NC500 dual mono's in 1 case

[JonMarsh]

She probably would... it's partly that I realize to get all the essential stuff done this year, I'm going to have to limit getting side tracked by interesting diversions... like, say, a gantry jig? Never been heard of one of those... be curious to see what the setup you put together for that looks like.

Looks like a nice score on the cherry pieces... I've got some big pieces of cocobolo, though not quite that big... but closer than you might expect. Easily big enough to do several amplifier front panels...

The Moon preamp looks like a pretty serious piece- +1 on dual XLR inputs- are you getting either the optional phono or digital inputs? Though I imagine they would push the price up a bit...

[TEK]

Ah, nice bolt and go! Still think you should do a Tenor and I bet the girl friend would like that in the living room with that sub. :W

Finally sourced some 8/4 cherry with a great flat cut grain. They had 2 pieces 8' x 9" wide and a 10' x 8" wide. He said take what you want as long as there is 30" left off either end. I took 30" x 9" right where the grain was the best. $50. bucks! I previously went back to another place that I put a 12/4 piece back on the shelf that was $150. I didn't want to murder it and throw all that cherry out. This felt like Christmas as I was thinking I might have to order in a 8/4 x 8' piece in and couldn't see the grain before it was payed for.

Nice piece darell! Is that 2" thick?

[dar47]

Thanks, well if Ben can get the heat sinks done for a reasonable price this should work out. That jig is just a fixed arc you move with the grain and keep changing your depth till you get your finished curve, concave or convex depending how you place the gantry. I just want to make it with metal on metal for sliding. This guys jig has wood on metal and I think it could get inaccurate. It is just a plowing jig, I have one for flattening or top planing, to cheep for a real top planer. Well if the case is reasonable I'll shape you a piece if your game, that will take the time out of it and you will just have to make it glossy with your spray gear.

No! I'm staying away from the add on phono section on the Moon that just invites buying new vinyl and I sold my tricked out Regga RP6 to get out. I don't think I would add the add-on DAC as after I get the amp up I can compare any stand alone Dac to the NAD M51 before any notion of upgrade and I should have enough digital inputs. They do have the the 280D and 380D DAC's in the NEO line I'm planning on borrowing from my local BM to listen to when the amp is done. This amp along with the pre should give me a good platform now to compare any future purchases though.

[dar47]

Thanks, TEK

Yes, 8/4 rough but it was planed so 1 7/8" and should be more then enough. We modeled starting at 1 1/2" and 1 3/8" thick so it should work. Where is that order did they ship, haha. Have to get the jig designed and drawn up. That go for you too I can rough out a walnut for you and ship if you like. Of course you make yourself if you like.

[TEK]

I sent a update request earlier this morning - will keep you posted.
(It's about 07 in the morning here, I'm on my way to get the children fed and off to school).

I can fix the wood front here - guess that will save quite some weight on the shipment. I will also do mine in Walnut you know. I think it will be a nice and peaful wood working project. Might do it all the old-school way with only hand tools. Will be interesting to work and shape a big part of walnut wood...

Tomorrow morning me and my wife will be off to Rome for the weekend. Looking forward to that :-)

[benthe8track]

Sooo got the first quote in @ $750 US to machine those heat sinks. Which is stupid. I'll send out more RFQs.

[JonMarsh]

I sent a update request earlier this morning - will keep you posted.
(It's about 07 in the morning here, I'm on my way to get the children fed and off to school).

I can fix the wood front here - guess that will save quite some weight on the shipment. I will also do mine in Walnut you know. I think it will be a nice and peaful wood working project. Might do it all the old-school way with only hand tools. Will be interesting to work and shape a big part of walnut wood...

Tomorrow morning me and my wife will be off to Rome for the weekend. Looking forward to that :-)

Should be getting nice and warm in Rome by now... :W

[dar47]

Ah, Rome just for the weekend something we can never say, Have Fun!

[JonMarsh]

The headquarters group I work with in Villach Austria can drive to Italy for a pizza in less than half an hour- it's right near the border to Italy and Slovenia, and there's a village in Italy about 22 km away that has pretty good pizza- I know this for a fact, not by reputation... :W

We've done it quite a few times when I've been visiting. Alas, we're in another travel and expense lockdown, so I probably won't' be going to Villach this year...

[dar47]

Okay Jon I'll follow your lead, I ordered one of those 3U cases for messing around with (no heat sinks) and I can get one up and running then make the Tenor pretty.

[JonMarsh]

Cool.... I'm definitely going with these guys for some other DIY I have in mind; a possible investigatory preamp project being kind of high on that list. Test, they're a bit "utilitarian", but the options and build quality are hard to argue with, especially after seeing the first one in person; gives me even more confidence.

And so practical for something from Italy... Who'd have thought? :W

[TEK]

Came back from Rome yesterday. Doable for a weekend - but still quite a long journey. Approx 10hours travel time (from home to hotel) each way.
But I have to say - I have been in quite a number of european cities (Berlin, Stockholm, Tallin, Copenhagen, Milano, Praha, Reikavik++) - Rome is hands down the most increadable city I have ever been in.
Impressive buildings everywhere.

I think we tracked around 6-10 hours walking time each day.

I'm pritty sure I will go back there again!

[Evil Twin]

Unquestionably it is a locale filled with history as well as buildings...

[dar47]

So now I go to order wire for hooking things up!

What kind of quality hook up wire should I buy, for balanced Canare L-4E6S Quad star (got some left) is this good enough inside the case or what's best for shielding as quantity is not much?
Power wire what gauge and kind for this?
hook up wire 14 gauge or 12?

[JonMarsh]

The Canare should be fine- that's the sort of stuff I usually use. For the speaker wiring, nominally twisted pair, preferably something in the 14WG range, Cardas if you can go with that. Another option is Canare; around the house my "cheap" speaker cables are all Canare 4s11, but the lighter weight 4s8 might be more appropriate in a chassis; it's 4 AWG16 conductors (equivalent to AWG14 net) and you have better field cancellation than for twisted pair. Your call; I wouldn't want to claim I could hear the difference depending on what you chose; this is something where I figured I want to layout the system interface board for connectors that could actually support the 4S11; there are PCB mount banana jacks that I use in power conversion stuff, that would allow directly plugging in locking banana plugs (the kind with the rotating outer barrel that splay out the tips). Just one over the top idea... I'll find and post some pics of what these connectors look like.

Of course, for builds where you go with the OEM adapter, you need to use what fits there.

All of this should be discussed amongst us before the first PCB's are ordered. I'm still favoring a modular approach, which would also allow upgrades to an extent.

[dar47]

Thanks Jon, I think I see where your going. Should have case, Hypex stuff and most everything to do the temporary build and a lot towards the Tenor build not including your mods. Got the little things from Parts Connection including 5' of the Cardas 64331 speaker wire 4 conductors in a cable like your 4S11 cable. Hopefully I can get a 2 channel up and running in the temp case and then see where the muti-channel and bumped up versions go. Are you going to build your ultimate idea first or work your way up the latter and test as you go? Maybe you like to to go back and forth but it should be fun following you, Haha. So funny I actually quoted your Herding Cats today as I handed some data to a manager to go explain it to the VP's. He asked if this could show efficiency and I said this is why you avoid these simple questions when they come to you. I told him that's a whole data mining exercise that should have a raise attached, haha.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks Jon, I think I see where your going. Should have case, Hypex stuff and most everything to do the temporary build and a lot towards the Tenor build not including your mods. Got the little things from Parts Connection including 5' of the Cardas 64331 speaker wire 4 conductors in a cable like your 4S11 cable. Hopefully I can get a 2 channel up and running in the temp case and then see where the muti-channel and bumped up versions go. Are you going to build your ultimate idea first or work your way up the latter and test as you go? Maybe you like to to go back and forth but it should be fun following you, Haha. So funny I actually quoted your Herding Cats today as I handed some data to a manager to go explain it to the VP's. He asked if this could show efficiency and I said this is why you avoid these simple questions when they come to you. I told him that's a whole data mining exercise that should have a raise attached, haha.

Now that's telling it like it is! :B


Sounds like you've got things under control for your builds.

My direction is to work up the system board and three plug in buffer designs, maybe more- to evaluate on the bench and to listen to. I've also got a pair of silver Ghent Audio cases for NCORE builds, which are laid out to be able to handle the SMPS1200, which I may do the first build in, at least, I'll need to put one together for testing the system interface board and buffers and regulators. Note, the standard working mode for the OEM adapter board is to use the symmetric rail (+/-) outputs of the SMPS1200A700, which are nominally 20-21V, but can vary from 16V to 24VDC depending on the line voltage (there is no line voltage regulation in this SMPS). So, if one wants a regulated supply supply for the OpAmps that has to be added (there are PCB holes for adding the HrX 12V regulators on the OEM adapter boards, and as long as 12V is good given the supply voltage and clipping state, that may be OK. I haven't verified that yet, it also depends on the voltage swing to the rail of the specific low level amplifier (op amp or whatever)

So my goal is to finish the schematics and PCB layouts for that, and measure the OEM adapter board as well as my own; I also have some of the HrX pos and neg regulators, so I'll check that out, too; only if I need a voltage different from 12V will I bother to spin my own; the Hypex ones are intelligently designed using LED's biased forward as the regulator reference (much, much quieter this way than zener diodes), so as long as things look good on the scope, we'll just stay that way. (there are many reasons I have 12 bit scopes instead of the usual 8 bit stuff Tektronix makes, for example). We should be able to get the HrX stuff through TEK at a good price, too.

I realize this may be slogging along a bit slower than you guys expect, for that I apologize; things didn't go the way I expected on my trip to Munich last month, and there have been a lot of things going on, but I'm making an extra effort to devote my spare time focus on this now.

More parts came in today, a batch of the OPA1611 (which is a part I'm pretty enthusiastic about, due to it's similarity to the OPA1622, but being much easier to mount and solder; I have the power pad SOIC8 package version), and the Hypex compatible six pin power connectors. Let's hear it for Digikey...

[dar47]

Well Jon, you tell if we have the room for mods, haha. My case bottom size is the same as yours! Not much different if I turn the SMPS 90 degrees. I think I build mine like this? I can always move things around but maybe just go to the Tenor case. Tek if your checking in thanks all 5 channels showed today and look good. I don't no why Hypex wouldn't just add a heat sink or riser to the converter board though as I have to find the perfect M3 stand offs so those pins line up. Just waiting on Parts Connection for binding post and what not for the back panel. Let me know if this arrangement looks dumb? SMPS and soft start at the front face plate.

[TEK]

Very happy to hear that you finally got your stuff!
The handing of this order was not a "Hypex finest moment" - that's for sure. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I also had to find some spacers for the converter board - quite standard stuff so it went OK. But I have to say, the number of different small parts you have to get hold on and figure out the correct parts for - that was a bit of surprise for me. And especially to figure out exactly how stuff actually are shaped, the correct plug types and so on was some work for a newbe like myself.

[JonMarsh]

Very happy to hear that you finally got your stuff!
The handing of this order was not a "Hypex finest moment" - that's for sure. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I also had to find some spacers for the converter board - quite standard stuff so it went OK. But I have to say, the number of different small parts you have to get hold on and figure out the correct parts for - that was a bit of surprise for me. And especially to figure out exactly how stuff actually are shaped, the correct plug types and so on was some work for a newbe like myself.

That's why we say the Devil is in the details... engineering is all about details- even just assembling things is like that.

[dar47]

Well finally got all the parts in and ready to wire. Have no idea how to wire the soft start, relay and power trigger to work but I will start with the basics. Here is my layout which I think leaves the most room in the case for upgrades?



Back panel was not bad with the Dremmel for square holes and a step drill for round. I think my final case will have an unassuming power switch not this big one.



Ben just hot melted his relay for the power trigger so I made a little standoff for the relay. We should include a power trigger relay in the final design and maybe an easy 12volt supply for an led display?



I'l start with the easy stuff for you guys and check as I go along.

[dar47]

Ya the devil is in the details, no mater how I try I can't seem to get the tin for these connectors right and I am not going to say how many times I have ordered, haha. Anyone nail this down,

1. The 6 position male end I got VLP-60V but what tin to fit that Female on the board as the cable looks to have 20 up to 16 AWG?

2. The balanced 4 position 43025-0400 connectors but again what tin for 16AWG?

3. Need a 2 position VHR-2N for 115v, (there is 1 connector included with the cable package) but only 2 tin and I should get some if the crimp isn't great but again what tin for 16 AWG?

Okay AMP building is way way more frustrating for me then building speakers.

[TEK]

Sorry, but English is not my first language, that's probably why I do not understand.
What do you mean when you write "what tin"?

[dar47]

Sorry the crimping tin pin connectors inside the plastic housing. I think I may have found the pin numbers, for the VLP-06V pins 20 to 14 awg is SVF-61T-P2.0. As I am 115volts not 240volts I have to use a VHR-2N connector and I think the pin for 20 to 16 awg is SVH-41-P1.1. Can you check what you bought for the VLP-06V connector?

For the Balanced 43025-0400 I think I did order the right pins, 20 to 24 awg number 0430300007. Other question is does the ground sheathing or the wire mesh you gather on the balanced cable get connect to somewhere at the board or just at the back plate ground close to the balance inlet XLR socket?

[TEK]

We should include a power trigger relay in the final design and maybe an easy 12volt supply for an led display?

I agree about that.
Hope you figured out the pin types (you got a PM regarding that).

If I recall correctly about the xlr I connected the socket casing to the chassie by the xlr plug. I also passed on the ground cable to the earth on the balanced input on the oem converter card. The converter card is also grounded to the chassie (via one of the snap-on pins.

When you start connecting stuff remember that J12 pin 9 on the adaptor board should be disconnected.
(I removed the pin from the socket - it was easier than changing the wire)

From my hypex dialog:

This is normal. J12 pin 9 on the adaptor board is permanently connected to ground on the SMPS, thus pulling the pin low. If you disconnect this pin from the ribbon cable the indicator should function normally.

Kind regards / Met vriendelijke groet,
Jos Wolthuis
Support

Op 6-1-2016 om 1:21 schreef Trond-Eirik Kolloen:
Hi

I’m doing a prototype assembly of a NC500OEM, NC500 adapter board and a SMPS1200A700.
I have mounted the adapter board to the NCore500.
I have connected the adapted boards J12 to the SMPS1200A700 according to the instructions (SMPS J1 to adapter board J17 and SMPS J4 to adapter board J4, all with the SMPS1200 cable pack).
I’m running on 230V power (Norway).
Ground is not connected.
Speaker is not connected.
Audio input is not connected.
J6 and J7 on the SMPS is set to unregulated.

When I power up the amp I get two led lights on the adapter board. “Amp ready” and “Overcurrent indicator”.
I have seen others having the same problem (on forums). Do you know the reason why the “Overcurrent indicator” light is lit, and what I can do to fix the situation?

[dar47]

TEK, thanks for the J12 pin9 reminder I'm sure I would have forgot and pondered that a long while, haha!

Finally got all the correct pins for connectors now and ready to step towards this full prototype. I'm going to just do back switch and fuse and get it going then use the soft start and relay and front light push button with a power trigger on the back. Should have time this weekend to at least hear these. This what I sorted for the relay and trigger.

[JonMarsh]

Diagrams- I love diagrams. I've been meaning to get back to this thread, still kind of swamped, and have a couple of honey-do's now this evening- just saying this is on my list!

[TEK]

Dar, could you explain how the trigger is supposed to work?
I would expext that the trigger caused the relay to connect or disconnect a connection, like your power switch does?
How will the trigger work regarding on/off operation? What signal will it send?

Also, is there a reason you have selected to have asymetrical placement for the smps1 vs smps2?

[dar47]

I will try but remember this is not my forte, haha.

The amp when powered up from the back switch is in a state of either standby or on and if you power trigger the relay with a universal remote from one of your other pieces of gear that has a trigger out connection to this amp's trigger in, it will change the state by powering the soft start mod up or put it in standby. So the relay just changes the state from it's current condition. Only 1 issue here is how do you visually know what state the amp is in? For this prototype amp I will include a led push button on the front that will indicate the state the amp is in, (yellow lite led on the button is standby and blue is on). This front push button is wired parallel with the relay to the soft start so pushing it will also changes the state from on to standby or on. So basically you have remote control and push button to change the state of the amp through Hypex's soft start mod. Ben has the push button in Calgary so to start I will wire the soft start with just the power trigger's relay in parallel to a small switch inside the case with 2 leds mounted in the soft start to indicate the state. Note the switch on the back of the amp is not in this circuit and just powers the soft start that powers the SMPS's.

The final Tenner version will have the power trigger function but no front push button. The led edge lite glass display will change colors to indicate the state the amp is in. Now we just have to have our resident guru give us a power trigger function with a (easy button so to speak) 12v out for the led display so we know the state the amp is in. Jon is probably much more efficient and elegant then all my bashing around! Note Jon, I have no idea if you need to use Hypex's soft start mod to accomplish this. The soft start manual does not indicate the voltage out for the led's either but it is enough for 2 single led's.

I did find this nice little solderless socket for the relay to mount some pin connectors on and it has 2 sided tape to stick to the little bridge I built though. Slightly more elegant then Ben's upside down hot glue. I should say he did great job though cause he still has to tell me how to connect the right pins to this relay, haha.

[dar47]

Well no such luck for me, both amps power up from the soft start but amps indicate CLIP on the amp led's. Not sure what to check.

[dar47]

clipping detected, could this be the balanced pin connector on the input board?

[TEK]

clipping detected, could this be the balanced pin connector on the input board?

Have you disconnected the J12 pin 9 on the adaptor board from the ribbon cable?

I also note that you have your amp seems to be connected to safty ground. That is not recommended as it is very likely to cause ground loops, hum and noice into your system. Been there done that...
You should go with doble safty standard instead of safty ground. From your wiring it seems like you have done that anyway.
Probably not the cause for the clipping detected issue thu...

Another thing Dar. I see that you seems (from what I can observe) to have your speaker cables layout out in paralell from the adaptor board and to the speaker output terminals. According to Bruno these are likely to pick up disturbtion and should be twisted tight together to avoid this.

This is how I did it:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25041&d=1453059422

Give me a feedbak about what you find out. If you still have problems I can open up mine to verify how the balanced connection is done.

-TEK

[dar47]

Hi, Trond

Yes thanks for the tip on J12 pin 9, I removed the pin from the connector on the adapter board. Ground I think is the same as yours, ground pin on the XLR is just connected to the bottom near the front of the case. Sheathing on xlr to pin 4 on adapter board. I disconnected the XLR cables from their sockets and fired it up but no go. Shouldn't be any issue with power as soft start powers correctly and led installed on the soft start shows when on and in standby. Main 6 socket connector is twisted and rapped with Teflon tape (a good dielectric and holds a nice twist). Speaker wire is Cardas heavy outer jacket with a Teflon coat and 2 sets of twisted 14 awg wires, also has 4 rope to maintain equal distance on the twist.

Checked all power connections to make sure they were correct and changed 1 channels adapter board with a new one and disconnected other channel, I get "ready" and "clip"? I didn't pull the J12 pin9 on the new board though. Not sure why Hypex is making pin connectors that have to be cut up though. When I get a chance I will do the other side to see if it does the same.

Swapped out the other channel and i get the same "ready and clip", so some consistency. Problem who know maybe I should have to remove J12 pin5 the clipping one, haha.

[TEK]

Hi Dar
It's morning here now, so I'm on my way to work.
I'll see if I can check my amp and get back to you with some info tonight.

I noticed that you wrote "cut up". I guess you are sure that the pin is really disconnected (for example by measuring). I desoldered the whole pin.
Anyway - I'll try to get back to you tonight.

[dar47]

Well got sound for a second and them clips and then kind of spits sound on and off every second or 2. Only thing I question is as follows,

Power supply for harness JI lists pins as 1=VDR+, 2=HV+, 3= GND, 4=VDR-, 5=HV-, 6=GND. But the adapter board shows as the following,

1=VDR, 2=HV+, 3&6=GDN, 5&4=HV-,

So the 5 and 4 on the adaptor board are not 4=VDR- and 5=HV- same as SMPS ? Or is 5= HV- off the SMPS spliced to send only 5=HV- from the SMPS to the adapter board going to both pin 4 and 5?

Other then this question I am stumped as power side works even with soft start in and I check XLR pins off my pre-amp and they match to the adapter board as well as desolder the pin to be removed like you did Tek. What is causing this thing to spit at me, haha.

[TEK]

Hi
You are wondering about your smps to adapter connections?
The best description I have found is in this document:

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=DB1E11B2CF05FB28!25893&authkey=!ABBnAXtU6JyfsGo&ithint=file%2cpdf

Especially this drawing:


If you follow the wiring as on the picture you can't go wrong. Also, as shown there there are two switched to set/verify - also noted in the drawing, ser the "note:"


In earlier pice it did seem like there was a connection between the amps power socket, chassie and saftey earth. If that is correct I suggest you disconnect that.

What pre-amp are you using? Might there be a impedance problem (not very likely)?

[dar47]

Tek, Thanks very much for all your tec support where do I send the check!

One of the binding posts was shorting to ground as I just had them through the hole without insulators on. Other problem that gave me fits was the xlr finally traced right from the pre amp and reverse to the board. You were right no hardware problem but when you can't source the issue you start to second guess everything. Is that main harness wired right? haha.

I have the soft start in but no power trigger working, when Ben sends me the led switch I will get that going. Here the as is look for now and all things can be changed when Jon gets is input built to try in this case, then the Tenor build will go. I couldn't fit both power supplies in like yours Tek and get the relay and soft start in so I settled on this orientation.



Oh ya I started with one of my 2way surrounds to test and now they are playing with the new Moon 350P new (it needs some break in time too). I'm not going to judge anything on the NC500's for awhile but they are powerful and dead quite even load with ear next to tweeter. Okay Jon if your checking in we are ready for your gizmo thing and let us know when your input is done, haha.

Image not available

[TEK]

Damn - those speakers are beatiful!

That was a troublesome path to success Dar, but then the victory at the end feels even better!
Very happy that you figured it all out.

It will be interesting to hear what you think about those amp after they have played for some time (a improvement in my ears).
Did you have a nc400 based amp, or was that Ben?
I would think that the sound signature between those two should have a lot if simularities, expect for the nc500 to have a bit more power.

If Jon comes back to us ;-) it will be very exiting to see what a new system board in place of the oem-adaptor board will to!

My experience is that the Ardens have became "softer" after beeing played for quite some time.
If it's myself, the ardens or the amp that has changed I'm not sure about ops:

[TEK]

Starting to get sone impression Dar?

[dar47]

Well a bit of an adventure, hooked the NC500 up to the new Moon 350P (brand new) with only 1 hour on it and just left them on and to cycle music through for awhile when I was at home for probably 15 hours. For my first sit I was disappointed mids and highs were thin and it just seamed incoherent not like I remembered the NC400 through the NAD M51, XSP-1 pre and XPA-2 amp. I then ran the M51 straight through the NC500 as Moon says at least 20 hours on the 350P pre to get the best sound. The sound was still incoherent and I started to panic thinking maybe the NC500 is not going to play nice with my system and I'm going to have to say I hate it, haha. Only thing I could think of was it did sound out of phase so I checked and sure enough when I took the single monitor out I was using for testing and re-hooked up the other Ardent I reversed at the binding posts. After fixing that all sounded better with same sound as the NC400 with just the M51 and cleaner and crisper then with the old XPA-2. I noted the M51 volume control sounded nice with 24 bit stuff but not as nice with the 16bit recordings, low mids kind of weak and a bit of edge to the highs on some recordings. (horns, piano, cymbals, acoustical stuff). I remember appreciating the NC400 through the pre-amp the sound was smoothed a bit especially with 16 bit stuff. so I hooked the 350p back in and gave it some more time to get the full 20 hours in.

The 350P analog stage is top notch so I was looking for better sound and on Sunday after a full 20 hours there it was that lush full lower mid range and neutral top mids with beautiful detailed highs. It was all there with all kinds of recordings. Powerful tight base I think better then the NC400 at 80dbs or higher but not sure how close the mids and highs would be through this pre-amp. I'm happy, all is playing nice like I hoped. This is the best sound I have had in my room and I can just kind of play and try any DAC in the future and only buy if it beats the M51 in my setup. This front end is now ready to just tweak for fun but I could just live with just this. I'm wondering what Jon's input stage will do, power response, dynamics? Don't think sound stage would change. I do think different DAC's in this setup would now be easily noticed though.

Anyways happy happy just need my Tenor case and it will be fun to see what Jon does to this.

[TEK]

Seems like we have had simular experienced. I had also a phase where I had them out-of-phase.
Good to here that it worked out in the end.
As you I'm also eger to see what Jon can do with the input stage!