Ardent Speaker Camp

[Paul Ebert]

I don't want to launch a digital vs. analog war (are we past that by now?), but I'll share my personal thoughts based on being a vinyl collector for a long time. Of course, ymmv 8)

The biggest thing one can do to eliminate ticks and pops is to have a good turntable / tonearm. When I say 'good' I mean like a Linn or better. I was amazed when I went from my original Philips (GA 514 or something like that) to a Rega 2 and again when I went from the Rega to a Linn. Discs that I had thought were abysmal suddenly were much better, sometimes even noise free. When I first got the Rega, I couldn't believe it made such a difference, but it was obvious to everyone I demonstrated it to and consistently repeatable. There was less of an improvement when I went to my DIY Teres (though dramatic improvements were gained elsewhere, especially dynamics and bass). Also, having a good tangential arm gets rid of most inner groove nasties.

The other huge factor is when the vinyl was made. In my experience, the best vinyl was made in the 80s to the present (think Harmonia Mundi, Water Lily, Reference Recordings, certain late Deccas, Speakers Corner reissues). Absolutely subterranian noise floors. Spooky at times. The worst was during the oil shortage. Early vinyl (the shaded dogs and mercury living presence discs, for example) was occasionally very good due to the thickness of the discs, but often the pressings were poor.

Digital is very nice in that it is consistent, convenient, and generally high, if not exceptional, quality. On the other hand, my CD player is nothing special and warrants a big upgrade one of these days. Perhaps I'll be amazed again, when I get around to that.

Again, just my personal opinions...

In regards to the disc in question, I bet it was recorded digitally, so I wouldn't expect the vinyl to be much better (and it might be worse).

[JonMarsh]

I have a theory, that if you're looking for audiophile quality playback, that is, top flight imaging, natural transient envelope reproduction, and a transparent midrange, you can probably get better performance for you money in the $1,000 to $4,000 range with vinyl, if you're willing to deal with the sometime minor, sometimes not so minor issues around surface noise on disk, peak distortion levels, etc. As I recounted elsewhere this week, one of the absolute best systems I ever had in that regard was in the late 70s obviously with vinyl.

Of course, these days vinyl can be quite expensive- perhaps even more so than top of the line digital, if you go by some of the published prices for reference gear. And it's hard to match the convenience of digital, especially now that both turnkey and DIY digital music systems with HD storage are fairly accessible- I wouldn't want to give up mine, it makes CD access look like dealing with vinyl in comparison! But sometimes folks do like those little rituals, you know?

I think that digital is just starting to really come of age- after 25 years- think of how long vinyl has been around and evolving.

Because of the limitations of much of CD playback, with conventional equipment and the known time envelope distortions (pre-ringing, for example), even assuming the Stanley Clarke disk was recorded in digital (which would probably mean 24/192 or 24/24/356 or DSD these days), the vinyl playback might still be better in a "mid priced" system- certainly at the level you're talking about, Paul. Gear like the Meridian 808.2 player, the Spectral SDR-4000, the PS Audio PWT and PWD, the Ayre QB9 DAC, and the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC show a certain convergence of direction and concepts with varying degrees of success and cost to address some still remaining fundamental problems with CD playback. "Perfect Sound Forever" as the original slogan for CD should probably have been (under truth in advertising rules) re-written as "Perfect Sound Someday, maybe". We're a lot closer to that day than 3-5 years ago, and even short of the Olympian prices some of the gear I just mentioned commands, pretty decent sound can be had for relatively modest amounts of money, referred back to the value of the dollar in the late 70s.

But sometimes pretty decent isn't good enough. :W

[Paul Ebert]

Agreed. My current CD source is a Sony DVP-7000 that I picked up used for $150, iirc. I figured I would start looking into a good DAC at some point - probably mid-priced in the realm we're discussing. As a starting point, I like the Twisted Pear offerings. I've assumed that my Sony would make an adequate transport for a while.

But, what you state about DIY digital music systems is intriguing. Perhaps I should skip the CD upgrade path and go that route. My kids keep telling me I should start digitally recording my LPs. It'd be kinda ironic if instead I recorded my (100 or so) CDs instead. I'd be very interested in what you might suggest for such a system. But, perhaps that's another thread.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I'm getting ready to experiment in that vein, with software from Channel D corporation called "Pure vinyl"- but I'm going to use it to try recording/analog rip SACD! I've got a lot of single layer SACD with no CD hybrid layer I'd like to bring into the music server concept, as well as back up in some form- there's also a possibility of a digital conversion/rip, but I don't have the funds to support even a moderate investigation (would require a new player and a special board installed in player which converts DSD to high resolution PCM).

We should start a separate thread on that topic- probably in Audio Hideout. :W

I bought a DVP S7000 brand new as a DVD player, and gave it to ThomasW while it was still fairly new (got a newer Toshiba at that time with audio decoding built in). The jitter on that unit is pretty high based on test reports.

I've found the current Cambridge Audio CD players to be good value, especially the 640/650 as transports, with fairly low specified output jitter- might be something to look into- they use a decent setup with Wolfson DACs that sound pretty fair. I haven't listened to the analog output, just using it as a transport, but it's rated highly for the price class.

[Face]

I found the 540C and 840C very clean and transparent, but also a little thin. It almost seems that there's a suckout in the mid and upper bass. I compared a 840C to a DacMagic and found the DacMagic was fuller and imaged better, but was not as transparent.

[JonMarsh]

Got Parts?

I've heard others say they thought the 840C was a bit thin in the midrange or upper bass. Of course, that may only be in comparison to what they are used to- giving a judgement as to what is correct and what isn't is not a walk in the park.

Then, imagine what you might do to that judgement just by swapping speaker cables- I'd rather not even go there- even for the same brand! (Say, Cardas Golden Reference versus Cardas Golden Presence- which are distinctly different in presentation in the midrange and top to bottom octave balance).

Anyway, that's all off topic.

But this isn't....



And you know what this means- time to break out the hot glue gun and soldering iron!!! By the way, those big blue suckers that are about the size of the Dayton 100 uF are just 8.2 uF MR Clarity's, forthose who might be curious. :B

[kravi4ka]

I cannot take my eyes off that picture Jon, I feel like a young pirate who has just found a treasure chest... 8O 8O 8O

[augerpro]

What brand of resistors are those Jon?

[ThomasW]

The small reddish brown ones are Mills

[JonMarsh]

Arghh matey, maybe he means the big shiny golden ones, Tyco 100W power resistors for the LF zobels. :B

And a pirates ransom all these little pretties cost.... I'll be banned from the forum soon, for DIY that costs more than commercial!

And after that, Thomas and Hank will arrange an intervention at RMAF culminating in involuntary commitment, I fear.... nurse Pratchett and I will be best of friends yet!

[ThomasW]

Arghh matey

Yo dude, you're one day early.... :B

[JonMarsh]

Oh my god.....

It's Kravi4ka's fault... he made me do i!

[kravi4ka]

I take full responsibility... For everything...

Jon, after seeing that pile of stuff I must say I am a happy man, there is at least one guy on the planet that has all the toys, makes me relaxed and wise, thanks for showing that! Now I can't wait to see the SDX-2, I don't even need to hear it, having the NeoDccF playing the 9th Symphony here

[ColoradoTom]

Well here's my picture of the day....

Based upon a previous discussion in the thread I've labeled it resonate, non-resonate, and refreshment.

Those are the two bottles of "Avalon" wine I'll bring to ThomasW's house to listen to the Ardents if I'm still invited......

Finished the bed and coffee table (matching the entertainment center) and have one more bed to go before I can get back to some speaker building, looks like I'll finish just about the time that Jon starts publishing the design!!

Tom

[Face]

That looks like my spare parts bin, but swap some silver caps for blue.

Very nice Jon!

[Curly Woods]

I guess those MR caps are for the tweeter circuit. Can't wait for the final notes and BOM on the project :-)

[JonMarsh]

Ola Tom!

Is that one of the Beatle Remaster box sets sitting off to the right?

Believe me, you're still invited- good to hear from you, and glad to hear you've been making great progress on the furniture! I'm still in a race to the wire on completing my little pretties, but one way or the other they will come out, even if I'm finishing wiring crossovers in the basement while I'm there. I'm bringing a complete system, too, as you may have heard - actually more like a couple of systems, and there's another surprise possible, depending on work time available.

I just got majorly distracted- I finally found my misplaced copy of "The Kings James Version" Sheffield Labs CD, which was produced from a safety tape made when they recorded the direct to disk LP in 1976, which I used to have, and was something of a reference recording for big band music, life like dynamics, and imaging. Well, I just listened to "Corner Pocket" through the new DAC, and it was definitely goose bump time- it's never sounded this close to the original LP before! Still listening to the album while sitting way off to the side, and I swear it images even at 80 degrees off axis! :W

Seriously, brass and big band music are a b*tch to reproduce on CD, generally very unsatisfactory, and this is something special- at least for me. "Don't be that way" is playing now, and it's pretty righteous, too. As is "Sweet Georgia Brown".

OK, you guys probably wouldn't understand why I'm getting excited, but if you were into big band music or had past experience with Sheffield disks (both LP and CD) you'd probably get the significance. I'll make a copy and bring it out for auditioning. The CD has never held a candle to the LP before- now it's in the ballpark. The midrange, dynamics, top to bottom clarity, and impact have never been like this from this CD before.

Just checked for availability of this CD- jeez, forget about it- good used copies in the $80 to $98 range. Some of the other Sheffield CD's at Acoustic Sounds- might have to pick some up. A bunch of "pre-owned" Sheffield LPs, at amazingly high prices.

[ColoradoTom]

Ola Tom!

Is that one of the Beatle Remaster box sets sitting off to the right?

Believe me, you're still invited- good to hear from you, and glad to hear you've been making great progress on the furniture! I'm still in a race to the wire on completing my little pretties, but one way or the other they will come out, even if I'm finishing wiring crossovers in the basement while I'm there. I'm bringing a complete system, too, as you may have heard - actually more like a couple of systems, and there's another surprise possible, depending on work time available.

I just got majorly distracted- I finally found my misplaced copy of "The Kings James Version" Sheffield Labs CD, which was produced from a safety tape made when they recorded the direct to disk LP in 1976, which I used to have, and was something of a reference recording for big band music, life like dynamics, and imaging. Well, I just listened to "Corner Pocket" through the new DAC, and it was definitely goose bump time- it's never sounded this close to the original LP before! Still listening to the album while sitting way off to the side, and I swear it images even at 80 degrees off axis! :W

Seriously, brass and big band music are a b*tch to reproduce on CD, generally very unsatisfactory, and this is something special- at least for me. "Don't be that way" is playing now, and it's pretty righteous, too. As is "Sweet Georgia Brown".

OK, you guys probably wouldn't understand why I'm getting excited, but if you were into big band music or had past experience with Sheffield disks (both LP and CD) you'd probably get the significance. I'll make a copy and bring it out for auditioning. The CD has never held a candle to the LP before- now it's in the ballpark. The midrange, dynamics, top to bottom clarity, and impact have never been like this from this CD before.

Just checked for availability of this CD- jeez, forget about it- good used copies in the $80 to $98 range. Some of the other Sheffield CD's at Acoustic Sounds- might have to pick some up. A bunch of "pre-owned" Sheffield LPs, at amazingly high prices.

Well good to hear things are moving along (somewaht) as planned.

Yes... those are Beatles re-mastered and they sound great. My girls and I have been going throught them an album at a time on the drive to/from school and we are currently waiting on the mono versions.

Here's a picture with my current guitar of choice.

So... can you identify the non-beatles albums??? Hopefull the resolution isn't too bad (or your eyes getting too old - a joke as I just celebrated a birthday as well)

Tom

[Johnloudb]

Well here's my picture of the day....

Those are the two bottles of "Avalon" wine I'll bring to ThomasW's house to listen to the Ardents if I'm still invited......

Tom

Tom, I see a Sound Lab Millenium M-1PX in the wine picture! I'm in serious speaker envy now!!! ;x( ;x( ;x(

[ThomasW]

A CD to listen

[JonMarsh]

I certainly recognize the one on the right above the Deluxe Hofner bass (not to be confused with a vintage '63 or '63 re-issue). And the center one appears to be the Creme de la Creme sampler CD from Sheffield Labs; that's a pretty rare item, I've never even seen one in the flesh. (but I've never met anyone else before that had the Harry James, either- I don't get around enough). On the left is Lincoln Mayorga and Amanda McBroom- another one I read about but have never seen.

I've got three of the Beatle remasters- just did a "sampler" order from Amazon, but will get more now, having heard those. :W

[ThomasW]

And the center one appears to be the Creme de la Creme sampler CD from Sheffield Labs; that's a pretty rare item, I've never even seen one in the flesh.

Here ya go....

http://www.amazon.com/Creme-Various-Artists/dp/B00008FRB0/ref=pd_cp_m_1

[ColoradoTom]

Here ya go....
http://www.amazon.com/Creme-Various-.../ref=pd_cp_m_1

Yup ..... you guys are good, or perhaps we're showing our age!! I still have some of the record albums from Sheffield as well...

I've updated my VPI turntable and I'm working on a custom base (walnut burl)... just got a James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt release on vinyl and have to agree with previous statements that the current releases are much quieter than I remember in the past....

The Sound Labs aren't the PX versions.... They are the original M1's.

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Up early again today, to resume my work on the Ardents. Yesterday, while I was in the big Orange store looking for a heat gun (found one, a Ryobi with electronic heat control), I came across this dinky portable 10" saw on a shelf. I figure that if, when I die, I wind up in the nether regions, my Sisyphean task for eternity will be trying to build Ardents with this dinky saw- how they can make a full 10" blade table saw that looks like it would almost slip into a back pack is beyond me...



But it also captures a bit of the feeling I have right now, trying to complete this project on time to leave for Denver! :W

Minus the phone camera blur, this is what it really looks like.



I think it might have a working deck big enough to handle a Modula MT or SR71, but I don't think anything much bigger- a NeoD CC front baffle might be pushing it... :W

[Bear]

So, is that the real thing or one of its much-less-talented siblings? Having one in Sears livery with the wheels means my ability to recognize a BT3k is a little weak. (I also thought Team Orange quit carrying the good one in-store...)

[JonMarsh]

No, it's not the real thing, it's one of the itty bitty portable saws- it's tiny and a real clunker- no detectable BT3100 DNA! How they both can be 10" table saws from the same company is a mystery to me! BTW, I do like my Sears version, too- it's done a lot of good work, though as I say there are are some other bits grafted on! :W

[bigg]

I'd recommend going with the Seas- which one did you want to use? I can update this easily, as I have measured data for this configuration with several tweeters, can do the 27TBFCG, too. Just let me know which configuration(s) you need. The XT-25 is not a happy camper down low at higher volume- the 27TDFC or 27TBFCG are better choices. Now, if you want spend a teensy bit more money, I'd recommend the D2608/913000, the replacement for the Peerless HDS tweeter.

Would the crossover need to be reworked for the Peerless tweeter in that design? :?:

[JonMarsh]

I'd recommend going with the Seas- which one did you want to use? I can update this easily, as I have measured data for this configuration with several tweeters, can do the 27TBFCG, too. Just let me know which configuration(s) you need. The XT-25 is not a happy camper down low at higher volume- the 27TDFC or 27TBFCG are better choices. Now, if you want spend a teensy bit more money, I'd recommend the D2608/913000, the replacement for the Peerless HDS tweeter.

Would the crossover need to be reworked for the Peerless tweeter in that design? :?:

Somewhat- the D2608 has a slow roll off that's not the same as the seas- but it's not a big deal, and I have measured data for it on the right size baffle - just let me know.

[A9X]

Minus the phone camera blur, this is what it really looks like.

I have one of those and it's a good little unit. I get large panels cut at a factory that specialises in cutting large panels so I get accuracy, and the cost is minimal over and above the wood cost. The Ryobi does all the smaller jobs such as the matrix style internal bracing.

Not everyone has the space nor the budget or the need for larger saw benches. The Ryobi is excellent for what it does, and it fits in the corner of my apartment garage when not being used.

Oh, and none of the speakers I have under construction are small. AE 15" (mains) and JBL 18" (sides/rears) units are used for LF and the Maelstrom 18 will eventually be built into an end table type sub.

[JonMarsh]

Do you have some extensions? What's the biggest rip width you can do, or cross cut depth?

It was not my intention to "pick on" anyone's tools, but it looked so small sitting on the shelf! Hey, I'm the guy they usually make fun of because I have a big Ryobi, and a lot of the DIY crowd at some forums figures you need to have a big Rigid or Delta contractor's saw that weighs 350 lb or more due to it's cast iron tables and large induction motor. If it meets your needs, I can certainly understand the space issues- that's why I have a BT3100 and a 22811, which can interchange parts, including fence, tables, router accessories, sliding miter table, etc.

[Dennis H]

You can build perfectly good cabinets with a hand-held circular saw and a router with a flush-trim bit. Draw a line, cut close to the line with the saw and trim using the router with a straightedge (factory MDF edge) clamped on the line. The only thing big tools buy you is speed and that's not really that big a deal if you're only building one or two cabinets as opposed to hundreds or thousands of them.

[Hdale85]

Going to have a hard time building these cabinets with a circular saw though

[Dennis H]

Going to have a hard time building these cabinets with a circular saw though

Not really if you have a chamfer bit for the router and cut the baffle pieces before you glue them together. It's not the tool, it's the guy running the tool. You could do it with a handsaw and a hand plane if you were determined enough (thinking an Amish guy with a big hat and suspenders).

[Hdale85]

Hah yeah I suppose that is true. The chamfer thing would be a pain.......of course the hand saw and a hand plane wouldn't be that great either.

[JonMarsh]

I've built folded horn bass bins for PA when I was younger, using just a circular saw, a saber saw, and a drill. So I know whereof Dennis speaks. Haven't tried doing it with just a hand saw and a plane. Do still have a plane and use it a fair amount. :W

And I never had a big hat and suspenders. Just jeans and a T-shirt.

[ColoradoTom]

Not really if you have a chamfer bit for the router and cut the baffle pieces before you glue them together. It's not the tool, it's the guy running the tool. You could do it with a handsaw and a hand plane if you were determined enough (thinking an Amish guy with a big hat and suspenders).

Well, I'm thinking if you added up the time required in learning to build to the skill level of those guys using a handsaw and plane.... a table saw would be considered cheap. :lol:

The one thing a table saw gives you is repeatability, once setup you can produce a large number of pieces EXACTLY the same length/width. The only way to easily do that with a router is to build a pattern and then use a pattern bit to cut the remaining pieces - a bit of a pain in the arse if a large number of panels is required! If I had to build my original M8ta's with a handsaw, plane, and router I'd probably still be building them. :rofl:

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Heck, I'd still be working on building mine!! If I hadn't just given up...

I'm fundamentally lazy and pressed for time- that's why I'm such a tool queen, to help save time and do things more accurately and quicker. In SPITE of that, I still am too slow, and screw up too much!!! :E ops:

Without my tools, I don't know where I'd be...

[penngray]

Up early again today, to resume my work on the Ardents. Yesterday, while I was in the big Orange store looking for a heat gun (found one, a Ryobi with electronic heat control), I came across this dinky portable 10" saw on a shelf. I figure that if, when I die, I wind up in the nether regions, my Sisyphean task for eternity will be trying to build Ardents with this dinky saw- how they can make a full 10" blade table saw that looks like it would almost slip into a back pack is beyond me...



But it also captures a bit of the feeling I have right now, trying to complete this project on time to leave for Denver! :W

Minus the phone camera blur, this is what it really looks like.



I think it might have a working deck big enough to handle a Modula MT or SR71, but I don't think anything much bigger- a NeoD CC front baffle might be pushing it... :W

Hey, I use that saw...I think its an incredible value V Cuts clean and fast, extends upto 36", its been great for almost a year for me.

[JonMarsh]

Hey, I use that saw...I think its an incredible value V Cuts clean and fast, extends upto 36", its been great for almost a year for me.

Mea culpa, as I mentioned earlier, it was not my intention to dis anyone's tools. But to vent my feeling about how difficult it would be to do this project with this particular saw- I think it's the smallest 10" portable I've ever seen!

[penngray]

Mea culpa, as I mentioned earlier, it was not my intention to dis anyone's tools. But to vent my feeling about how difficult it would be to do this project with this particular saw- I think it's the smallest 10" portable I've ever seen!

No worries, I didnt think you where dissing it much either Although I just realized I have the one model up from that truely portable one, mine extends out to 36" that one doesnt...its cheap and portable though.

Im just a humble lurker on this forum so back to your build. I have been following it all summer and I can not wait for the end results, Im trying to learn as much as I can from you guys.

[JonMarsh]

Back on topic a bit- status

Well, my mis-adventures continue, a constant evolutionary learning process.

The facet veneering technique has stabilized and been used successfully even when the substrate preparation is less than idea (i.e., not perfectly flat, or less than +/- 0.005 run out.

The trick is to use a cut piece of 1/4" MDF board as the clamping panel, as it can flex a little, and to use foam core art board as a sandwich layer between the clamping board and the veneer. Works like a charm...

Also, veneering the facets is a total PITA with only one pair of hands. My solution is after masking and "painting" on the veneer glue with a roller, is to use the blue masking tape to tape the veneer in position, position a cable clamp in the center, and slide in the foam core board piece (cut a fresh one for every layup- the idea is that it crushes slightly, conforming to the substrate surface) and the clamp board, then snug up the first clamp. Then position the other clamps, and snug them all down pretty firmly.



This is what I recommend to Paul Ebert for dealing with the facets should he decide to veneer his cabinets. The Bessey strap clamps are wonderful for this job, and essential. I also bought extra corner gizmos- the bases on them swivel all around, and can handle practically any angle of construction.

Pull the clamps and boards off after about 3 hours so the veneer can dry out- it absorbs moisture from the glue.

Of course, you won't find this way of doing it in any SANE discussion of veneering technique, so unless you're a little crazy like me, spend the big bucks for a big veneering bag and vacuum pump.

Tools, tools, tools. :B

Typical results can be seen in this shot of an upper cabinet section after the side veneer has also been applied and trimmed:



yes, this operation with splicing together three strips of unbacked hardwood veneer is a bit of a PITA. Note the figuring in the maple veneer on the facet- I'm hoping it looks pretty nice once finishing is done.

Last, a pic of the bases after roundovers and flush trim of the rear; still have to do the through holes for the mounting bolts and finish and mount the points.

[penngray]

Do you use iron veneer glue?

[ColoradoTom]

Wow Jon..... that looks really good, you did cut the facets from the same sheet of veneer used for the fronts so that there would be a perfect match didn't you.... :B The idea of using the strap clamps is great. Perhaps using a glue that can be heat activated will help with any areas that don't get enought clamping pressure?

I have a vacuum bag system, but the thought of having to move speakers this heavy/large in and out of the bag is a little overwelming.

I'm starting on the process of removing the veneer from my M8ta project this weekend. I'll probably build a jig and chew off 1/8 to 1/4 inch with the router and then sand and re-apply veneer. : I'll probably veneer with some nice cherry that I have stashed away and then match the finish to the furniture in the family room and move them there.

Since I'm brining wine for you when you're here for RMAF what does ThomasW like?

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Do you use iron veneer glue?

No, this is a clamping process with solid wood veneer, using Titbond Cold press veneer glue. Iron on with PVA glue works pretty well with paper back veneer, but not with sold veneer as it curls once glue is applied.

[JonMarsh]

Wow Jon..... that looks really good, you did cut the facets from the same sheet of veneer used for the fronts so that there would be a perfect match didn't you.... :B The idea of using the strap clamps is great. Perhaps using a glue that can be heat activated will help with any areas that don't get enought clamping pressure?

I have a vacuum bag system, but the thought of having to move speakers this heavy/large in and out of the bag is a little overwelming.

I'm starting on the process of removing the veneer from my M8ta project this weekend. I'll probably build a jig and chew off 1/8 to 1/4 inch with the router and then sand and re-apply veneer. : I'll probably veneer with some nice cherry that I have stashed away and then match the finish to the furniture in the family room and move them there.

Since I'm brining wine for you when you're here for RMAF what does ThomasW like?

Tom

I have it on pretty good authority that Thomas likes dry Chianti's, though you may want to check with him about more specifics!!

The problem I've seen in first experiments is veneer curling if there isn't sufficient and uniform clamping pressure; using the foam core art board as like a crushable washer during the veneer clamping process seems to solve that OK.

One thing I definitely learned is that I would have been much better off choosing a darker wood, one closer to the same general tint as the veneer glue; it's sometimes very difficult to hide the seam completely. My test finishing pieces show that the problem is less obvious after finishing, but.... well, live and learn. If it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert in something, I've only got about 9,850 hours to go!!

But I really like how figured maple looks with some finish on it, how the grain patterns invert in light/dark patterns depending on the angle of viewing incidence.

And what the heck, these should sound pretty good... cross fingers. :W

So, when I do my Isis Klones at about 5,000 hours, I hope they turn out better!!

Wish I could watch you work on re-doing your M8tas- it would be like getting an in-service training, as the medical folks put it. I'm still thinking about converting mine to three ways with the RS58an midrange. Probably swap the tweeter to a D2608 SS if I do that.

OTOH, as Thomas points out, I'm going to be so burnt out by the time I finish these under the gun that I probably won't want to look at a router or soldering iron for a few months at the least! :W