Ardent Speaker Camp

[---k---]

Paul, The specs on the Seas ER18RNX call it a 8 ohm driver. Unless I'm missing something, odds are good. http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8181

[JonMarsh]

I expect it to come in as a fairly solid but not abusive 4 ohm load- 2x 8 Ohm midwoofer. The HK claims to have a high current though low rated power outputs, so I would think it would be comfortable with 4 ohm loads, certainly within the context of 30 watts at 8 ohms. Sensitivity of the MkII should be higher, due to the midwoofers - about 87-88 dB/2.83 VRMS. The HK get's pretty positive comments for it's price class- might be a great bedroom HT unit.

http://hometheaterreview.com/harman-kardon-avr-154-av-receiver-reviewed/

I'm planning on building about three of the new version if the proto works out OK- had cabinets for 5 originally, two went to my outlaw nephew (ex nephew in-law).

[---k---]

I got caught up thinking about the Modula MT Mrk II. Didn't notice that Paul said NeoD CC. I'm reading too fast. Sorry for the confusion.

[JonMarsh]

The Modula MT MkII should be in the 6 ohm range.

[WillyD]

This may be a stupid question, but may I ask which midwoofer will be utilized in the Mk2 NeoD CC. I think I remember reading it was going to be a slightly more "upscale" driver.

[Bear]

This may be a stupid question, but may I ask which midwoofer will be utilized in the Mk2 NeoD CC. I think I remember reading it was going to be a slightly more "upscale" driver.

There was some talk about a revised NeoD with ER18NX on the low end, C79 for a mid and the 3/4" small Scan Speak tweeter (D2004/6020). Jon's statement that he wants to try a "twist" on the top end makes me curious whether the C79 is still in the hunt, or whether RS52 hangs around for another version. The C79 is as expensive as two ER18s and the tweeter combined, but presumably worth it, especially as a center channel.

[WillyD]

Wow. I can see the ER18NX and even a D2004/6020, but a mid that costs over $300/ea? That would be high end alright.

[Paul Ebert]

... Jon's statement that he wants to try a "twist" on the top end makes me curious whether the C79 is still in the hunt, or whether RS52 hangs around for another version. The C79 is as expensive as two ER18s and the tweeter combined, but presumably worth it, especially as a center channel.

Or, perhaps, the "twist" is the Seas DXT. After all, it's off-axis behavior is rather exemplary. 8)

Jon, a ER18 version I could probably swing, but a C79? Unfortunately, no way! I suppose a ER18 version would indicate that a RS180 version is unlikely?

[Bear]

Or, perhaps, the "twist" is the Seas DXT. After all, it's off-axis behavior is rather exemplary. 8)

Yeah, it's a real shame that CC stands for Center Channel. I suspect that this is going to be another WT/MW design, so vertical height will be at a premium.

Jon, a ER18 version I could probably swing, but a C79? Unfortunately, no way! I suppose a ER18 version would indicate that a RS180 version is unlikely?

I think that if folks sweet talk him, he might offer up a version that substitutes the RS100 for the C79, much like with the Ardents proper. Of course, this is really just rampant speculation until Jon actually confirms the driver complement. ;x( ;x(

[JonMarsh]

Hey, rampant speculation can be pretty fun, like all the chatter leading up to Apple product announcements!

Seriously though, the CC thing has two potential paths- I wanted to do an update to the existing design retaining the RS52 midrange and the fairly compact cabinet size, but move a bit up in budget on the midwoofers and the tweeters - this is what I consider a NeoD CC Mk II- and after some Unibox plotting and calc, it will use the ER18RNX on the bottom end - the tweeter is not cast in cement yet, and I hope I'll arrive at a more budget sensitive alternative, but for the moment, I have a pair of D2004/6020 on the way to try out- the 3/4" Scanspeak should improve in off axis dispersion and extension, and be a solid performer with regards to distortion in the required frequency range (nominal crossover of 3300 Hz, but center frequency of design of 1600 Hz at -18 dB).

I'd also want to do a larger holds less barred CC, for which I planned the C79 and the ER18RNX, again, the tweeter not nailed down, but even still leaning towards the D2004/6020, depending on how the distortion performance versus SPL looks down low, as that design requires a CF of 900 Hz at -18 dB, with a nominal tweeter crossover of about 2700 Hz.

The Modula MT MkII is like a wedding- something borrowed, something blue, something familiar, something new... (where did that come from??)

Roughly,

0.75 cu ft enclosure
ER18RNX with box tuning similar to Ardent (port tuned to ~28-30Hz, 20 liter per driver)
MCM waveguide with SS D2608 tweeter (provisional, in testing this weekend)
A minimalist and a perfectionist crossover (borrowed, thanks Zaph) - perfectionist with some "technology" from the Ardent. (just for fun I should write up a marketing spiel as if this were some high end product spin off from the Ardent- which it sort of is and isn't-
LR2 approximate transfer functions, about 2 kHz crossover, driver time alignment via the waveguide so we don't have to play any funny games in the crossover or use an all pass delay filter.

It's an experiment, one I've been thinking about a while, and just now have a recipient/excuse so's I can build it without guilt. :W

It may not be the typical MT constructor's cup of tea at all, but if it turns out as hoped, I expect I'll wind up building a few more. I expect my daughter will want a pair once she hears them. :B

For this particular design concept, an RS180 concept is not feasible because it doesn't behave itself well enough in the required frequency ranges. Also, I'm shooting to be a bit more "high end" in sonic quality, and the overall distortion footprint of the ER18RNX is 12-15 dB better through much of the working range in the bottom end through upper bass. That's not insignificant to my ears.

The original Modula MT represents a solid approach with the RS180- with good balance in the performance in bottom end through midrange and top end, with the necessary components to tame the RS180 fairly well.

If the new Modula MT works well, I supposed I'd consider trying an MTM version, but I have misgivings about that considering the crossover frequencies and how the drivers interact- that's where I think I'll leave the MTM thing to ET with the Nascent.

Also, I have one more bookshelf system in mind with the RS52, working title "BD Monitor" (baby Duelund monitor), which is not a CC, which is up in the air style and cabinet wise (leaning towards something like the Avalon mixing monitor in proportions), is fairly compact by employing some trickery, more I won't say until I see if the construction equals the modeling.

Jon won't be doing much besides speakers this holiday...

[WillyD]

All of that sounds spectacular, Jon. Can't want to see those designs.

[Ray Collins]

DITTO....

Ray

[JonMarsh]

Oh, and don't forget I'm still working on the Ardents! Hope to finish fine tune of crossovers this weekend, then teardown to complete wood work and finishing. Of course, I might postpone the latter until I've got something else up to play- right now I don't have anything to listen to at home!

[numberoneoppa]

I'm drooling over the new design (concepts) as well. :P

Also, I for one find it incredibly ironic that you don't have any speakers to listen to at home. Maybe you should just finish the Ardents first.

[JonMarsh]

I'm drooling over the new design (concepts) as well. :P

Also, I for one find it incredibly ironic that you don't have any speakers to listen to at home. Maybe you should just finish the Ardents first.

That's what a sensible person would do, but for example, the Modula MT MkII "first article" are a christmas present, barely delayed due to the recipient being on holiday travel until just after Christmas, so they're getting a lot of priority!!

[savage25xtreme]

new tweeters for the Ardents ordered this morning during a lull in the day- more more long meeting this afternoon, after a business lunch.

I have followed this thread very closely and don't remember any new tweeters being discussed?

something wrong with the aircirc? :E

[Bear]

something wrong with the aircirc? :E

I think Jon and the Ardents should Be all that they can Be. :E :T

[synthguy]

This thread is stoking my speaker lust to dangerous proportions.

evilskillit is hard at work on a pair of Statement Monitors and a sub for me... well, more like "soft" at work, but then he has a job and family. And I have been made aware that the Statements aren't necessarily the ultimate in speakers. Sometime next year, I want to commission him on something truly high end, especially if something spectacular shows up on the tweeter and midrange driver front. Several statements, if you'll pardon the pun, have attracted my interest in here, and am watching for some definitive closing remarks.

[JonMarsh]

I think Jon and the Ardents should Be all that they can Be. :E :T

Yes!! The End all and Be all of existence - and 99% pure! until the next big design comes along.


You'd think I was a woman as often as I change my mind...

Some of the Mad stuff arrived early today- ER18RNX and Clarity caps a day early- but no SS woofers or SS Beo tweeters yet... :cry:

[PhilDSP]

Some of the Mad stuff arrived early today- ER18RNX and Clarity caps a day early- but no SS woofers or SS Beo tweeters yet... :cry:

Oooo, that sounds very promising... Which woofer model would that Be?

[JonMarsh]

Oooo, that sounds very promising... Which woofer model would that Be?

It's one of the Madisound specials- 26W/12867T. It's not for the Ardent, but for another project I've been collecting pieces for.



26w/12867t Image not available

26W-12867T0-curve Image not availalbe

It's a variant of the standard 26W with higher VC DCR and higher Q, about 0.49 (claimed), which looks like it will work in a low frequency alignment that's about as common as flying Deloreans - for the next big system, in order to make it smaller but still capable of the SPL response I want and with low distortion output in a moderate size box.

Basically, we're combining a flux capacitor with the SS woofer to phase shift the current and alter the LF frequency response- you still can't break Hoffman's Iron law, but you can wiggle around in it in interesting ways, make tradeoffs.

Let's say we put that 26W in a paltry 25 liter net volume (or two of them in 50 liters, as I plan).



The result would be the black curve above, with a Q over 1, and a significant hump in the response centered in the 60 ~ 125 Hz area. Some folks really like that sound, I think they used to call that a JBL L100 back in the day (70's). However, I don't think I could live with it long term. :W

However, if we put a flux capacitor in series with the woofer, one can tune the system LF response by the phase shift in the current and the impedance of the capacitor changing the drop across the woofer. The green and red curves show two possible alignments of interest- the green might be more suited to an open positioning well away from the walls, where the boundary lift comes in below 50 Hz; the red curve might be if you're close to the wall and need to lean out the midbass a few more dB; it comes with a little more very low end extension in the 30 Hz area, but drops faster below about 25 Hz. Same 25 liters as the other curves, only the flux capacitor tuning has changed. No, this isn't April Fools Day, it's the Christmas season. :roll:

The concept is seeking good low end extension to the 30's in the smallest possible enclosure; the way this works, there's some inherent protection against overdriving the system at very low frequencies, something a ported system lacks. Output has a 3rd order fall off below ~35 Hz, not as steep as a ported 4th order, but steeper than a conventional sealed 2nd order.

But, 25 liters instead of 75 liters or more for this 26W otherwise! That could make this next project a far more livable size and shape than what was originally conceived! With two of these 26W in the bottom end ( up to about 350/400 Hz), LF performance should be pretty respectable.

And yeah, there's another lower cost implementation of this concept I'm chewing through for a different project that may pan out, using a more readily available driver. That one is tentatively named the BD Monitor- Baby Duelund Monitor, and yes, it will have my favorite dome midrange, the RS52.

[fjhuerta]

Sometimes I think my wife would rather see me watching porn than this site.

Porn doesn't end up costing as much money.

[Curly Woods]

Sometimes I think my wife would rather see me watching porn than this site.

Porn doesn't end up costing as much money.

I think my wife would support an occasional hooker rather than see me hanging out on these forums and the money that I spend in a year :rofl:

[PhilDSP]

Wow! That sounds pretty intense! But what happens if you turn up the amplifier too far and the flux capacitor receives a little too much current? Will the whole cabinet that you worked on so hard end up being transported onto some long lost WWII destroyer or a different planet or even back in time to suddenly appear before some bewildered Cro Magnon? I bet you really have to worry about lightning strikes too!

[Jonasz]

It's one of the Madisound specials- 26W/12867T. It's not for the Ardent, but for another project I've been collecting pieces for.

26w/12867t Image not available

26W-12867T0-curve Image not availalbe

It's a variant of the standard 26W with higher VC DCR and higher Q, about 0.49 (claimed), which looks like it will work in a low frequency alignment that's about as common as flying Deloreans - for the next big system, in order to make it smaller but still capable of the SPL response I want and with low distortion output in a moderate size box.

Basically, we're combining a flux capacitor with the SS woofer to phase shift the current and alter the LF frequency response- you still can't break Hoffman's Iron law, but you can wiggle around in it in interesting ways, make tradeoffs.

Let's say we put that 26W in a paltry 25 liter net volume (or two of them in 50 liters, as I plan).



The result would be the black curve above, with a Q over 1, and a significant hump in the response centered in the 60 ~ 125 Hz area. Some folks really like that sound, I think they used to call that a JBL L100 back in the day (70's). However, I don't think I could live with it long term. :W

However, if we put a flux capacitor in series with the woofer, one can tune the system LF response by the phase shift in the current and the impedance of the capacitor changing the drop across the woofer. The green and red curves show two possible alignments of interest- the green might be more suited to an open positioning well away from the walls, where the boundary lift comes in below 50 Hz; the red curve might be if you're close to the wall and need to lean out the midbass a few more dB; it comes with a little more very low end extension in the 30 Hz area, but drops faster below about 25 Hz. Same 25 liters as the other curves, only the flux capacitor tuning has changed. No, this isn't April Fools Day, it's the Christmas season. :roll:

The concept is seeking good low end extension to the 30's in the smallest possible enclosure; the way this works, there's some inherent protection against overdriving the system at very low frequencies, something a ported system lacks. Output has a 3rd order fall off below ~35 Hz, not as steep as a ported 4th order, but steeper than a conventional sealed 2nd order.

But, 25 liters instead of 75 liters or more for this 26W otherwise! That could make this next project a far more livable size and shape than what was originally conceived! With two of these 26W in the bottom end ( up to about 350/400 Hz), LF performance should be pretty respectable.

And yeah, there's another lower cost implementation of this concept I'm chewing through for a different project that may pan out, using a more readily available driver. That one is tentatively named the BD Monitor- Baby Duelund Monitor, and yes, it will have my favorite dome midrange, the RS52.

Looks to be a similar concept Tony Gee uses in his Black Box monitors. The woofer is the Dayton RS270 and he also use the RS52 as mid. The design looks interesting but the crossover is VERY expensive... Lots of big caps... :E

https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/archive.html

[CraigJ]

Basically, we're combining a flux capacitor with the SS woofer to phase shift the current and alter the LF frequency response- you still can't break Hoffman's Iron law, but you can wiggle around in it

Jon,

I don't see anything about the SS woofer in your diagram:



and although you're wiggling Hoffman's Iron law, do you really have room for four of them in here:



Have fun and good luck on your list of stuff to finish by Xmas.

[PewterTA]

1.21 Gigawatts is all it takes to transport those speakers to who knows where! ;x(

Though if he would send them back in time, then we would already be able to have them!!?

As long as he doesn't see himself! :T :B

[savage25xtreme]

Looks to be a similar concept Tony Gee uses in his Black Box monitors. The woofer is the Dayton RS270 and he also use the RS52 as mid. The design looks interesting but the crossover is VERY expensive... Lots of big caps... :E

https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/archive.html

That certainly follows ET's motto....

There is more money in that one 600 uF cap (3x200uF) than in all the drivers 8O

[---k---]

That certainly follows ET's motto....

There is more money in that one 600 uF cap (3x200uF) than in all the drivers 8O

This should be in a different thread. I'm in the process of looking for the one someone started, but since it is here and people may be interested...

I've looked at those. Very interesting. People talk about the cost. I had time to waste this afternoon, so I just finished putting a BOM together for it. I did both Tony's exact BOM, and an alternate. My unofficial budget alternate:
1) Replaces foil inductors with air cores with very similar DCR.
2) Replaces 1 air-core with an iron core.
3) Replaces all fancy caps with Solen Fast Caps
4) Replaces Solen Fast Caps with electrolytic capacitors.
5) Replace Mills resistors w/ Eagle.

Doing this gets the price down from $1,432/pr to a respectable $591. It gets the price for the drivers down to $344 and the crossover to $247/pr. Seems very reasonable. Now I wish I had an excuse to build them....

[JonMarsh]

Wow! That sounds pretty intense! But what happens if you turn up the amplifier too far and the flux capacitor receives a little too much current? Will the whole cabinet that you worked on so hard end up being transported onto some long lost WWII destroyer or a different planet or even back in time to suddenly appear before some bewildered Cro Magnon? I bet you really have to worry about lightning strikes too!

Only if you exceed 1.21 Gigawatts input power- otherwise, no worries!

[JonMarsh]

That certainly follows ET's motto....

There is more money in that one 600 uF cap (3x200uF) than in all the drivers 8O

That's just silly, when for LF applications you can get things done with Dayton 100uF caps just fine...

[---k---]

That's just silly, when for LF applications you can get things done with Dayton 100uF caps just fine...

Jon,
True, but Tony only spec 3x200 Solen Fast Caps $184 total. 6x 100 uF Dayton Poly Caps is $138. Tony was trying to be reasonable.

[savage25xtreme]

That's just silly, when for LF applications you can get things done with Dayton 100uF caps just fine...

maybe I should clarify, I meant an all black speaker follows ET motto

[JonMarsh]

Tony's execution (or hired execution) is pretty interesting, but the crossover looks over the top even to me, though leaving out some things that shouldn't be left out - like Midrange LCR zobel!

I think this concept has some room in it, and the RS270 is one of the drivers I planned to analyze for this concept. There are other scanspeaks that would work, too.

Nice work Ryan, but let's see if we can split the difference in a creative way during the next couple of weeks? I hope no one minds if I use a different tweeter... :W

All in favor of a completely re-worked design with NeoD CC crossover and a reasonable budget, raise your hand and say "Aye".

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

I don't see anything about the SS woofer in your diagram:



and although you're wiggling Hoffman's Iron law, do you really have room for four of them in here:



Have fun and good luck on your list of stuff to finish by Xmas.

But that's just the point! Without the flux capacitor, there isn't room for them in there! Not even behind the seats! :B

[Bear]

But that's just the point! Without the flux capacitor, there isn't room for them in there! Not even behind the seats! :B

Does Hoffman's Iron Law still hold when you can bend space and time? For that matter, has Martin King released his MathCad worksheets for a mass-loaded folded-space horn? Last I heard, it wa still in beta... :W

[JonMarsh]

Warning! Cellphone Speaker Porn!

It's fresh- it's hot! It's blurry!









I'ts the Scan Speak channel!

If you'd told me a year ago I'd be spending this kind of money on Scan Speak drivers, I'd have thought you were crazy...

[Bear]

I'm really curious on how the Be air circ performs. But I suspect more than one person is, as well.

I bought one of the tiny tweets when the Mk2 was first mooted, so I'm covered for my next CC, unless it doesn't prove out. If it doesn't, then it will go nicely with some 15cm SEAS woofers that I've got.

[JonMarsh]

Hey, I have a good feeling about these little guys- I held my Macbook air up to my head with all the Madiosound graphs displayed, and it just felt right... sort of like Doc's mind reading apparatus in the first movie!



It's a 3/4" so the off axis should be good (never trust SS measurements or T/S parameters fully!), and the Xmax is pretty righteous, so for the range they need to cover, should be good to go- all they have to do is beat out the Vifa D26NC55, how hard can that be!??!??!!? yeah, we know how hard from all the other tweeters that don't manage to do that. Got about 5 of those left in NOS.

Obviously, I could spend 24 hours a day the next two weeks working on this stuff...

Saturday is going to be some light test baffle construction and driver testing - gotta see if the Seas will mount in my 10" dipole test baffle for nearfield measurements (mainly for basic SPL response and distortion). I have baffles for the Beo's,, that's the one I'm really curious about, that plus mating the D2608 with waveguide. Got six brand spanking new ER18RNX's here, and an assorted selection of ESA caps, too- plus cable and connectors coming in from DIYCABLE and Parts Connexion in Canada.

I just wish I was going to be off for 4 weeks instead of two.

[Bear]

It's a 3/4" so the off axis should be good (never trust SS measurements or T/S parameters fully!), and the Xmax is pretty righteous, so for the range they need to cover, should be good to go- all they have to do is beat out the Vifa D26NC55, how hard can that be!??!??!!? yeah, we know how hard from all the other tweeters that don't manage to do that. Got about 5 of those left in NOS.

I've got 4 of the NOS left myself and 5 of the New NOS from the last time Madisound had these pulled from the brink. At some point, I may have to let some go if I don't use them. 8O

[Silversmoky]

Looking forward to your testing results on all of these Jon! Great lineup! Hoping the 3/4 Scan tweeter tests are favorable. Just picked up a couple for a small moniter build but haven't done any testing on them so far. Now it looks like it will be spring before I get to it Those Be tweeters are beautiful!

[PhilDSP]

Only if you exceed 1.21 Gigawatts input power- otherwise, no worries!

That's not too bad. It's the Tesla Coils you really have to be careful with. Give one a good spark and if it's pointed in the wrong direction - poof - there goes Tokyo.

I see the 26W/12867T has an aluminum cone - very nice! It sounds quite similar to the 26W/8765-SE I'm using except for the low impedance which makes it especially suitable for wiring a pair in parallel which I'd guess you'll be doing.

[Paul Ebert]

Wow! That sounds pretty intense! But what happens if you turn up the amplifier too far and the flux capacitor receives a little too much current? Will the whole cabinet that you worked on so hard end up being transported onto some long lost WWII destroyer or a different planet or even back in time to suddenly appear before some bewildered Cro Magnon? I bet you really have to worry about lightning strikes too!

Where do you think Arthur C. Clarke got the idea of the monoliths in '2001'? Of course, his ancestral subconcious got a bit confused by the 'bigger is better' predilection.

All in favor of a completely re-worked design with NeoD CC crossover and a reasonable budget, raise your hand and say "Aye".

Aye! (There's no emoticon of a raised hand, is there?)

Though the notion of a CC based on the ZA14, the Fountek FR-88, and a suitable tweeter, is also tugging at me.

[JonMarsh]

Looking forward to your testing results on all of these Jon! Great lineup! Hoping the 3/4 Scan tweeter tests are favorable. Just picked up a couple for a small moniter build but haven't done any testing on them so far. Now it looks like it will be spring before I get to it Those Be tweeters are beautiful!

Yeah, I've got my fingers crossed on the D2004/6020. Personally, I think Scanspeak is on a roll these days- some of that I relate to even more on the lower cost products they have, like the former HDS tweeter, now D2608. Five to seven years ago, there wasn't that much I liked in their lineup.

I'm really hoping that the Beo tweeters will control diaphragm resonance and distortion in the way that the Accuton diamond tweeters do- but at 1/5 the cost, of course! I may be a bit too optimistic, but we'll see.

I'm expecting similar distortion performance to the D3004/662000, but who knows... I wouldn't mind a bit less HD2! I'm going to be doing a lot of tweeter "shoot outs" the next couple of weeks!

[JonMarsh]

Where do you think Arthur C. Clarke got the idea of the monoliths in '2001'? Of course, his ancestral subconcious got a bit confused by the 'bigger is better' predilection.



Aye! (There's no emoticon of a raised hand, is there?)

Though the notion of a CC based on the ZA14, the Fountek FR-88, and a suitable tweeter, is also tugging at me.

Well, go for it, Paul! Let a thousand flowers bloom in the spring! (even if it is Christmas!) That would be a cute little speaker, bedroom HT? You see so many discussions about how much is enough for a CC, and some feel 7" woofers are OK, yet there are others using 8's and 10's!