Ardent Speaker Camp

[Dean100]

The scary and exciting thing about a project when it gets to this point is that the end is in sight, and the realization of the original vision becomes more palpable- BUT!! The opportunity for "catastrophic yield loss" is high at this point- have to work carefully and with premeditation- thats why I did a test run on the finishing technique I figured to try earlier this week. Better to screw up on a cut off scrap then on a speaker with many tens of hours invested.

Well, good news is I've got the second cabinet glued and clamped up- tomorrow AM I should be able to take the clamps off, and start on some of the detail prep work.

Looking very good Jon. Slow and steady..........

[TacoD]

Jon what type of biscuit joiner are you using?

Oh btw I think your woodwork is not bad at all considering you're working from a garage shop, instead of a cnc controlled workshop .

[Hank]

I just don't move as fast these days as I did 30 years ago!

Hold on there, Pilgrim - I hold the sloth title around here. Compared to me, you move at warp speed. Those cabs are looking good and Brinks truck solid! I haven't even tested my batch of 25 Peerless mid-woofs yet, much less started my OBLA Dee baffles. I could use the excuses of going out of town several weekends to take care of things at the family farm and my 93 year-old aunt's affairs now that I'm her guardian, and building a school-room storage cabinet for my daughter the new first grade teacher, and building a toy box for my new grandson, and about to start building a fence gate to replace a seriously warped and cracked one. BUT, those are excuses and I need to put pencil to graph paper, test the woofs and make my final decision on whither RD75 or RD50.

[JonMarsh]

Hold on there, Pilgrim - I hold the sloth title around here. Compared to me, you move at warp speed. Those cabs are looking good and Brinks truck solid! I haven't even tested my batch of 25 Peerless mid-woofs yet, much less started my OBLA Dee baffles. I could use the excuses of going out of town several weekends to take care of things at the family farm and my 93 year-old aunt's affairs now that I'm her guardian, and building a school-room storage cabinet for my daughter the new first grade teacher, and building a toy box for my new grandson, and about to start building a fence gate to replace a seriously warped and cracked one. BUT, those are excuses and I need to put pencil to graph paper, test the woofs and make my final decision on whither RD75 or RD50.

Actually, Hank, as we get older, we should move with more alacrity on these projects- after all, we have less time left to listen to them when they're done! :W

Jon what type of biscuit joiner are you using?

Oh btw I think your woodwork is not bad at all considering you're working from a garage shop, instead of a cnc controlled workshop .

Well, maybe I can upgrade on my next project! :roll: :W

Thanks for the kind words- my jointer is a DeWalt DW682- I looked at quite a few before settling on that one back in 2003. Looks to be still available.

[CraigJ]

... and make my final decision on whither RD75 or RD50.

Hank,

Since Jon is selling off "stuff" to pay for the Ardents, just buy his RD50s with your tax return $, and be done with the agony.

Craig

[ThomasW]

Hank,

Since Jon is selling off "stuff" to pay for the Ardents, just buy his RD50s with your tax return $, and be done with the agony.

Craig

Or.....

Just buy Neo8's and save a bunch over either the RD50 or RD75...

[JonMarsh]

Of course, don't forget Thomas has an "extra" set of RD75's, too, if you want choice! But I don't know if he's interested in parting with them- I haven't even thought about parting with mine- heck, they've appreciated in value more than anything else I've gotten in the last 5 years!

Let's seem, maybe I should pair them up with a huge stack of Zaph's new 5" driver being sold at Madisound? And just to throw some heresy into the mix, I'd do them sealed....

[chasw98]

And just to throw some heresy into the mix, I'd do them sealed....

I just lost my breath and fainted. :E

[Johnloudb]

Heresy? How about blasphemy!

He's just messing with your mind Chuck.

[JonP]

Here is a good source for all sorts of epoxies, and at some very good prices. This is their entire line of products. And also quite a bit of info about epoxies. It's a bit hard to navigate through it, but they do have a lot there.

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/

This is the exact same place, the big difference is they do not show all of their available products on this much simpler to navigate storefront.

http://www.epoxyusa.com/default.asp

Have been highly enjoying this thread... one of these days, there'll be some FACETS in my future... Can't wait for the finished product.

While we're on epoxy... from my defunct at the moment hobby of High Power Rocketry... West Systems was what everyone swore by as the good stuff, when you wanted to fiberglass that big piece of Sonotube for a rocket airframe... Nice pump bottle dispensers, variety of products, etc...
West Systems

[JohnA]

Yeah West is good, but West is also pricey. I have used a few of the West epoxy products in the past. and found them to be no better or worse than many others, but they sure did cost a lot more on some things.

Smith & Company is another epoxy brand that is good. With their water thin CPES epoxy sealer getting raves by many, and also negative criticism by many of it's competitors. But almost none of it's competitors really offer anything as thin as it is and that soaks in as deep as it does. It is extremely good for saturating wood with epoxy, but with that it is also very pricey to buy.

http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/index.html

There is not a whole lot of stuff in epoxies, that is so top secret, that it can not be done for much more reasonable pricing than what some of the "bigger names" charge for it. There is only a limited amount of chemical companies that actually manufacture the raw chemical epoxy formulas that are used by pretty much all the different epoxy vendors. Companies like West and others, probably just specify for them to tweak some of the formulas for them a bit in some way. Most any of the epoxy vendors that specialize in marine grade use epoxies, and offer some epoxies that are even made to cure underwater for boat repairs, more than likely their entire line are high quality epoxies. And are probably way better and also lower cost that what you will find at any hardware store.

[Hank]

Actually, Hank, as we get older, we should move with more alacrity on these projects- after all, we have less time left to listen to them when they're done!

Whoa, that's harsh and too much reality for me to deal with. Now where's my bottle of tequila...

Or.....Just buy Neo8's and save a bunch over either the RD50 or RD75...

I thought about that for .023 seconds, but I'm hung up on the RD legend. My problem is that I've not listened to RD's or Neo's, so I can't rely on good old subjective comparisons. If the sound quality is equal, I'd buy the Neo's.

And just to throw some heresy into the mix, I'd do them sealed....

I just lost my breath and fainted.

I am (almost) speechless. Here we are, trying to build our last, best reproducers of the musical note via Open Baffle Line Arrays, and a miscreant has the audacity to suggest SEALED? BOXED-IN music? Evil Twin: please send a psychokinetic strangle to Jon for 11 seconds to shock him back to reality.

[cjd]

Mortgage the house and use the funds to attend live events. Forget speakers.

[---k---]

But I was so disappointed when I saw Blue Man Group live in Chicago. The DVD is so much better at home!

And I'm still trying to think of what to make of Dvorak at the CSO. Maybe it was the cheep gallery seats, or maybe I'm just pre-programmed to recorded music, but I think I'm going to start a holy war and say that live events are over-rated.

Collage of Dupage has some interesting world music coming up. I think I'm going to give live events a few more trys.

[JonMarsh]

About ready for main veneering now...

Been busy today with a mixture of things, both side tasks like an assembly/finishing turntable, and detail work on the cabinets, plus veneer cutting and prep.

Sheesh, this is too much like working for a living!


OTOH, things are moving along.... :B



The "Tool of the day" for this Friday is the Porter Cable 390 5" random orbital sander- worth every penny! A real time saver compared with what I was doing with a smaller sander for the M8ta- live and learn. Some day I'll get good at this, if I do it enough....

Featuring Norton Abrasives Hook and Loom sanding disks (sure wish I was getting spiffed for mentioning this stuff!)

Have a good weekend everyone- I'll be working away...

[cjd]

I have to check and see if I have that sander or a different model PC - it sure is nice though!

Getting closer.

[Hdale85]

I think your being a bit modest there Jon, your cabinets are always fantastic looking so I think you are already pretty dang good at it Honestly those cabinets could be left just like they are with some poly on them. THey look very nice the way they sit! But I admit they will look fantastic with the birds eye.

[Johnloudb]

Yeah, I completely with Dougie. Those look great and are going to look gorgeous.

Jon, I forgot to ask you, do you have any tricks for getting the enamel off the Cardas wire. I have some Cardas hookup wire and I haven't used it because each strand of the wire is individually insulated. It's a real pain to scrape each strand of wire off before soldering. And I always worry that I'll miss one or two strands.

[Hdale85]

How about a lighter? I had some wire like that and I lit the end up with a lighter then scrapped it all off.

[Johnloudb]

Okay, thanks, I'll give it shot.

[JonMarsh]

Here's the skinny: The melting point of the insulation on Cardas wire is up fairly high- a solder pot is one way to deal with it (which I used to use, when I had Weller irons with the fixed number temps), but now I use a temperature control Weller station- you just need to crank that puppy up to about 460 C, and use a large tip that can collect some solder on the end to help with the contact to melt the insulation.

I do NOT recommend a lighter, as the temperature can be quite a bit hotter, and you can affect the surface metallurgy of the copper in an unfavorable way.

Cardas has some good FAQ pages on their web site, too- you may find some of the information there helpful.

[Hdale85]

Yeah the wire I was using a lighter on was single strand copper and the sleeve melted off rather quickly.

[Johnloudb]

Well I tried a match and I assume it worked. Still had to scratch the it with a knife but it did seem significantly easier than before. Left some residual carbon deposits and my room now smells like some kid went crazy with a cap gun in here.

I do have a Weller and it does go up to 465 degrees, so I'll try that again. :T I'll probably just use it for special projects that don't require much wiring.

[Hdale85]

Just be careful about leaving it up that high I burnt out a heater core on one of my wands from it getting to hot I guess?

[JonMarsh]

Various little bits of work going on, rather work than post, but this shows the lower facets on one speaker. I'm modifying the method to do just one facet at a time, as doing both at once (as on this one) is REALLY tricky with only one pair of hands! Live and learn...

I'm not likely to get hired as a wood worker at Avalon, but I think this will do for now. :W




More info and pics will be posted later (yes, this means you, Paul).

We'll see if the order for veneering I've worked out works out as planned. Back next, followed by top, top bevel, front facets, and sides.

Also just picked up a Green River fixture for the driver threaded insert drilling and other tasks that I want to control the drilling precisely- has a nice drill stop, too, for repeatable depth on multiple holes.

[Bear]

Very nice drill guide! The veneering ain't too shabby, either. I look forward to hearing the methods you work out for trimming and adhesion.

[JonMarsh]

The initial veneer sizing is done by the method described earlier, using melamine boards and a trim router to cut it almost to size. Then, after the secret clamping process (have to figure out SOME way to monetize this design! :W ), the final trim was done with a combination of utility knife with fresh blade and a random orbital sander- pretty much the exact same way as they do it at Aavlon. (yes, I have been in the Avalon factory in Boulder, years ago. :W )

I've also roughed out a crossover design using test box data and averaging off axis measurements as an experiment to optimize more towards the power response- that's looking fairly straight forward, but as you might expect with lots of zobel networks- the final design should be much more tube and zero feedback solid state friendly than a certain commercial speaker. OTOH, the crossover won't be cheap.

[Jed]

- the final design should be much more tube and zero feedback solid state friendly than a certain commercial speaker. OTOH, the crossover won't be cheap.

I see Erse has some nice 12 gauge air core inductors on sale.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I saw that- including their "non perfect lay" coils- 5% tolerance. Will be doing some shopping and thinking to decide on which parts to use.

[johngalt47]

Where did you get that Green River drilling device?

[JonMarsh]

At my local Woodcraft Store. I've had "cheaper" versions of the same idea, but the one Woodcraft sells seems better designed.

[JonMarsh]

One more tool time tip...

OK, may as well spill the beans on how to make some of the veneer trimming much easier...


Think Bosch Colt Router- variable speed small format router- the fixed speed guys always seem to be spinning too fast to me.



Plus optional tilt router base....




=

Works like a charm on those tricky angles. Index lines are at 7-1/2 degree angles, so two notches is 15 degrees, not 10. Goes out to 45 degree max. Final smoothing with a hand block or PC 390 random orbital with 220 grit.

[Jed]

Jon, one time you should take a pic of all the routers you own next to each other.

"Jon, the router man; Marsh"

[JonMarsh]

If this was a movie instead of a Forum thread, it would be in the closing credits,

"Without all these routers, none of this would have been possible!"

or,

"No routers were harmed in the production of these speakers."

(so far, not even a bit burned!)

Good idea for when/if we close the thread... :W


The Colt really is handy, I love the variable speed on it, compared to fixed speed "trimmers". There's also a larger round base for threaded template guides, and a bearing roller guide for non pattern bits.

[Paul Ebert]

I've had the Colt with the tilting base on my Amazon wish list for quite a while. Cash is tight these days with two going off to college, but I may spring for it anyway. As a cheaper alternative, I'm still trying to come up with a way to be able to use my regular router (a DW625 - how I wish I'd bought the 621 instead!). Perhaps some sort of custom base.

[JonMarsh]

Kids in college are definitely expensive! My daughter is 25, but still may have some more cost in that area soon.
The Colt and the special base are pretty reasonably priced- but I can understand how even expenditures like that may have to be watched. Tools are mostly my only vice in life... ha, made a joke!

I did do those lower facets on the one cabinet by hand and with the PC390, but obviously I wasn't thinking, as it should be doable with the Colt. Have to see if that works out.

[Hank]

Tools are mostly my only vice in life... ha, made a joke!

What about tequila and beer??
I've raised 4 kids and the 22-year-old is still in college . Now you know the reason I haven't built lots of high-end speakers over the years

[cjd]

I just snagged one of those Colts the other day along with a spiral downcut flush-trim bit... So far it's a superb little piece of hardware! I did not get the tilt base with mine, maybe I should have. I see now that a few variants are available. I'm much more comfortable using it on small piece work - take things a little slower (don't cut as deep per pass) and it's even doing cutouts just fine. Would have been handy for the funky surrounds I just did, where I did the flush-trim work with a good old-fashioned hand plane.

[JonMarsh]

What about tequila and beer??
I've raised 4 kids and the 22-year-old is still in college . Now you know the reason I haven't built lots of high-end speakers over the years

Hank, Hank.... :nono:


tequila is not a vice, it's a necessity!

[JonMarsh]

I just snagged one of those Colts the other day along with a spiral downcut flush-trim bit... So far it's a superb little piece of hardware! I did not get the tilt base with mine, maybe I should have. I see now that a few variants are available. I'm much more comfortable using it on small piece work - take things a little slower (don't cut as deep per pass) and it's even doing cutouts just fine. Would have been handy for the funky surrounds I just did, where I did the flush-trim work with a good old-fashioned hand plane.

Couldn't agree with you more, Chris- I think it's probably the class leading item in it's category. I've got it setup with the template base and a spiral upcut for cutouts, too.

[fjhuerta]

Hank, Hank.... :nono:


tequila is not a vice, it's a necessity!

Truer words were never spoken. :T We may not have beer, wine, whisky, vodka (or even milk!) but there's always - always a good bottle of Tequila around.

[Paul Ebert]

I just snagged one of those Colts the other day along with a spiral downcut flush-trim bit... So far it's a superb little piece of hardware! I did not get the tilt base with mine, maybe I should have.

The tilt base is available on Amazon (and I assume elsewhere):

Colt tilt base

[JonMarsh]

I've used it to trip the top side veneer over the angled facets and backs; works like a charm.

[Hank]

Truer words were never spoken. We may not have beer, wine, whisky, vodka (or even milk!) but there's always - always a good bottle of Tequila around.

I've found another friend. :boozer:

[Jed]

The Illuminator 6620 is now $1 more than the similar Air Circ 6600, which is good news. Thought I'd let you know. Also, pretty much the entire Illuminator line is going through price changes-- for the better.