Ardent Speaker Camp

[Paul Ebert]

Awesome! Thanks, Jon. I would have thought that the 1/4" mdf wouldn't distribute the pressure well enough, but, hey, if it works...

Time to buy some clamps!

My problem at this point, is that I don't want to go back to my old speakers while I veneer and finish my new ones. I'm scraping the $ together to build a set of Natalie Ps for this purpose (they'll become ht mains after that). BTW, I'm thinking of using some sort of TL for them.

[ColoradoTom]

One thing I definitely learned is that I would have been much better off choosing a darker wood, one closer to the same general tint as the veneer glue; it's sometimes very difficult to hide the seam completely. My test finishing pieces show that the problem is less obvious after finishing, but.... well, live and learn.

Joe Woodworker has a variety of colored cold press glues

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/glues.htm

The lighter ones may have worked out for you, I currently have the darker (for Rosewood) and medium (for cherry) and they work as advertised.


I've had to remove veneeer from mdf cores before.... anybody watching needs to wear a mask as there massive amounts of nasty dust!!!!

[penngray]

No, this is a clamping process with solid wood veneer, using Titbond Cold press veneer glue. Iron on with PVA glue works pretty well with paper back veneer, but not with sold veneer as it curls once glue is applied.

Thanks,

I use exotic woods (burls, etc) none are paper back (damn expensive stuff) and I use the hot iron on glue from veneersupplies with great success.

When applying the glue I use painters tape on all the corners so the veneer is secured to a cardboard, I then apply the glue and let it all dry. No curling at all. The corners are trimmed anyways so I have no worries about the section where the tape holds down the veneer.

I like it because I do not worry about the issues you are having right now. With softner treatments I can even bend the no backing veneer around the round overs with easy.


btw, your clamping idea is great though, I will have to remember if I ever decide to cold press my veneer.

[Dennis H]

Looking good, Jon! :T

Paul, were you wearing a big hat and suspenders when you built the Trilliums?

[JonMarsh]

Thanks, Dennis.

I'm sure he was... he's from that general part of the country (to us in CA, New York and Pennsylvania are almost the same thing...) :W

I don't even own a saw like that! (I do have some Japanese hand saws, but have not mastered how to use them well).

[JonMarsh]

Thanks,

I use exotic woods (burls, etc) none are paper back (damn expensive stuff) and I use the hot iron on glue from veneersupplies with great success.

When applying the glue I use painters tape on all the corners so the veneer is secured to a cardboard, I then apply the glue and let it all dry. No curling at all. The corners are trimmed anyways so I have no worries about the section where the tape holds down the veneer.

I like it because I do not worry about the issues you are having right now. With softner treatments I can even bend the no backing veneer around the round overs with easy.


btw, your clamping idea is great though, I will have to remember if I ever decide to cold press my veneer.

I'll have to remember YOUR technique for non-backed veneer doing iron-on- my last set of speakers like these were done with iron on technique, but I was using mostly paper backed veneer.

[---k---]

Looking good, Jon! :T

Paul, were you wearing a big hat and suspenders when you built the Trilliums?

I knew I remembered someone doing big facet's with a hand saw! Thanks for digging that out.

[JonW]

Jon,

Beautiful work on both the facets and veneering! :T

For my big faceted speakers, I cut the facets with a circular saw. It worked but was not as repeatable as I’d like, even with a straight edge to align things. Others with more skill could have made it work well, I imagine. I live in a state with the big and hat suspender guys, but none of their skills have rubbed off.

I used paper-backed veneer, ironed it on, then hand trimmed it with a blade. It was especially tricky trimming the teeny parts of the facet, where it narrows down to nothing. There’s little contact area to glue/hold the veneer in place. And you’re cutting against the grain on both sides. How did you get around this problem? Did you precut the veneer piece before gluing it on?

Currently I’m making a pair of quite small speakers with facets. I was able to cut all the facets on the table saw with the sliding miter table (also a BT3100). Much easier than the larger speakers. I suspect that I’ll be paying for the easier facet cutting when trying to trim tiny pieces of veneer for the facets.

[---k---]

Hey, JonW is alive! Good to see you. I'm guessing life is pretty busy these days with your new addition.

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

Beautiful work on both the facets and veneering! :T

For my big faceted speakers, I cut the facets with a circular saw. It worked but was not as repeatable as I’d like, even with a straight edge to align things. Others with more skill could have made it work well, I imagine. I live in a state with the big and hat suspender guys, but none of their skills have rubbed off.

I used paper-backed veneer, ironed it on, then hand trimmed it with a blade. It was especially tricky trimming the teeny parts of the facet, where it narrows down to nothing. There’s little contact area to glue/hold the veneer in place. And you’re cutting against the grain on both sides. How did you get around this problem? Did you precut the veneer piece before gluing it on?

Currently I’m making a pair of quite small speakers with facets. I was able to cut all the facets on the table saw with the sliding miter table (also a BT3100). Much easier than the larger speakers. I suspect that I’ll be paying for the easier facet cutting when trying to trim tiny pieces of veneer for the facets.

I suspect having solid veneer helps - it's thicker and more stable.

I cut roughly to size, about 1/4" over all around; final trim after veneering with a combination of Colt router with the variable angle base, and my Porter Cable 5" disk random orbital sander with 120 grit disks- patience and the PC goes a long way for making up for lack of skill and experience on my part. But it's a bit time consuming that way. The Titebond cold press veneer glue holds it in place pretty well- I mask with 3M 2070 and/or blue painter's masking tape before rolling on glue with a foam roller. I get the veneer glue "painted on" thick enough that it will hide a pencil mark.

[Paul Ebert]

Thanks, Dennis.

I'm sure he was... he's from that general part of the country (to us in CA, New York and Pennsylvania are almost the same thing...) :W

I don't even own a saw like that! (I do have some Japanese hand saws, but have not mastered how to use them well).

Actually, what I could have used was one of those back bracing belts. I did work up quite a sweat. If I were to do it again, I'd probably make a sled and do it on the table saw. I ended up gouging in a couple of places. I still need to repair those with bondo.

The saw was a cheap one from Lowes. It worked better than I thought it would, but that's not saying much. There's no way I'd use my good panel saws (antique Disston D8 and D12) on mdf. I don't even like to use my Japanese saws on it.

I've done some experimenting with ironing raw veneer. I've gotten to the point where it works pretty well, but I do usually get a crack or two (this with birdseye maple). I'm not sure I want to risk it.

[JonW]

I suspect having solid veneer helps - it's thicker and more stable.

I cut roughly to size, about 1/4" over all around; final trim after veneering with a combination of Colt router with the variable angle base, and my Porter Cable 5" disk random orbital sander with 120 grit disks- patience and the PC goes a long way for making up for lack of skill and experience on my part. But it's a bit time consuming that way. The Titebond cold press veneer glue holds it in place pretty well- I mask with 3M 2070 and/or blue painter's masking tape before rolling on glue with a foam roller. I get the veneer glue "painted on" thick enough that it will hide a pencil mark.

Great info- thanks Jon. OK, so solid veneer helps. Got it. And you’ve got a router with a variable angle base. I see! That would certainly help with trimming the facet veneer. Hmmm…

I rolled Titebond II glue over the entire cabinet, let it dry, rolled on another coat, let it dry. Precut pieces of veneer with sufficient overhang, also applied 2 coats of glue. Then ironed on the veneer, and finished by trimming with the knife. It worked, but certainly could be better. I’ll have to think about a different process for my next projects. (I’ve already started veneering the mini faceted cabinets and probably shouldn’t change midstream.)

And again, those cabinets look super spiffy. :T

Hey, JonW is alive! Good to see you. I'm guessing life is pretty busy these days with your new addition.

Hey Ryan,

Yup, still alive and, yeah, I’ve been really busy. I can’t blame it all on the new little guy, though. Work (grant writing, mostly) has been 7 days a week since June. Ugh. I’ll be back to speaker building about now. A nice change.

[chasw98]

I’ll be back to speaker building about now. A nice change.

He posts! :T :T ;x( ;x(

Good to see you can still type! :B :rofl:

[A9X]

Do you have some extensions? What's the biggest rip width you can do, or cross cut depth?

The widest I have personally ever made would be about 450-500mm. Never needed wider. I have two adjustable height ball roller thingies that could support wider panels if needed. I got them for cheap but have never used them except for an experimental tryout; seemed to work OK.

It was not my intention to "pick on" anyone's tools, but it looked so small sitting on the shelf! Hey, I'm the guy they usually make fun of because I have a big Ryobi, and a lot of the DIY crowd at some forums figures you need to have a big Rigid or Delta contractor's saw that weighs 350 lb or more due to it's cast iron tables and large induction motor. If it meets your needs, I can certainly understand the space issues- that's why I have a BT3100 and a 22811, which can interchange parts, including fence, tables, router accessories, sliding miter table, etc.

I know you weren't 'knocking' anything, but this is a neat little tool. I picked up mine with the stand, basically NIB at a charity sale for a sporting organisation for the equivalent of about $US60.

Large panels, such as for my bigger speakers I get cut at a factory that has hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in large accurate cutting gear and I get about 0.5mm consistency from them and the cost is far less than I need to spend for larger cutting gear. My little Ryobi is working well for cutting all the little (B&W) matrix type bracing sections internally. Later I will also re-make some enclosures for my Celestion Ditton 15's as they are ugly at the moment and $30 in wood and some time could rejuvenate these nicely. Thinking thick baffles and faceted faces like Gravesen's Ektas.

You can build perfectly good cabinets with a hand-held circular saw and a router with a flush-trim bit. Draw a line, cut close to the line with the saw and trim using the router with a straightedge (factory MDF edge) clamped on the line.

That's how I've been doing it.

[augerpro]

Jon are these going to be at Tom's during RMAF?

[JonMarsh]

yes - still working on them, but they will be there- might be fine tuning the crossovers after I get there!

Had a very busy work week last week, with business travel, so I'm behind the eight ball and catching up. But last minute items have come in, even back-ordered stuff from Madisound; I just finished filing out the holes for one of the binding post plates for the Vampire posts I'm using, and have just cut port tubes and crossover boards. Am deferring completing the finishing work, even some veneering.

92 out on the patio at 12:30 PM. I'll be bringing out a whole system.

I think this is the wackiest thing I've tried to do in years! Probably a good sign...

[augerpro]

Cool, I'm loolking forward to hearing the these more than any of the speakers at RMAF!

[Hdale85]

I love those Vampire binding posts. Put some in the chip amp I was working on a while back and they are quite nice.

[JonMarsh]

Me too! Obviously, my motivation is a bit different... W
Of course, this is just a first pass on the crossover- we'll see whether this turns out more like a NatalieP or NeoD CC (the former just seemed spot on from modeling, measurement, and sims- didn't touch a thing in the finished design.) The NeoD took a second full pass, but there were measurement and design issues on the first pass (trying to use SW when my LspCAD dongle was temporarily lost).

One thing that does give me pause for thought is whether there will be any issues around "break-in"- my NeoD's sounded their best after a few weeks at home after they were built. Well, we'll just have to give it a whirl and see how the cards fall.

[fjhuerta]

Up early again today, to resume my work on the Ardents. Yesterday, while I was in the big Orange store looking for a heat gun (found one, a Ryobi with electronic heat control), I came across this dinky portable 10" saw on a shelf. I figure that if, when I die, I wind up in the nether regions, my Sisyphean task for eternity will be trying to build Ardents with this dinky saw- how they can make a full 10" blade table saw that looks like it would almost slip into a back pack is beyond me...



But it also captures a bit of the feeling I have right now, trying to complete this project on time to leave for Denver! :W

Minus the phone camera blur, this is what it really looks like.



I think it might have a working deck big enough to handle a Modula MT or SR71, but I don't think anything much bigger- a NeoD CC front baffle might be pushing it... :W

That's my table! and I built my open back dipoles with it

EDIT: It's about as accurate as.. awww. I can't think of a proper analogy. It's quite inaccurate.

[JonMarsh]

Working away on the Ardents, base plates and crossovers.

Today, I'm giving up the 50th anniversary open house at the Livermore Airport, with WWII aircraft, and the car show downtown.

BTW, for any classical music lovers among you, some of the new DG recordings have turned over a new leaf- no multi-mic mess for a change, just a clean stereo setup and good setup of the players! No more so is this evident than the Yundi Li Prokofiev and Ravel releases with Seiji Ozawa and the Berliner Philharmoniker- a superb recording and performance, and a return to what DG should be capable of!

[Johnloudb]

Working away on the Ardents, base plates and crossovers.

Today, I'm giving up the 50th anniversary open house at the Livermore Airport, with WWII aircraft, and the car show downtown.

:cry: but think of all the fun you're going to have at the RMAF!

BTW, for any classical music lovers among you, some of the new DG recordings have turned over a new leaf- no multi-mic mess for a change, just a clean stereo setup and good setup of the players! No more so is this evident than the Yundi Li Prokofiev and Ravel releases with Seiji Ozawa and the Berliner Philharmoniker- a superb recording and performance, and a return to what DG should be capable of!

That's great news. And my dad has really been in to Prokofiev's music lately, so I'll have to get one for him.

[JonMarsh]

If you do, he should enjoy it- it's a fine disk. I listened to it at lunch again today.




Bases mostly wrapped up for today- it's one of those jobs you could do with a hand drill guided drill brace, but in this case I was glad to have the benchtop Ryobi drill press- made it easy creating a template guide in phenolic for both the bases and cabinets, and drilling the actual pieces was a cake walk- even the connector bolt through holes which are 2-1/2" deep The metric threaded inserts worked fine with the same 3/8" pilot hole, just not as deep! I used a DeWalt piloting bit that has an inner pilot drill, and is titanium coated.

[---k---]

Jon,

With all the effort you're going through with these to get them finished and to Denver, I think you should sneak them into RMAF and set them up in one of your buddies room.

[JonMarsh]

THAT would be hilarious, especially if I could sneak in a whole system! Now, maybe the fun thing would be to do some "strategic positioning"- who would it be fun to be setup next to? As a distraction?

Somehow I don't think the joint Ayre/Avalon dealer display will let me in, though...

What we really need is a "DIY Rulz" section at the show- could broaden the appeal beyond strange horn based systems and tons of vinyl.

I'll be looking up the usuals when I'm there, of course, Jim Salk, Rick Craig, etc- I've got a couple of seminars penciled in we "need" to make, including one on Computer Audio that ought to be "interesting" (as in the Chinese curse, may you live in "interesting" times). I really need to sit down with the exhibitor list and develop and organized plan, but building the Ardent's comes first- our visit plan can wait until the eve of the show.

[Curly Woods]

THAT would be hilarious, especially if I could sneak in a whole system! Now, maybe the fun thing would be to do some "strategic positioning"- who would it be fun to be setup next to? As a distraction?

Somehow I don't think the joint Ayre/Avalon dealer display will let me in, though...

What we really need is a "DIY Rulz" section at the show- could broaden the appeal beyond strange horn based systems and tons of vinyl.

I'll be looking up the usuals when I'm there, of course, Jim Salk, Rick Craig, etc- I've got a couple of seminars penciled in we "need" to make, including one on Computer Audio that ought to be "interesting" (as in the Chinese curse, may you live in "interesting" times). I really need to sit down with the exhibitor list and develop and organized plan, but building the Ardent's comes first- our visit plan can wait until the eve of the show.

Now that is an excellent idea. Now where do the funds come from for such an extravaganza

[---k---]

Let that slacker Thomas develop the plan for what booths you visit.

I would think that these are going to look & sound so good that the boys at Ayre & Avalon would mistake them for their own. No problem. Have Chuck and Thomas distract them and you and Brandon sneak them in.

A DIY booth would be really cool. Any clue on how much a booth goes for? I'm not sure I'm dedicated enough to this hobby to spend my own money to show it off, but it would be fun.

[augerpro]

Lol

[bigg]

Let that slacker Thomas develop the plan for what booths you visit.

I would think that these are going to look & sound so good that the boys at Ayre & Avalon would mistake them for their own.

And they would think-- Hot damn!!! We really outdid ourselves this time!!!

I mean-- If my wife thinks my humble efforts are better than most she's heard and as good as the best high end she's heard--- and bearing mind that I barely know what I'm doing--These Ardents have got to be better than the Avalons. ;x(

[JonMarsh]

Well, I'm NOT a professional cabinet maker, so in that regard, Avalon has no worries what so ever! And with the time crunch I haven't completed veneering of both cabinets, and haven't done any finishing except a quick spray on the bases. Just enough to keep them clean. For moving them, they'll be wrapped in mover's wrap, like you get on a rolling pin at the moving places, and with moving blankets.

If I can match or better Avalon acoustically, it's only because of the Duelund crossover concept and the lower distortion woofers and tweeters I'm using, and a very different cabinet tuning (the Avalons don't really have any useful acoustical output from their port, it's used more like an aperiodic vent, and the cabinet F3 is about 55 Hz and rolling off below that).

OK, what's REALLY weird to me in one sense right now, almost surreal, is how good the NeoD CC's sound with the current pile of electronics and cables driving them- if I'd have known they could sound this good, I wouldn't have had as much impetus for building the Ardents. This setup would do quite well against many things I heard at RMAF in 2007. Of course, I'm cheating. But then anyone exhibiting there should be putting every advantage forward, too.


But it also makes me eager to get them fired up- it's just that trying to do a meticulous job on most aspects, I'm definitely in the slow work takes time zone.

[bigg]

I am by no means a professional cabinet maker or speaker builder. I have a minimal experience of electronics (telephone switching equipment, battery backup systems and toll systems installer with minimal engineering in those areas). So, as they say, I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

I was laid off from the last phone company I worked for seven years ago. I've only been building speakers for three years. And then-- only when I had funds for the parts and time on the weekends to work on them. When I started, I hastily designed, on paper and very poorly, all kinds of elaborate, expensive speaker systems. I even bought several high end drivers and crossover parts thinking I was going to build the ultimate system from my poorly done designs. :roll: I quickly became discouraged and sold the drivers and crossover parts (most of them anyway).

Now, because of layoffs and plant shutdowns, I have had to sell most of my shop equipment. Consequently most of my work is now done with a jig saw, router, finishing sander, variable speed drill, various hand saws, planes, foam backed sandpaper, sanding blocks and sandpaper. I hope to acquire a nice circular saw to use with a saw table I have designed.

In spite of all this, I love this hobby! And I thank all of you for your invaluable assistance. ;x( Eventually I will post pictures of my speakers I have built. And pictures of my saw table, my clamping table and rolling work tables. :T

When I walk into the half of my two car garage that is my shop, I feel like I'm really home at last.

[Hdale85]

Honestly Jon I think your cabinet making skills are probably on par with a lot of these higher end companies.

[Dave Bullet]

I am by no means a professional cabinet maker or speaker builder. I have a minimal experience of electronics (telephone switching equipment, battery backup systems and toll systems installer with minimal engineering in those areas). So, as they say, I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

I was laid off from the last phone company I worked for seven years ago. I've only been building speakers for three years. And then-- only when I had funds for the parts and time on the weekends to work on them. When I started, I hastily designed, on paper and very poorly, all kinds of elaborate, expensive speaker systems. I even bought several high end drivers and crossover parts thinking I was going to build the ultimate system from my poorly done designs. :roll: I quickly became discouraged and sold the drivers and crossover parts (most of them anyway).

Now, because of layoffs and plant shutdowns, I have had to sell most of my shop equipment. Consequently most of my work is now done with a jig saw, router, finishing sander, variable speed drill, various hand saws, planes, foam backed sandpaper, sanding blocks and sandpaper. I hope to acquire a nice circular saw to use with a saw table I have designed.

In spite of all this, I love this hobby! And I thank all of you for your invaluable assistance. ;x( Eventually I will post pictures of my speakers I have built. And pictures of my saw table, my clamping table and rolling work tables. :T

When I walk into the half of my two car garage that is my shop, I feel like I'm really home at last.

Greater credit to those who achieve with less :T

[JonMarsh]

The details take a surprising amount of time...

At least it always seems to me- I think, oh yeah, I'll put in the threaded inserts and wire up the drivers in no time-



But there's the stripping and prep, tinning, wire tie downs, etc.

It's like a paraphrase of the old horror movie...

Slowly I build... step by step... inch by inch. :W

And knowing I'm going to have to take these back apart to finish them doesn't help!! :lol:

[Hdale85]

Mmmmm...those sure are looking gorgeous. I know what you mean about taking apart to finish! It's got to be the hardest thing to do.

[Biermann]

Looking Great! Jon,

What are your plans on the finish??

[bigg]

Honestly Jon I think your cabinet making skills are probably on par with a lot of these higher end companies.

I agree! :agree:

[bigg]

Hey Jon,
Is that the Kimber 4TC on your woofers?

I mentioned to Madisound that I would like it if they carried the Kimber Kable product line and they replied that they would like to but that Kimber's ordering policies made it hard for them to do. :cry:

[Curly Woods]

Hey Jon,
Is that the Kimber 4TC on your woofers?

I mentioned to Madisound that I would like it if they carried the Kimber Kable product line and they replied that they would like to but that Kimber's ordering policies made it hard for them to do. :cry:

I believe that it is Cardas Crosslink.

[JonMarsh]

I believe that it is Cardas Crosslink.

Correct. Cardas Cross link on the woofers, Cardas SE-9 on the midrange and tweeter, for the lower inductance.

[JonMarsh]

Looking Great! Jon,

What are your plans on the finish??

Just going to be a basic lacquer finish, clear on the birdseye and figured maple looks pretty nice- did some test pieces, and liked how they came out.

[Bear]

OK, what's REALLY weird to me in one sense right now, almost surreal, is how good the NeoD CC's sound with the current pile of electronics and cables driving them- if I'd have known they could sound this good, I wouldn't have had as much impetus for building the Ardents. This setup would do quite well against many things I heard at RMAF in 2007. Of course, I'm cheating. But then anyone exhibiting there should be putting every advantage forward, too.

I think I may just have to finally build one or five of these, then. I really hate my current commercial CC, but I can't squeeze in the time to even finish assembling the pair of new front speakers I've got waiting for me. Hopefully I'll finish both before you post the LBL MTM design or the revised CC design you mentioned potentially starting to work on.

[JonMarsh]

working away... double checking measurements & crossovers...

[CraigJ]

Congratulations, that looks Fantastic! arty:

Wish I could hear them, as well as the No Quarters, this weekend.

Craig

btw, if they sound half a good as they look, I may have to sell something in order to build them.

[---k---]

working away... double checking measurements & crossovers...

Your mic looks a little off center and low.