Horio's Wavecor Ardent Build

[Horio]

Great work! Does your crossover include the tilted voicing circuit?

Thanks Dar! I'm not even sure what a tilted voicing circuit is, so I'm gonna say no?

[Horio]

Curious about AMB Beta24 amp. Is it cost effective to build these compared to offerings from Emotiva and Outlaw Audio?

Rick, the Beta24 is pretty complex and is definitely a more expensive DIY amplifier build. Like many of us on this board, I just love to build and tinker with things. I know the designer (AMB) of the amp, I liked the design, and I thought it would be a good match for my Wavecor Ardents.

I would guess if this was a commercially offered amplifier, it would be fairly expensive. I'd say the build all in is running me around $1000 for all of the components and another $500 for the casework. Multiply that by maybe 5 times and that's what it might run you commercially.

[JonMarsh]

As far as I know Horio is building the standard Wavecor Ardent crossover. The tilting voicing circuit is an add on in the preamp path, or a number of modifications to the crossover. Obviously, for most people, if you curious about the voicing adjustment (which is useful for almost all speakers designed to a flat response spec) having that external and easy to swap in and out is probably preferred.

But like Ergo and the owner of my original build of Wavecor Ardent, once you've tried it and compared, you probably won't want to go back.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43337-Report-back-on-stereo-speaker-voicing-investigation

[rick844]

Wow. I take it, it is a 2 channel amp. I think the wiring and soldering skills are well above my ability. I still think it's really cool to see people building their own amps.

[Horio]

Wow. I take it, it is a 2 channel amp. I think the wiring and soldering skills are well above my ability. I still think it's really cool to see people building their own amps.

Yup, its just a good old 2-channel Class AB amplifier.

If the Beta24 feels a bit above your skill level, go check out DIYAudio.com as there are a ton of other great DIY designs which are easier to build and much less expensive. Nelson Pass of Pass Labs (maker of some very high end commercial gear) is a contributor and his designs, like the Pass/Firstwatt F5, are very popular and simple to build. Renron mentioned a few posts up that is running his Wavecor Ardents off a Honey Badger which is another build you can find over at DIYAudio.

Don't get intimidated by DIY. With a little patience and an interest to learn, it's really not that hard as long as you're good at following directions. I started off with a couple of simple headphone amplifiers, and since then I've probably made 10-15 other designs of a wide variety It's a great way to make some great sounding stuff without spending a lot of money. The Wavecor Ardent are a perfect example of this!

[Horio]

As far as I know Horio is building the standard Wavecor Ardent crossover. The tilting voicing circuit is an add on in the preamp path, or a number of modifications to the crossover. Obviously, for most people, if you curious about the voicing adjustment (which is useful for almost all speakers designed to a flat response spec) having that external and easy to swap in and out is probably preferred.

But like Ergo and the owner of my original build of Wavecor Ardent, once you've tried it and compared, you probably won't want to go back.

Well somehow I missed this whole thread a few years back. Looks like I have a little reading to do...

[dar47]

Ya, I am considering a tare down of my Ardents to add more finish to them as I only put a few coats of finish on in a rush to hear them. So this might be an opportunity to add the voicing circuit. Jon did you make up some of these xlr adapters with pre-made circuit boards for version 1 and 2? Other than that is there 2 versions of cross over modifications for both versions. Sorry Horio, I just thought if there was a time both of us should consider it's now.

[Horio]

Well I got my Beta24 up and running tonight. Had a couple hour listening session and I'm quite happy with what I'm hearing. Should pair very nicely with the Wavecor Ardents in the near future (hopefully).

Still need to attach the front panel and finish casing it up, but it looks awfully cool without the front panel on. Like the way the LED's reflect off the shiny Toroidy transformer case. Looks very death star like. ET would be proud!

[ergo]

That is one shiny transformer cover. If you'd put a glass front panel on it it would look like a gaming PC rig
I have looked at AMB-s amp also in past but in end I've only built his mobile headphone amp and have so JISBOS JFET buffer PCB-s and parts still in drawer waiting for a project they would fit in. He does do good engineering and good documentation on projects.

[Bear]

Shiny!

[Horio]

Ya, I am considering a tare down of my Ardents to add more finish to them as I only put a few coats of finish on in a rush to hear them. So this might be an opportunity to add the voicing circuit. Jon did you make up some of these xlr adapters with pre-made circuit boards for version 1 and 2? Other than that is there 2 versions of cross over modifications for both versions. Sorry Horio, I just thought if there was a time both of us should consider it's now.

Dar, thanks for bringing this to my attention. Looks like a simple little filter circuit that is placed between the preamp and amplifier. I'll probably give it a try once I've got the Wavecor Ardents up and running. If you want to go in on ordering a small batch of boards, let me know.

I've also been kicking around the idea of getting a MiniDSP to play around with. Maybe the DDRC-22D or SHD Studio inserted in front of my DAC. I would be curious to see what one of their Dirac Live products would do in my room. I definitely have a mode or two that are boosting some of the bass regions.

If anyone uses a MiniDSP, I'd love to hear your thoughts or recommendations.

[ergo]

I did have the DDRC-22D and do have the miniDSP 2x4

I was running my Modula MT mkII-s with the DDRC-22D and it did improve the sound in an overall net positive way. Added bottom end support and in midrange did some good especially with speech/dialogue from TV (my setup is in family room, so gets plenty of just TV and movie sounds too). When I finished Ardents the benefit sort of vanished and I liked the RAW from speakers even if the response has slight more wiggles in it. So decided to sell it to finance other directions like Purifi amps

The miniDSP 2x4 is a "good toy to have", but the ADC/DAC quality is not up to bar for a system that runs Ardents and AMB amps. It would be a severe bottleneck. I have not heard the newer MiniDSP 2x4 HD or the Dirac based models though. Maybe those are better. The Plugins for those are kind of "leaning toward ease of use". Meaning there is not always as much flexibility as one would want for experiments. So I got myself also a http://www.freedsp.cc - an Analog Devices DSP based one the allows really lot of ad-hoc stuff.

Btw, there in now this interesting more affordable streaming DAC from NAD also that supports Dirac

https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-658-bluos-streaming-dac/

[dar47]

Haha, this is the Ardent worm hole. I used to have a front firing IB sub in the old house with the manifold opening on the front stage in one corner. This gave me only a 1 DB drop from 30 to 35 hrz at my listening position which was easily corrected with the sub amp eq. I had 2 pre-set curves one for movies one for music but mostly just ran the Ardents by them self for music with very little difference on most music. Just me but if the room is good with treatments setting levels manually to your listening position for movies sounds best! My new house the IB is side firing and far from ideal but still just eq from the amp.

If you have some room treatment and a good front end for the Ardents for music, it is very good with just the Ardents. Upgrade-itiss brought me from Emo pre-amp and amp with an NAD M51 which was passed to Ron (Renron), to Ncore amp, Sim Audio Moon 350p and a 380d dac. Yes the more you spend the Better the Ardents sound.

As far as the voicing filter goes I have the first version Wavecor's so not sure if it's the same circuit. Having a try with it outside the crossover first may be the way to go or just add to cross over now while the speaker is open. Jon talked about a switch in the future to turn on and off in the crossover maybe best to wait for that.

[rick844]

Many thanks

[Horio]

I finally got together with my parents over the holiday for the first time since the virus outbreak. While visiting, my dad and I made some progress in the shop working on the wavecor ardents! We got around to leveling out some of the high/low spots, gluing up the hardboard on all six sides, routing the recess for the binding post plate I had made, and started sealing everything with epoxy. Here are some photos of the progress:

Gluing up the 1/8" hardboard on all sides. We used the speakers themselves to help clamp the hardboard where we could.







All of the hardboard panels were oversized for gluing and then trimmed with either a router with a special flush trimming setup, or with a Japanese Royoba pull saw. The pull saw did a great job on the facets and odd angle cuts.







Next up, were the recesses for the custom binding post plate I had made by Front Panel Express. The woodpeckers variable router jig worked perfectly for these recesses. Notice the wide spacing of the binding post mounting holes to get around the internal vertical cross brace member connected to the rear panel:



Here is a photo after all of the 1/8" hardboard panels were installed, flush trimmed and cleaned up. I'm so glad I decided to spend the extra time installing the hardboard as it hid some of my mistakes and small misalignments, and provides a very smooth and much harder surface than the BB plywood. I highly recommend others do the same.

I'm planning to paint the boxes so I used a 1/8" round-over bit to soften all of the edges so there were no sharp and hard corners that could cause issues with the paint chipping.



Finally, here is the first side of the speakers (top) getting 3 coats of epoxy. We only had time to do the tops and faces before I had to take off, but dad is going to finish other the other four faces. With some time sanding, this should be a great smooth hard surface for the primer and paint to be applied to.

[Steve Manning]

Nice to see the great progress Greg.

[Horio]

Thanks Steve. Finally getting very close to getting some paint on these cabinets.

[Horio]

Cabinets are sealed!

And the boxes are sealed! Up next, a bunch of sanding followed by some primer and paint!

[JonMarsh]

Steady progress!

[dar47]

Base prep for your paint is perfect! This should be a joy laying down paint on these.

[Evil Twin]

Indeed, your attention to detail and predatory work should pay substantial dividends as you close in on completion of the cabinets.

[Horio]

Base prep for your paint is perfect! This should be a joy laying down paint on these.

Thanks Dar. I'm so glad I followed your lead and the advice of others to spend the extra time adding the 1/8" hardboard. It was also a great idea to seal the cabinets with epoxy, especially the baffles. It was fun to watch the bamboo soak up most of the epoxy on the first coat.

[Horio]

Paint Recommendations

So it's almost time to put some paint on these speakers. I should finish wrapping the speaker bases in hardboard this week, and will then coat them in epoxy like I did with the main speaker cabinets.

I'll be spraying with a Fuji Q4 4-stage HVLP with their T70 siphon gun. Right now I'm thinking:

1. Sand the epoxy smooth to 320 grit (skip primer since cabinets sealed with epoxy).
2. (2-3) coats of Target Coatings WB EM6500 tinted lacquer (tinted to custom color).
3. (2-3) coats of Target Coatings WB EM9300 Polycarbonate Urethane or EM6000 WB Production Lacquer.
4. Polish top coat using polishing pad and compound.

I'm looking for a fairly glossy surface like you see with Wilson Audio's painted speakers. I'm definitely a novice when it comes to paint and finishes in general, and I'd love to get some input on the process above. If you have any other products that you'd recommend, I'm all ears.

[Steve Manning]

So it's almost time to put some paint on these speakers. I should finish wrapping the speaker bases in hardboard this week, and will then coat them in epoxy like I did with the main speaker cabinets.

I'll be spraying with a Fuji Q4 4-stage HVLP with their T70 siphon gun. Right now I'm thinking:

1. Sand the epoxy smooth to 320 grit (skip primer since cabinets sealed with epoxy).
2. (2-3) coats of Target Coatings WB EM6500 tinted lacquer (tinted to custom color).
3. (2-3) coats of Target Coatings WB EM9300 Polycarbonate Urethane or EM6000 WB Production Lacquer.
4. Polish top coat using polishing pad and compound.

I'm looking for a fairly glossy surface like you see with Wilson Audio's painted speakers. I'm definitely a novice when it comes to paint and finishes in general, and I'd love to get some input on the process above. If you have any other products that you'd recommend, I'm all ears.

Hey Greg,

If you have any technical questions, give Target Coatings a call, they are super helpful. They could tell you if primer is recommended or not, even with the epoxy.

I do know you will need to wait at least two weeks to let the finish cure prior to polishing.

[Renron]

I've sprayed 10s of gallons of EM6000 Used to be called USL (BTW) . I would also call before you recoat with epoxy. Questions are cheap and we all may learn something. Jeff is easy to talk with and can speak non-chemist .
I'm not sure epoxy is needed and primer may be a better option as a base coat. WB top coats are notoriously thin, I would plan on at LEAST 6 finish coats of color. More after you sand smooth. They dry super fast and you can get 4 coats in a day if your careful. It takes a full month for the EM6000 to fully shrink back after it's dried, from personal experience. Plan on runs with a vertical surface wait until their dry then shave with a single edge razor blade. Put two small 1/4" strips of blue tape on the sharp corners of the blade and pull / draw the razor blade to knock off the top of the run, finish off with a sanding block. Don't use water as a lubricant. Do USE (Non waxed based dust cloths (tack rags) . You'll get dust nibs but don't worry, they'll sand out later.
Looks like you have some quality equipment so spraying should be smooth. Watch the reflection / glare as you lay down coats. Cover 1/3 of the previous pass with the next pass, when a complete panel is finished in one direction go back over it at 90* with a complete respray. The two layers will blend and this will help with the flow out. Until you "get the hang of it" the EM6000 will lay down dry spray coats probably the first 3 coats or so. You can't help but get dry spray onto a previously sprayed panel, don't worry it will sand out later. Take your time, try to enjoy this part too.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Listen closely to these words of wisdom... Ron is a true Jedi for these kinds of tasks.

[_luke]

I'm following with interest and would recommend contacting the tech team to validate your approach.

I say this because I'm also building a version of the Wavecor Ardent and I'm having some issues with Morrells WB lacquer (I'm in the UK) spraying through a Fuji 4-stage HVLP. I didn't contact the technical department.....

My cabs and front panels are BB. I didn't epoxy but used the manufacturers WB high build primer. I can get this super smooth but the lacquer on top still shrinks back showing imperfections, ply edges etc. It's getting better and I think I'm on top of it but I can't help but think that a seal coat would have been a good idea. I've used this finish before with MDF and didn't have these issues.

Keep us posted with progress - it looks great so far.

[Horio]

Thanks for the input guys, I greatly appreciate the tips!

I did talk to Jeff at Target Coatings this morning. He felt that a primer wasn't needed since I've sealed the cabinets with epoxy and thus there's no need to fill the grain and seal the wood. He recommended I go with their EM7000HBL High Build WB Spray Lacquer over the color tinted EM6500, as the EM6000 can yellow. He said I can lay down as many coats of the EM7000HBL as I feel is necessary.

I'm not trying to go for a super piano glossy finish, so depending on how the clear coat of EM7000HBL turns out, maybe I won't need to do a bunch of polishing afterward?

Target Coatings is running a 25% off sale right now, so hopefully I can get my wife to decide on a color so I can take advantage!

[Renron]

Horio,
Excellent recommendation on the HBL due to it's higher solids content. Lay down twice as many coats as you think you might need. WB shrinks a lot.
If you can, wait a full week after the last coat before trying to buff it out. They get harder as they dry. Sanding between multiple coats is a good idea, ie; 4 coats in one day then lightly sand with 320 to knock off nibs and high spots, 4 more coats that day. Next day lightly sand with 500 and 2 finish coats the third day.
Cut the last coats with 10% water or use an extender to slow drying so it has time to flow out. This seems excessive until you see how thin the coats really are. This ain't no 2K pac for autos. LOL
Don't worry about dry spray for the first 4 coats it's just being sucked into the surface wood / epoxy pores.
Please update us with photos and ask any questions you may think of.

Luke, seal coat would not have helped much, maybe saved a couple of top coats, that's about it. It's not a filler it's a sealer. Besides more than 2 seal coats can lead to fracturing of the top coat later. Been there. Keep laying down coats and more coats, it shrinks back.
Remember it takes a full 30 days for WB top coats to fully dry. They are workable within hours of spraying but still soft underneath.
Ron

[Horio]

Ron, this is awesome advice from a pro, which is exactly what I need! So taking your advice and others into account, as well as the information from Jeff at Target Coatings, here is my new finishing procedure (minus final polishing/buffing):

Day 1:
1. Sand epoxy smooth/flat with 320 grit (skip primer since cabinets are sealed with 3 coats of epoxy).
2. Apply 4 coats of color tinted Target Coatings EM6500 (no thinning)

Day 2:
1. Sand with 320 grit to smooth out any dust nibs, high spots or runs.
2. Apply 2 more coats of color tinted Target Coatings EM6500 (no thinning)

Day 3:
1. Sand with 500 grit to smooth out any dust nibs, high spots or runs.
2. Apply 4 coats of Target Coatings EM7000HBL clear lacquer.

Day 4:
1. Sand with 320 grit to smooth out any dust nibs, high spots or runs.
2. Apply 4 more coats of Target Coatings EM7000HBL clear lacquer.

Day 5:
1. Sand with 500 grit to smooth out any last dust nibs or high spots.
2. Apply 2 final coats of Target Coatings EM7000HBL clear lacquer (cut with 10% water or extender).
3. Let sit for 2 weeks to allow lacquer to finishing curing prior to starting any polishing of the top coat.

[Renron]

Horio,
Excellent. Exactly correct, you my friend have indeed done your homework. I'm excited to see your progress in photos as you lay down layers of glory. Remember when you get a run let it dry then draw a razor blade over the run. poof gone.
You will love the speakers. I just listened to Ziggy Stardust and smiled the entire time.
I just finished restoring my 1923 Paramount rosewood banjo, came out terrific. 8 months later...... patience LUKE......patience.....
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Beautiful work, Ron, but I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Pretty quick, huh... just 8 months?


:lol:

[Renron]

Doc,
Thank you for the complements. It looks almost brand new. How's life been treating 'ya?
Right, 8 months was fast. Everything came off the instrument. Everything came apart. Frets were gouged / dished out so bad I couldn't play it.
Used a draw scraper to remove the old finish down to raw wood. Super glue is a standard in luthier repair. (who knew?) Had the frets pulled so I could level sand the fretboard and repair gouges via the Frank Ford method. I was lucky enough to live near a world renown banjo maker. I had help with final assembly. I did all the finish work. It is a very fine instrument that will live for another 100 years being loved and played.

[JonMarsh]

The photo looks almost like a catalog page with a picture of a new instrument! Or a lovingly kept hardly used one!

And realistically, 8 months is pretty quick for the kind of detailed repair and rebuild job you did on this, which I don't think we realized the degree of effort involved from your first mention, but should have guessed considering the 1923 origin date... the results definitely speak for themselves!


Now, I'm hearing ET's current project might be assembled (that is not the same as "finished") by around the end of this month- August- and given it roughly started on December 30, 2019, (first post, pre sawdust) that would make it an 8 month term baby if that schedule is realized. It was originally expected to just be six months, but it's currently at a crossover revision state of roughly V 2.5, I hear, and parts for the latest update should hit the dock on Friday, if UPS keeps their word.. They've been pretty good about that, considering the conditions...

I'm in the midst of my first full week back at work, and with our company digesting and integrating our purchase of Cypress Semiconductor into the organization, it's like the Chinese "proverb", "May you live in interesting times!". The marketing director of our team came down with COVID, too- (a lot of upper middle class folks around here don't take it at all seriously) but he's pretty much pulled through. The amount of work my manager would like me to do before my retirement date meets the classic military definition of a blivot- especially since the finance people informed me last Thursday that they want me to take my comp time and two weeks of vacation time before the end of the fiscal year September 30, so their books don't look as bad- that's blowing a pretty sizable hole in the work budget for which the best case previous GANT chart showed completion of the basic task set on December 11. Me, I'm not sweating it... to quote POTUS, "It is what it is". And that task set doesn't provide any time for me writing up stuff about this project... good luck to my manager with that. They do have approval to hire a replacement, but at 3-4 lower grades than I am... good luck to him or her, too!

But the time off in September will be great for me, as I'll be shifting gears and doing lots of logistics stuff for the upcoming move the end of the year.

Also on the bright side, the folks at SIMPLIS I'd been working with on the evaluation of their Magnetics Design Module offered me a sweetheart deal for adding the update to my personal license, so I sent them a cashiers check yesterday. I have in mind a couple of projects for which that capability will be very useful, and I need it to finish what I'm doing for my day job, too.

https://www.simplistechnologies.com/documentation/simplis/simplis_mdm/topics/2_2_introducing_mdm.htm

What this should be called is Magnetics Simulation Module- it doesn't do your design work, but enables a full simulation of the results of your physical design, including parameters for inductance, resistance, winding loss, winding coupling, and total power loss in the converter for specific operating waveforms. Very cool... and quite unique.


So, things are "interesting", without a doubt!

[Renron]

From the sounds of it, it sounds more like a Chinese curse.
Getting out early is a bonus Doc. Have a cold one on these hot days and enjoy yourself.
Ron

[Bear]

I'm in the midst of my first full week back at work, and with our company digesting and integrating our purchase of Cypress Semiconductor into the organization, it's like the Chinese "proverb", "May you live in interesting times!". The marketing director of our team came down with COVID, too- (a lot of upper middle class folks around here don't take it at all seriously) but he's pretty much pulled through. The amount of work my manager would like me to do before my retirement date meets the classic military definition of a blivot- especially since the finance people informed me last Thursday that they want me to take my comp time and two weeks of vacation time before the end of the fiscal year September 30, so their books don't look as bad- that's blowing a pretty sizable hole in the work budget for which the best case previous GANT chart showed completion of the basic task set on December 11. Me, I'm not sweating it... to quote POTUS, "It is what it is". And that task set doesn't provide any time for me writing up stuff about this project... good luck to my manager with that. They do have approval to hire a replacement, but at 3-4 lower grades than I am... good luck to him or her, too!

So is there a tinge of "I've been effing telling you guys this for years and you didn't listen. And oh, yeah, the cell reception in the Payette River Canyon is non-existent, so it could be days before I get back to you if you leave a message."

Back on topic -- beautiful work, gents.

[Evil Twin]

So is there a tinge of "I've been effing telling you guys this for years and you didn't listen. And oh, yeah, the cell reception in the Payette River Canyon is non-existent, so it could be days before I get back to you if you leave a message."

Back on topic -- beautiful work, gents.

your powers of perception and analysis are most remarkable... truly you are strong in the Force. Whereas the referenced management seems to only be strong in the Farce. There are further developments last Friday reinforcing that viewpoint which need not be discussed...

It is a remarkable but perhaps not surprising turn of events, that predicting the most cynical outcome is now usually correct...


For example, my Imperial spies tell me that the work which Jonmarsh was so excited about facilitating via his recent software purchase has now been cancelled...due to lack of the management team being able to hold up their side of promises made...

[Horio]

My wife has picked a color for the speakers, and a gallon of tinted EM6500 paint and 2 gallons of EM7000HBL lacquer has been ordered. Took advantage of the 25% off sale Target Coatings is running till end of this month, which was good since the piant and lacquer ran me roughly $70 per gallon.

[theSven]

I know that cost ��. I had bought some of these products earlier this year, but shipping was great and loved the product. Sprayed wonderfully and cleanup was easy. Glad you got a deal. Look g forward to your progress of paint photos.

[Renron]

It's expensive to do quality work. How much were the tweeters again? lol.
watch the humidity when spraying or you'll get water vapor trapped underneath the paint. It will find it's way out it just takes longer because you have to wait for the blushing to clear.
Looking forward to more photos, so I can enjoy the journey with you.
Ron

[Horio]

Temporary Bases

In preparation of my painting session this week, I made some temporary bases for the speakers. They served as templates for the holes for attaching the bases and for a painting platform/stand so the bottoms could be painted with the rest of the speaker cabinets.



I centered the temp bases to the top of the speaker bases, taped them down and started drilling on the drill press.



On the bottoms of the speakers, I centered the speaker bases (now with the drilled holes) and started the holes with a hand drill. After the holes were started, I removed the speaker bases and finished off the holes with a hand drill guide.



I then inserted the threaded inserts using a special bit (worth the money) and my hand drill on slow speed.



Final result is the speakers bases are ready for attachment to the cabinets, and you have a nice stand for the painting process.

[Horio]

Painting Begins

Did a last little bit of hand sanding, and then the painting finally starts! Setup a little spray shelter in the garage, did some testing with my Fuji Q4, and away we go. I'm definitely a spraying novice, but I'm super happy with how the Fuji lays down the paint. I'm using Target Coatings EM6500 tinted lacquer, with a 1.3mm tip and no thinning. It's laying down very smooth, and I've got 3 coats down already. 3 more to go, and then I'll let the paint sit for a while (probably a few months) before starting the clear coat process.

I let my wife pick the color, and she went with a blueish/greyish color.

[Bear]

Nice work.... and nice clamps!!!!!

[Renron]

Horio, Excellent work. Your attention to detail is exemplary. Letting the Wife unit pick the color is a stroke of genius! Happy Wife and all....
Pro tip:
When you sand to flatten the orange peel and dust nibs sand in an X pattern with a flat sanding block (1x4 with rounded edges is fine)
I also use as a sanding block the hard rubber floor anti-fatigue mats that are the el-cheapo variety cut to the size needed.
Stay away from the corners / edges when sanding the paint is thinnest there.
Ron

[_luke]

Looks great! I like the colour