so excited in fact that I forgot to take pictures for you guys.

Greg

[CraigJ]

Imagine a VERY limited edition Arvo dipole speaker, and a waveguide loaded SS D2608.

Such the tease. And what waveguide would that be?

Cj

[ThomasW]

And what waveguide would that be?

He was making noises about using the cheap MCM unit Zaph and others have used...

[JonMarsh]

He was making noises about using the cheap MCM unit Zaph and others have used...

Bingo! Give the man a Ceeegar! If I didn't have so much other crap to do this week, I'd be trying the D2608 and waveguide this week- have one milled for it.

Of course, curiosity killed the cat, so I'd better be careful. More like a prelim study to see what might be possible- other than a DXT, for example.

[CraigJ]

He was making noises about using the cheap MCM unit Zaph and others have used...

Ah, kind of like this:



with this:



only different.

[JonMarsh]

yeah, maybe more like this...







And a tip of the hat to John, of course. Think of the idea in research as being John's Waveguide TMM, but with different drivers, and as a 3.5 way dipole. Other than that, it's exactly the same. :W

[augerpro]

A recently intercepted Rebel transmission turned up this: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8713

[Face]

This looks pretty too, 420hz FS?! 8O

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8714

[Jed]

This looks pretty too, 420hz FS?! 8O

Too bad about the price on the Be tweeter.

[Brian Kingsbury]

At least it's cheaper than the big Raal? Still out of my budget though...

[JonMarsh]

Of course, they describe it as "outstanding off axis dispersion" but for a true pistonic dome of that size with no phase shield, and not inverted, that shouldn't be the case, and indeed, it doesn't appear to be.




But it is interesting to speculate on the tonality- how it might compare to the Diamond Accuton tweeters I've heard (both standard and custom). It should be very clean and detailed, but perhaps a bit soft in the very top end- like a D26NC55. :W At 10X the price.

Well, interesting....

[JonMarsh]

Ola from Houston; new tweeters for the Ardents ordered this morning during a lull in the day- more more long meeting this afternoon, after a business lunch.

Also ordered woofers and tweeters for the NeoD CC MkII. And drivers for the Modula MT MkII. Yup, just what the world needs, another 7" two way design- of course, with Seas ER18RNX on the bottom end. A minor twist on the top end, something I've been wanting to try- should be ready by Xmas Eve along with the Nascent- should be an interesting comparison!

[Paul Ebert]

Any chance that the NeoD CC MkII will present a load suitable for a entry-level HT receiver (Harman Kardon AVR-154)?