Modula Xtreme follow up

[Hdale85]

Yeah, my friend's new listening room is smaller so he's looking for a high end bookshelf or possibly small tower of some sort. He has Paradigm Studio 60's right now and says they are just way to big for the space so trying to swing him towards some high end DIY bookshelves lol.

These do look really nice though And very interesting use of PE enclosures.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, my friend's new listening room is smaller so he's looking for a high end bookshelf or possibly small tower of some sort. He has Paradigm Studio 60's right now and says they are just way to big for the space so trying to swing him towards some high end DIY bookshelves lol.

These do look really nice though And very interesting use of PE enclosures.

Thanks for the kind words. Just wait till you see the piano black ones... about half way through sourcing stuff for those.

One combination that's crossed my mind, but would still be a stretch to develop is to combine the Accuton S220-6-222 8" ceramic cone driver with the Ciare MT320 in a two way, crossover around 1400", and using the P220 passive radiator with the S220. Of course, the stumbling block would most likely be price for most folks, as that 8" Accuton, with the underhung motor, is about $850. Much more practical I suppose to use two aluminum cone 7" Scanspeak. And I swore off 8" two ways back in 2004.



But the distortion profile of that 8" is quite nice, if the factory curves are to be believed (and for the ones I have measured, I do have good agreement with Accuton's new curves).



I think the key is their underhung motor design, pioneered on the C173N-T6-90, which I'm using, plus the damping techniques also pioneered on that part.

Still, for now, I can think of a lot of other things to do with the money... It would take some careful crossover work, too.

[Hdale85]

Yeah that's certainly on the pricey side! I bet they are great though. Well he might go with Jed's Accuton monitor that's paired with the AirCirc 6600. Believe it's in his price range and looks to be nice

You seem to have several high end designs going on at once, kind of curious how you feel about the Modula Xtreme vs the Ardents? Seems pricing might be similar although the Modula Xtreme's probably easier construction.

[JonMarsh]

On reflection...

A more reasonable way to go would be the 7" C173-6-096 with the underhung motor, at only $563 USD.







combined with the same 8" passive radiator. Or with an 8" SS revelator as a TMW 2.5 way, but that's a bigger box and more cost.

Also with the Ciare tweeter, though this one might get away with the HDS tweeter, and a higher crossover point (say, 2000 Hz).

[Hdale85]

Think the HDS would be up to par as far as quality? I've heard they are excellent though. I think a compact TMM or something might be interesting in a MTM enclosure or something if that's even possible. Seems monitor designs have been a bit scarce lately.

[Hank]

Speaking of extracting hirez audio from disc, how about this "de-embedder"? It takes HDMI input from your source, "de-embeds the stereo hirez 24/192 2 channel BlURay, or decoded SACD in 24/88.2 HiRez PCM, as well as up-to-24/192 DVD-Audio. It also passes the entire HDMI content on to a female HDMI out socket. It also includes 8 channels of analog output. The hi-rez stereo output is Toslink. If this works as well as the forum poster indicates, it would eliminate the need for top-end CD players and expensive work done by modders on the likes of the OPPO BDP83/83SE. Just use your OPPO as a transport. Not bad for $219: http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1....D-Support.html
Here's the forum thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.0 If I decide to buy a DAC, I think I'll also buy one of these.

[Bear]

A more reasonable way to go would be the 7" C173-6-096 with the underhung motor, at only $563 USD.

The "E" version may be slightly better, but that takes an already huge price and layers on the cost of a good ScanSpeak driver for good measure. :T

[Steve Goff]

Unfortunately, the Atlona unit cannot put out hi-res digital from its optical output, but only Dolby Digital and 2-channel PCM. It seems to decode hi-res formats for its analog outputs. I think Shawn's transceiver board has been used with this unit to put out hi-res digital audio via multiple s/pdif.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah that's certainly on the pricey side! I bet they are great though. Well he might go with Jed's Accuton monitor that's paired with the AirCirc 6600. Believe it's in his price range and looks to be nice

You seem to have several high end designs going on at once, kind of curious how you feel about the Modula Xtreme vs the Ardents? Seems pricing might be similar although the Modula Xtreme's probably easier construction.

The Modula Xtreme is much more expensive than the current version of the Ardents, though I fear the Ardents will be catching up a bit, if the tests this weekend on the aluminum 7" Illuminator woofers go as hoped.

Presentation wise, comparing the existing version of the Ardents to the Modula Xtreme, the Ardent has a wider, more uniform power response, especially vertically, so it sounds better in the next room, for example, on some kinds of material. The Modula Xtreme is more focused, though quite good off axis in the highs due to the Waveguide. The Xtreme is confortable at SPL's where currently the lower end of the Ardent is a bit strained. That may change with the upgrades. Or not. Obviously, 2 10's with 9mm Xmax can move a lot of air compared to any pair of 7's. The SS 10's are very low distortion, too.

Both systems are undergoing evaluation for upgrades, and a new cabinet set is in progress for the Xtremes, with possibly a new tweeter and waveguide. If the planned upgrade on the Ardent works out, I'd like to have them wrapped by the end of September. Hopefully that's not too optimistic, but the way work has been, with no vacation time, it may be.

[JonMarsh]

The "E" version may be slightly better, but that takes an already huge price and layers on the cost of a good ScanSpeak driver for good measure. :T

Yup! But it's cheaper than $850 for the "good" 8" Accuton!

I'll keep you posted on how these work out.





I'm finding over the recent years I really like the sound and performance of good underhung motors.

[TacoD]

Yup! But it's cheaper than $850 for the "good" 8" Accuton!

I'll keep you posted on how these work out.





I'm finding over the recent years I really like the sound and performance of good underhung motors.

Do these have enough spl? Also with Scanspeak you need huge cabinets or flux capacitors to get enough low end.

Nice to see that you are building again, also I got bored with all these budget projects .

[sdl2112]

Jon, what are your hopes for the new tweeter and waveguide beyond that of the D2608/H65?

[JonMarsh]

Jon, what are your hopes for the new tweeter and waveguide beyond that of the D2608/H65?

Extend the dynamic envelope beyond what's possible with the HDS/H65, as well possibly the crossover flexibility, regarding frequency and slopes.

Whether that's really possible, I'm not sure, but I'm seeing what I can see for potential improvements.

Also, I am considering ideas for a more compact two way system that I would want to have a little more cojones that what we can usually do, but it's also something that may be a showcase for something we're bringing out at work, which I am not normally connected with on a daily basis, by my dept., but have been because of relationships with various guys back in Munich.

For that reason I'm kicking around ideas for an active two way, using our new Class D monolithic amplifier.







It's kind of an unusual piece of gear; though it's aimed at mass market, the development team has worked pretty hard to produce the best sound possible. It's been AB'd against some fairly high end stuff. In that case, getting fairly close is considered a success...

• 2x25WRMS @ RL4 Ohm @24V in Heatsinkless PCB cooled VQFN68 Pin 10x10mm low cost Package
• SPDIF and I2S full 24bit up to 96kHz digital Input with Power Stage
• High resolution 512TAP FIR Filters for Slim Form factor Speaker optimization
• Analog Line Input for Audio-Jacks
• Programmable PWM frequency for interference less integration
• Easy to Control via I2C Commands accessing extensive set of Application Programming commands of device
• USB to SPDIF via SAB9805
• SRC at input for jitter filter and sample rate conversion to native clock
• 512 Tap FIR Filter in chip, for implementing crossover filters and driver EQ

What I should PROBABLY do is build anther set of Modula MT XE, but I figure expanding the envelope a little more would be fun.... just might not have the loot until around December. Of course, probably won't have the time, either.

So I'm leaning either to a 7" two way with PR, or a TMM 2.5 way, either one with waveguides, of course.

It's just idea generation time at this point, and data sheet collecting.

BTW, don't let the appearance of that PCB fool you- that power package is just 1 cm on a side- 10 mm, less than 1/2".

What I plan is reviewing the eval board design (I'm getting one the end of the month) and seeing what and where things may be spec'd up a bit, such as power supply filtering, and I'm working on some projects at work right now that are translatable into a power supply for this soon. SMPS done right with massive filtering and low noise, like Linn, not like the crap in PC's.

[Saurav]

I would love to see you go bigger, along the lines of Geddes' work or the Econo-Wave projects or Brandon's No Quarter. 12/15" pro woofer, large waveguide, low XO, something like that would sing quite nicely with 25W on the woofers.

[Jonasz]

So Jon, when are you going back to real... I mean dipole speakers again? :B

Would be nice to see an active/passive Orion competitor similar to what JohnK makes. Let's say TMWW with one of your WG-tweeters, SS Aluminum midbass and maybe the Seas L26ROY for bass duties.

I do own a SL design (heavily modded) and an all active design is probably very good but it takes away the fun of it. Tons of cables all over and play around with different amps is a hassle when you need eight channels of them.

Well, I hope you plan something dipole in the future anyway! :T

[JonMarsh]

So Jon, when are you going back to real... I mean dipole speakers again? :B

Would be nice to see an active/passive Orion competitor similar to what JohnK makes. Let's say TMWW with one of your WG-tweeters, SS Aluminum midbass and maybe the Seas L26ROY for bass duties.

I do own a SL design (heavily modded) and an all active design is probably very good but it takes away the fun of it. Tons of cables all over and play around with different amps is a hassle when you need eight channels of them.

Well, I hope you plan something dipole in the future anyway! :T

Been thinking about that on and off the last year and a half, but figuring I would get back to it when these more conventional designs are done.

I'm not keen in principle on a multi-way active design with a bazillion cables and channels of amplification- only thought about it a bit since getting the LIO-8. I'd still in principle rather do something that is mostly passive, but with an active low end.

The little digital amp bridges to 50W at 8 ohm; with higher sensitivity drivers, that will produce a fair amount of SPL with more sensitive drivers- stuff like these newer Accutons, some of the PHL's, much of the AE stuff, some of the higher sensitivity tweeters. 50W into a 90 dB net sensitivity speaker is pretty fair in most cases- like 200W/ch into an 84 dB/watt system, which is far too commonplace.

[Hdale85]

You've always got some very interesting stuff on the back burner it seems.

[JonMarsh]

They guys were in last Saturday, we spent a long time in the lab, getting out about 8 in the evening.

Net result, we measured the little Denon speakers they are carrying around, created data files they could use with their compiled MatLAB program, and generated FIR coefficients and downloaded them into the Class D amplifier chips, doing a before and after measurement- no hand tweaking was involved, other than basic limits of EQ parameters and range. Worked pretty well.

Keep in mind, this isn't a DCX2496 or DEQX, but a 512 tap FIR filter built into the digital amplifier chip, which can implement crossovers and driver EQ.




You can probably figure out which is before, which is after.

They'd found an outside company that could/would do the same thing, and had a pretty sophisticated, read expensive, process. It did not beat out what we did in a couple of hours included averaged off axis measurements (easy to do with Fuzzmeaure).

[JonMarsh]

More "virtual" remasters...



Not an easy Steeleye Span album to source, the only "readily" available version of this master is the 2002 import remaster, or if you wish, Amazon's MP3 2009 "remaster". Yeah, they actually call it that.

Little Sir Hugh, Long Lankin, and Demon Lover are some of the notable cuts, but it's all in all a very solid album.

Looking forward to this, releasing on August 17, 2010.



It will reportedly include fighting for strangers, my favorite cut from the nearly impossible to find "Rocket Cottage", one of my all time favorites, but not favorite enough to pop $90 for.

[---k---]

Man Jon,
Those measurements of the Denon look so good that we might as well all quit DIYing.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, well that little guy doesn't have a whole heck of a lot of dynamic range... something of an irony posting about it in this thread, about a speaker capable of umm, maybe 20 dB more output?

But within their dynamic envelope, playing Jennifer Warnes "Somewhere, Somebody", they sounded pretty good. There was a lot of pretty special work that went into those digital amp modules, including line feedforward error correction for power supply rejection, and a power stage digital correction loop without any overall loop feedback.

I've got a development board kit, with the programming hardware, will be getting the new software fairly soon, I do plan to play with these a bit. Might try putting together a two way around the concept. (biamp and EQ)

[dwk]

I've got a development board kit, with the programming hardware, will be getting the new software fairly soon, I do plan to play with these a bit. Might try putting together a two way around the concept. (biamp and EQ)

Pretty slick little board. FIR filters may lack a degree of elegance, but they sure are effective. My guess is that this board is targeted at OEM markets and that DIY access will be unlikely, but maybe I'll be surprised.

[JonMarsh]

Pretty slick little board. FIR filters may lack a degree of elegance, but they sure are effective. My guess is that this board is targeted at OEM markets and that DIY access will be unlikely, but maybe I'll be surprised.

You're most likely correct, at least for a while- I'd like to see that change, if possible, of course. The current software programming tools are functional for a knowledgeable/experience person, but we're talking about an engineer to use, not a hobbyist, unfortunately. As I learn more about the system, I'll be exploring how difficult it would be to implement something user friendly, and what a bare minimum hardware configuration would look like to achieve programming- right now it's controlled by a TI micro DSP. I'm expecting to get all the system schematics sometime soon.

They do have some design wins, and these are the first parts in production in a new BCD mixed signal process, ahead of any of the automotive parts usually done with this technology. We're looking at the idea of implementing the monolithic part as a discrete controller with drivers and FETs for higher output power, but in this monolithic form, we get much better control of driver behavior and linearity and deadtime than we've been able to find in any existing multi-chip solution.

This is the first time I've had a chance to be involved with an audio product at work- got pulled into it by some people I know in HQ in Munich.

[Brian Kingsbury]

This thread seems to be the closest thing I've seen on here to a "What are you listening to right now" thread so I'm posting this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj1rUJ8rIiE&feature=related

Rodrigo and Gabriela: Live in France

This has to be one of the most amazing guitar playing duo's ever. I heard a recording of theirs while at the California Audio Show and thought it was very nice but I was blown away when I SAW them playing on YouTube. I watched one video and went straight to Amazon to buy 3 of their CDs and DVDs.

Gabriela has a truely unique and fascinating playing style and the two of them just seem to feed off each others energy. It's really amazing music. They're playing here in San Diego tomorrow night and I'd love to go but the show is sold out I think I'm falling in love with Gabriela...

[Johnloudb]

This thread seems to be the closest thing I've seen on here to a "What are you listening to right now" thread

I'm sure Jon doesn't mind you posting that (probably welcomes it), but for future reference, this is actually the closest thread to what you're looking for:

What CD are you listening to right now?

Enjoy!

John

[chrismercurio]

This thread seems to be the closest thing I've seen on here to a "What are you listening to right now" thread so I'm posting this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj1rUJ8rIiE&feature=related

Rodrigo and Gabriela: Live in France

This has to be one of the most amazing guitar playing duo's ever. I heard a recording of theirs while at the California Audio Show and thought it was very nice but I was blown away when I SAW them playing on YouTube. I watched one video and went straight to Amazon to buy 3 of their CDs and DVDs.

Gabriela has a truely unique and fascinating playing style and the two of them just seem to feed off each others energy. It's really amazing music. They're playing here in San Diego tomorrow night and I'd love to go but the show is sold out I think I'm falling in love with Gabriela...

Guitar Duos, Trios, and Quartets of note: (not meant to be exhaustive, just suggestions and in no particular order though the top listing is difficult to ignore)

McLaughlin, DiMeola, De Lucia
Fred Benedetti and George Svoboda
Sergio and Odair Assad
LAGQ
John McLaughlin, Larry Coryell and Paco De Lucia
Larry Coryell and Paco De Lucia
California Guitar Trio

[JonP]

Well, as long as we're throwing in guitar folks... a couple more who should be on the list:

Strunz and Farah (have the Americas album, Mid East/Flamenco fusion, jaw dropping good stuff!)
Incendio (local neo Flamenco/world/etc, two guitars and bass player)

Both are high energy, incredible playing, usually well recorded... For the small world factor, Liza the bass player of Incendio used to study with Paco, and the band are friends of the CGT.

[sdl2112]

Hello Jon,

I saw your post in the Modula MT-XE thread so I see you have some MT320 tweeters on hand. I was wondering how well the Janten waveguide and Ciare MT320 tweeters mate (mechanically) together? Pics would be great, also where did you order the MT320's...www.lautsprechershop.de?

The reason I ask is I am planning (if i don't change my mind again) to build a system using 2x SS 22W + Accuton C173-6-090 and thus far the SS HDS tweeter/MCM H-65 WG.

Thanks,

Scott

[JonMarsh]

Hey Scott,

They seem to mate together VERY well (at least physically), but things have been so crazy busy at work through the end of September that I'm just getting back to having weekends off this month. I've got a test baffle and box ready to evaluate, but this weekend I'm out in Denver for RMAF at ThomasW's, and doing strange things with modified SACD players, RME Fireface, and Wave Editor, and showing Tom and Chas98 how to extract SACDs to LPCM 24/176 using this hardware and software rig.

So, measuring that combo as well as some Illuminator driver measurements for another version of the Modula MT XE are high on my to-do list. Shooting for next weekend, certainly getting it out of the way before I have to leave for business in Europe the beginning of November. A lot going on...

I welcome the postings on favorite or recommended recordings- will note and investigate the ones above- keep it up.

The Modula Xtreme's have some planned updates only awaiting time to implement them; some slight crossover tweaks, plus a complete new cabinet build in piano black with a three high fixed stack, and crossovers moved to the bottom box, and some modifications to front panel configuration to eliminate a diffraction issue in the 2 kHz area. They should look better and hopefully be even more pleasing to listen to. Probably a Christmas break projector... maybe start on them at Thanksgiving.

All of this is complicated by having met a very interesting lady a few weeks ago, after having a many year hiatus on that aspect of a personal life.

[JonMarsh]

BTW, I'm basically quite happy with the D2608 and waveguide, but I have the feeling/intuition, that if the MT320/Jantzen waveguide combo works out, it may take things to the next level of effortlessness in that frequency band, and in the transition to the midrange. And yes, I did get the Ciare's from lautsprechershop.de- not cheap, but they had them in stock, shipped right away, just popped for one pair, though I've got three sets of the Jantzen waveguides, as well as a pair of the Audax 034 tweeter that would work with them, too.

[sdl2112]

Wonderful....I posted my response to the wrong thread, to the MT-XE thread, if it could be moved that would be very much appreciated.

[numberoneoppa]

All of this is complicated by having met a very interesting lady a few weeks ago, after having a many year hiatus on that aspect of a personal life.

Oh no! Err... I mean good for you. =D

[sdl2112]

Listening to

I'll be interested in who has heard of Magenta...If you like Genesis and Yes you will probably like...here is Seven's cover, and link to info.

more info

[JonMarsh]

Oh no! Err... I mean good for you. =D

Yeah, i' going to have to learn how to modify space/time through folding n-dimensional space continua in order to keep up with everything on the current event horizon.

[ThomasW]

Wonderful....I posted my response to the wrong thread, to the MT-XE thread, if it could be moved that would be very much appreciated.

There's no such thing as 'moving' a single post in a 9 page thread. Just put your post in the XE thread and I'll delete the one in this thread

[JonMarsh]

Status update will be coming soon... sorry for the hiatus. Life has been complicated.

Greetings from Vienna,

Jon

[claudius]

Isn't it interesting that the older we get the harder we seem to be working Jon, So much for taking it easy after fifty.
I don't know how you manage to have so many things going at the same time, Could it be that you have finally discovered that elusive worm hole in time/space..err..or is it space/time continuum that allowes you to quickly jump from one project to another and back again?....
Seriously though, Thank you for restoring this thread.
Entirely agree with you're conclusion regarding woofers elevation form ground level.
In the process of building the M Xtreme I tried the Accuton C30-6-24 tweeters with mixed results, A gain in clarity and to some extend, detail retrieval at the expense of dispersion and uniformity.
The Ciare MT320 with wave guide looks interesting, Look forward to you're findings.

[JonMarsh]

Isn't it interesting that the older we get the harder we seem to be working Jon, So much for taking it easy after fifty.
I don't know how you manage to have so many things going at the same time, Could it be that you have finally discovered that elusive worm hole in time/space..err..or is it space/time continuum that allowes you to quickly jump from one project to another and back again?....
Seriously though, Thank you for restoring this thread.
Entirely agree with you're conclusion regarding woofers elevation form ground level.
In the process of building the M Xtreme I tried the Accuton C30-6-24 tweeters with mixed results, A gain in clarity and to some extend, detail retrieval at the expense of dispersion and uniformity.
The Ciare MT320 with wave guide looks interesting, Look forward to you're findings.

That is VERY true- my thought recently last year was that I've been working rather hard and not having nearly enough fun the last five years or so. Time to try to turn that around...

[AdelaaR]

Great thread here jon ... I picked up some interesting idea's and albums here.
However ... on the day of my 30th birthday last year you called a $400 DAC a "budget DAC" ... when somebody calls a $400 DAC to be "budget" that signals to me that this person has lost touch with reality.
Have you double-blind tested your ability to hear the difference between a $400 dac and anything priced even ridiculously higher?
99.9% of the people in this world do not even know what a DAC is and even less understand what it does exactly and so they would certainly not pay $400 for one

[Bear]

Great thread here jon ... I picked up some interesting idea's and albums here.
However ... on the day of my 30th birthday last year you called a $400 DAC a "budget DAC" ... when somebody calls a $400 DAC to be "budget" that signals to me that this person has lost touch with reality.
Have you double-blind tested your ability to hear the difference between a $400 dac and anything priced even ridiculously higher?
99.9% of the people in this world do not even know what a DAC is and even less understand what it does exactly and so they would certainly not pay $400 for one

For a standalone DAC, $400 is actually fairly "budget". Like most standalone components, once you go for true separates, the $$$ add up quickly (engineers have to eat, distributors take a big profit margin to cary inventory, etc.).

[JonMarsh]

You bet I have. And more importantly, I finally have digital at home that rivals the vinyl setup I had in the late 70's. Took a long time to get there.

For reference, the DAC in the system with the Modula Xtreme's is a Metric Halo LIO-8. The one for my secondary system where the Ardents are still being worked on is a Berkely Audio Alpha DAC. My non-Audiophile 26 year old daughter finds the difference between these, and say a PS Audio DL-III substantial. Mind you, these aren't being run through HT receivers with Cirrus logic volume controls, either. IMO, the MH products do represent a very high value proposition, as that LIO-8 has 8 channels of A/D as well as 8 of D/A, with a very powerful DSP that can implement crossovers and driver EQ, along with a high quality FireWire interface as well as AES/EBU, and at a price lower than the BADA. It also includes complete analog gain control at the output, and can be run without a preamp without using digital attenuation.

[JonMarsh]

I have a few more thoughts to share on that topic- particularly some things that evolved in my secondary system over a few years- and overall system configuration topics. was thinking about this while waiting in a nine hour layover in the Vienna airport, but couldn't get on line. Now I'm too brain dead at home and thinking more about sleep!

[BretH]

...IMO, the MH products do represent a very high value proposition, as that LIO-8 has 8 channels of A/D as well as 8 of D/A, with a very powerful DSP that can implement crossovers and driver EQ, along with a high quality FireWire interface as well as AES/EBU, and at a price lower than the BADA. It also includes complete analog gain control at the output, and can be run without a preamp without using digital attenuation.

Now all I need is a Google Translation page that handles this

[BobEllis]

http://www.mhsecure.com/v5mm/LIO-8.html

http://www.berkeleyaudiodesign.com/products.html

[Cort]

Have you seen these? http://www.minidsp.com/
looks like its still in the $400 price range but quite versatile