HT front, which speakers, Audax HT, Modula Mt's, Natalie P's, BAMTM? please help

[clearwaterms]

okay,

I am new to the DIY audio community but am chomping at the bit as to which project to try first. let me start by saying that I am trying to accomplish. i am trying to build the front three speakers for my home theatre. I would like some advice. The way I see it is that I have a few options

#1, the audax HT kit the front MTM's and the WTMW for the center
#2, the Natalie P's and wait for jon marsh to design his WTMW (rumors say soon is what I read somewhere)
#3, The Modula MT's (least expensive option) but will they give me the SPL i need?
#4, the BAMTM, like the Natalie P's these speakers are MTM, which means my receiver is only going to see a 4 ohm load, and I'm not sure if it will like that, the receiver has a VERY sensitive overload protection circuit on it, so there is a good chance it will not like a 4 ohm MTM speaker. also there is no centers to match the BAMTM speaker, and Zaph puts on his site that the speaker would not be good in a horizontal placement due to it's poor off-axis response

I am looking for seamless integration of the front stage, that is important to me, so matching timbre is obviously something that I am taking into account very heavily. I have a sub woofer, and the ability to run these speakers in a small mode.

My concerns are this, with the audax HT kit, the build looks a little more difficult then with a basic two way speaker. With the Natalie P's there is no promise of a timbre matched center, just a center with matching drivers. with the modula MT's all the speakers would be matched, but because of the smaller driver count, the max SPL might be lower then my expectations.

The Modula MT's are probably a titch easier to build (being smaller) and I have a BOM that says I can build three of them for $330 plus, MDF, building materials, and finishing supplies. Looking at the Natalie P's, the audax HT kit, and the BAMTM's I have to worry about my reciever being able to drive a 4 ohm load.

does anybody have any suggestions?

[WillyD]

I vote for #2.

edit: Well, I totally forgot the part about the receiver probably not being able to drive 4ohm speakers.

Yeah, go for the Modula MTs then. Like Chas said, you'd be surprised at how clean they can play at higher spls.

edit#2: Never mind, I still vote for #2.

[Dennis H]

the receiver has a VERY sensitive overload protection circuit on it, so there is a good chance it will not like a 4 ohm MTM speaker.

Well, that pretty much rules out all the MTMs, including the Audax, leaving the Modula MT as your best bet.

[chasw98]

You would be surprised at how loud and clean the M/T's can get. They are also a very good first time project that could eventually be moved and used as surround speakers once you have "cut your teeth" on a project.

[Bri]

I am in the exact same boat at the moment. I don't want to hijack the thread, but wanted to throw out another option I am considering in addition to the OP's, which would be to build 3 NatP's and use the third one upright as a center. Is this a bad idea for any reason? I could also do #2, but am a bit worried about it matching the NatP (or Modula MTM) for the front soundstage. I love this board by the way - what a great DIY community!

[joecarrow]

Bri- there should not be a problem with using a Natalie Portman as a center, as long as it's vertical. This is a big challenge with a television, or in Clear's case, with a projector screen that is not acoustically transparent.

I wouldn't worry too much about the upcoming WMTW matching the Natalie Portman- I'm sure it will be a great match.

Also, a question- do you all really use center channels? I have a phantom center, and I'm not sure if I'm really missing anything. Sometimes I wish the dialog were louder, but I'm not sure if that would be solved by a center or if it's just how the movies are mixed.

[clearwaterms]

well, as for the MTM and 4 ohm load, I am not sure if it would handle it or not.

THis is the reciever I am using and it doesn't say if it's 4 ohm stable

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069809_299915436_tab=B,00.html?compName=PNA_V3_ProductDetailsComponent

[Dennis H]

Okay, the Pioneers will "handle" a 4-ohm load just fine but they may not play as loud as you'd like without the protection circuit kicking in. So, you could build one of the MTM designs and see how loud the Pioneer will play. If it's not loud enough to suit, you can always add an external amp later. So, back to square one on the decision making. Oh, except I'd cross the Audax off the list. Audax doesn't sell to the DIY market anymore so any drivers you buy will be old stock and replacements may not be available if one breaks.

[ThomasW]

The Pioneer website is useless. The specs pages doesn't show specs it shows features. The owners manual link is broken.

[cjd]

Also, a question- do you all really use center channels? I have a phantom center, and I'm not sure if I'm really missing anything. Sometimes I wish the dialog were louder, but I'm not sure if that would be solved by a center or if it's just how the movies are mixed.

Yes, you're missing things. The only time phantom center is almost indistinguishable from a real center is when you're using a 24" TV between to big speakers ideally placed about 6 feet apart, a few feet from the walls, with your seat in the sweet spot.

C

[clearwaterms]

Okay, the Pioneers will "handle" a 4-ohm load just fine but they may not play as loud as you'd like without the protection circuit kicking in. So, you could build one of the MTM designs and see how loud the Pioneer will play. If it's not loud enough to suit, you can always add an external amp later. So, back to square one on the decision making. Oh, except I'd cross the Audax off the list. Audax doesn't sell to the DIY market anymore so any drivers you buy will be old stock and replacements may not be available if one breaks.

I have a JBL 3 way center channel and at high volumes the impedence on the speaker must dip below a certain point and as a result the stupid overload protection kicks in. using my yamaha it works better. I might switch them, and put the yamaha downstairs if the sound quality is better and put the Pioneer upstairs... The pioneer likes the athena speakers just fine

[Dennis H]

Dolby Digital signals do something weird when there's no real center -- fiddle with the compression or dialnorm settings or something like that. Anyway, movie dialog can be harder to understand without a real center.

[clearwaterms]

well in an attempt to get this thread back on target, I am still looking for advice combining the three channels. As it stands right now, I am thinking about the Modula MT's as they can always be relegated to surronds later if I decide to upgrade. I was looking at the natalie P's as they look like a simpler cross over network, but in the end decided that although the cross over network might be complicated its a great over all sounding speaker...

here is a question for everybody... How does a DIY speaker such as the modula MT with it's apparent great design, and sturdy cabinet compare to commercially available speakers? Is this a pair of speakers that you would pit against speakers costing double say $800~$1000 a pair? (I figure total build cost after including spent router bits, wood, etc to end up being about $200 a speaker)

I realize that speakers are largely a listener prefernce type of deal, however when you hear a quality speaker, weather or not you like the sound there is something to be said about it. And I am thinking that with quality cross over componets, quality drivers like the RS's used in the modula designs, you would stand to hear a very quality speaker.

I have read reviews that compare them to Totem's, and also read reviews where they are compared to ascend 340s as well. In both tests they faired well, in both tests the tester already had the other speaker and found ways to prefer the other speaker. In both tests the modula won high praises for it's bang for the buck performance. Basically, I guess what am I getting at is when these speakers are done, will i be wowed? Remember that I currently have a 5.1 in a box system from athena, which came very well recieved, has plastic cabinets and the biggest driver is the 8" subwoofer.

[chasw98]

here is a question for everybody... How does a DIY speaker such as the modula MT with it's apparent great design, and sturdy cabinet compare to commercially available speakers? Is this a pair of speakers that you would pit against speakers costing double say $800~$1000 a pair? (I figure total build cost after including spent router bits, wood, etc to end up being about $200 a speaker)

One of the best ways to see how it compares to commercial speakers is to edit your signature and let people know what part of the country (or solar system) you are in. That way people can see if you are near by and you might be able to listen to them at someones home. OTOH, you have already read some comparisons. How much can you say in 1/2 a paragraph on the internet? I don't believe anyone that has built them has been unhappy with their choice. I certainly enjoy the 4 that I built.

Chuck

PS - You can't put a price on DIY :T

[SteveCallas]

You would be surprised at how loud and clean the M/T's can get

Ehh, don't mean to be a wet blanket, but in the listening tests I participated in, going loud and clean wasn't exactly what I would call a strength of the Modula MTs

[clearwaterms]

PS - You can't put a price on DIY :T

no, but if I am going to put a speaker together and invest $600 in the project, I at least want to know that I am getting a great value. If I am going to spend $600 and have speakers only marginally better then those values available online, then I have to really wonder if I wouldn't be better just buying a set of speakers online

[clearwaterms]

Ehh, don't mean to be a wet blanket, but in the listening tests I participated in, going loud and clean wasn't exactly what I would call a strength of the Modula MTs

do you have any links? examples?

[technimac]

Modula MT's or Audax HT MTM's?

Can't comment on the Nat P's or the BAMTM, but I've built and have a quad each of both the Modula MT's (TBFC/G version) and Audax HT MTM's.

First, the Audax MTM's are a nominal 6ohm load that almost any receiver can handle, and all parts are still available from Madisound and PE. Secondly, If you want to go that route, just order an extra driver of each to cover replacement if needed. These MTM's can put out "more" SPL's than the Modula MT's, but at what point is that better? When your ears start bleeding?

My current center channel is the Audax WMTW and it is a fine unit, producing excellent sound quality with a flat response, but it's big. Additionally, there is a Quatro15/PE240W 6.5cu/ft vented sub and a Peerless 10XLS/12XLS PR W/PE250W amp, providing low end support in my 6500cu/ft listening area.

There are a couple of reasons why I'm using the Modula MT's for fronts and surrounds. In my situation, when the Audax MTM's are placed on stands at the correct tweeter height for seated listening, they're a tad too tall and impede the view from the room. These are great HT speakers with a very "forward sound", but for music they somehow lack the "detailed" and "accurate" response that is needed for certain instruments and voices.

The Modula MT's fit the bill for my needs very well. The MT's have no problem keeping up with whatever is thrown at them. In fact, I'm looking forward to Jon's WMTW design and will build one as soon as it is available, to use in place of the "larger" Audax center. Everyone who has heard the MT's, with movies, concert DVD's or CD's, loves the sound for both music and HT. I don't know how many times I've heard the comment, "Wow, it's just like we were right there", after a movie or CD is finished. These are remarkable speakers for the price.

If I had a larger, enclosed and dedicated HT room I would seriously consider using the Audax system, but overall, I think the Modula MT's have a significant lead in SQ. If you had more power and wanted maximum SPL, the Natalie P's would be a logical choice for Mains and Surrounds.

[clearwaterms]

Can't comment on the Nat P's or the BAMTM, but I've built and have a quad each of both the Modula MT's (TBFC/G version) and Audax HT MTM's.

First, the Audax MTM's are a nominal 6ohm load that almost any receiver can handle, and all parts are still available from Madisound and PE. Secondly, If you want to go that route, just order an extra driver of each to cover replacement if needed. These MTM's can put out "more" SPL's than the Modula MT's, but at what point is that better? When your ears start bleeding?

My current center channel is the Audax WMTW and it is a fine unit, producing excellent sound quality with a flat response, but it's big. Additionally, there is a Quatro15/PE240W 6.5cu/ft vented sub and a Peerless 10XLS/12XLS PR W/PE250W amp, providing low end support in my 6500cu/ft listening area.

There are a couple of reasons why I'm using the Modula MT's for fronts and surrounds. In my situation, when the Audax MTM's are placed on stands at the correct tweeter height for seated listening, they're a tad too tall and impede the view from the room. These are great HT speakers with a very "forward sound", but for music they somehow lack the "detailed" and "accurate" response that is needed for certain instruments and voices.

The Modula MT's fit the bill for my needs very well. The MT's have no problem keeping up with whatever is thrown at them. In fact, I'm looking forward to Jon's WMTW design and will build one as soon as it is available, to use in place of the "larger" Audax center. Everyone who has heard the MT's, with movies, concert DVD's or CD's, loves the sound for both music and HT. I don't know how many times I've heard the comment, "Wow, it's just like we were right there", after a movie or CD is finished. These are remarkable speakers for the price.

If I had a larger, enclosed and dedicated HT room I would seriously consider using the Audax system, but overall, I think the Modula MT's have a significant lead in SQ. If you had more power and wanted maximum SPL, the Natalie P's would be a logical choice for Mains and Surrounds.

how would you compare the Modula's to a commercially available speaker? also, the build quality on your speakers is fantastic

[chasw98]

Ehh, don't mean to be a wet blanket, but in the listening tests I participated in, going loud and clean wasn't exactly what I would call a strength of the Modula MTs

Steve:
You need to come down to the land of sunshine. JonW stopped by over Christmas and listened to my M/T's built with the Seas tweeter and they played loud and clean. I cannot give you an exact decibel level but they can get uncomfortable while playing undistorted, especially with 600 clean watts driving them.

no, but if I am going to put a speaker together and invest $600 in the project, I at least want to know that I am getting a great value. If I am going to spend $600 and have speakers only marginally better then those values available online, then I have to really wonder if I wouldn't be better just buying a set of speakers online

clearwater:
I don't like to get into the game of "This DIY speaker is better than such and such a brand at a certain price point". I will say this though, the money spent on building a Modula M/T or most any other design on this forum will yield a speaker that significantly out performs most speakers costing 3 to 4 times the price of materials used to build the speaker. As far as your labor to build the project, that is even harder to put a price on. For example, JonW is currently comparing his Modula M/T's to a pair of Totem Forest's that he owns. He paid $2,000.00 for the Forest's used. They retail for $3,000.00. He feels the M/T's are at least, if not more, than 90% of the speaker the Totem's are. And his girlfriend judged mine to sound better than his when she heard them the other day!

I was in the same position you are a while back wondering if I could build a better speaker than buy one. I started out just building one speaker to see if it was true what all these people were talking about. Minimal investment, minimal time spent building just one cabinet and it gave me a feel for what it would sound like. I only know one other person down here in Florida that builds speakers and he comes to me for help. I know that around Chicago there are a bunch of guys that build and they listen to each others speakers to see what they sound like and decide if they would like to build a pair. My .02!

Chuck

[---k---]

Only build speakers if you enjoy building and are prepared to spend your nights dreaming about the next speaker you're going to build. If this is a 'one-and-done' project, just buy speakers. It isn't about saving money.

[clearwaterms]

Only build speakers if you enjoy building and are prepared to spend your nights dreaming about the next speaker you're going to build. If this is a 'one-and-done' project, just buy speakers. It isn't about saving money.

I don't know that I intend on this project being a 'one-n-done' but at the same time I have never built speakers before. I have done lots of DIY projects, and had great results, some I have gone back a second time, others I decided not to.

[ThomasW]

Ehh, don't mean to be a wet blanket,

Then don't.....

but in the listening tests I participated in, going loud and clean wasn't exactly what I would call a strength of the Modula MTs

That wasn't what any reasonable person would call a "test". It was a listening comparison, and not a very controlled one at that.

I had a pair of Modula MT's operating to ear damaging levels power by high quality gear. They'll easily play as loud and clean as any standard 6" 2-way.

[Jim Holtz]

Steve:
You need to come down to the land of sunshine. JonW stopped by over Christmas and listened to my M/T's built with the Seas tweeter and they played loud and clean. I cannot give you an exact decibel level but they can get uncomfortable while playing undistorted, especially with 600 clean watts driving them.



clearwater:
I don't like to get into the game of "This DIY speaker is better than such and such a brand at a certain price point". I will say this though, the money spent on building a Modula M/T or most any other design on this forum will yield a speaker that significantly out performs most speakers costing 3 to 4 times the price of materials used to build the speaker. As far as your labor to build the project, that is even harder to put a price on. For example, JonW is currently comparing his Modula M/T's to a pair of Totem Forest's that he owns. He paid $2,000.00 for the Forest's used. They retail for $3,000.00. He feels the M/T's are at least, if not more, than 90% of the speaker the Totem's are. And his girlfriend judged mine to sound better than his when she heard them the other day!

I was in the same position you are a while back wondering if I could build a better speaker than buy one. I started out just building one speaker to see if it was true what all these people were talking about. Minimal investment, minimal time spent building just one cabinet and it gave me a feel for what it would sound like. I only know one other person down here in Florida that builds speakers and he comes to me for help. I know that around Chicago there are a bunch of guys that build and they listen to each others speakers to see what they sound like and decide if they would like to build a pair. My .02!

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

You couldn't have said it better and your comments mirror my thoughts exactly. It's really hard to compare DIY to commercial speakers without having them sit side by side and listen to them. Even then, each will have their strengths and weaknesses.

I've been scratching my head wondering why Jon and Steve weren't experiencing the same thing as I with my Modula M/T's. Perhaps your listening session helped clarify what Modula M/T's are capable of. This is a fine speaker at any realistic price and is a killer speaker considering the cost to build them.

I am not that far west of Chicago and I'd be happy to host a listening session for anyone that wants to drive a bit. I have the Seas TDFC Modula M/T's, Natalie P's, Seas TBFC/G RS 3-ways and of course my Omegarrays to listen to. :T Lots to listen to if you're thinking about building one of the designs but aren't sure it's worth the effort.

PM or email me if anyone would like to hear them.

EDIT: I forgot about the pair of JH3 Reference also sitting in my store room. They're a custom Selah Audio design that Rick and I created a while back that tied with Salk Sound Veracity QW for 1st place at the 2003 Iowa DIY event. They make a great speaker to compare to.

Jim

[---k---]

Ehh, don't mean to be a wet blanket, but in the listening tests I participated in, going loud and clean wasn't exactly what I would call a strength of the Modula MTs

Steve,
I don't think we ever pushed them at my place. At the levels we were listening to, I don't remember them ever having problems. I thought they would handle the levels I would need in my room just fine. They may not make great 'party-type' speakers, but I don't think any of the other speakers being discussed here will either.

Did you and Jon have a differnt experance at his place? I know you said that Jon likes to listen to things LOUD. Maybe Jon should speak up, or is he still down in Florida vacatioing?

[Eric_C]

I do not agree this is not about saving money.

It is in part for me. I will not go out and spend 10K on a set of speakers, would like to. I would however invest 2K in a set of arrays that I expect to sound "as good" as the high dollar products. I also would not spend 4-5k on a set of assembled arrays.

Its partially about saving money and also about getting something I normally would not get. With the reasonable prices of DIY speakers and their quality levels I can now outfit the house with good quality sound. I can put a set in my wife's office, my office, our bedroom, and her work out room for the cost of what it would taken me to outfit our living room. That is if I were to purchase commercial speakers of the quality I expect.

Plus you know what your getting. I'd generally trust the comments made by the people on sites like these than your friends at work who may not have a true understanding of what they are paying for.

This for sure allows me to do more than I could, with a better end product, for less money. I really wanted to do a 5 channel amp this year but it just was not in the budget along with everything else. I found these Gainclone amps. I was looking at spending quite a boatload on a 5 channel amp. Now I can build one for 1/3 the cost and the same quality. We'll see as the parts should be here shortly.

Plus I did it myself, I learned something new, and that always applies in life. I tend to engross myself in things I'm working on...unfortunately usually too many things at one time but people will ask me the most off the wall questions because they figure somewhere along the way I looked into it

Back to the original point. Can you build something better than what you would buy in the store. I would say almost 100 percent yes. My reasoning if you do not need to take manufacturing goals into mind. I haven't delved heavily into the cost of the electronics but the price difference between poor, good, and great for building a crossover might only be $20 per speaker. So your building them yourself, whats $40 in the grand scheme of things. A beancounter at company says well $40 a pair isn't much, but we're selling 400,000 units per year, now its a lot of money and thats where cost cutting comes in. Unless your paying uber dollars everything you buy is a compromise of manufacturing ease, cost, warranty, and serviceability.

If you take a $30,000 car and a $60,000 car and look at the BOM for it, the 60K car only costs 7-10K more than the 30K car to build, the rest is the huge markup avoiding this cost cutting measures that they look at in volumes.

The cheaper or more expensive you get the more those numbers make a bigger difference. You can throw an extra $5-$10 at your speakers because its only a couple of dollars but a large company see's it in a whole different light and that is the compromise you live with in buying mass market products.

Sometimes you can tell, sometimes you can't but at least if you do it yourself you know you did it the way you want.

[clearwaterms]

Then don't.....
That wasn't what any reasonable person would call a "test". It was a listening comparison, and not a very controlled one at that.

I had a pair of Modula MT's operating to ear damaging levels power by high quality gear. They'll easily play as loud and clean as any standard 6" 2-way.

how many watts are you putting through these speakers? I was guessing that a 110w (thats what my stereo puts out) but was looking at building some amps that only put out 68 watts.

will this be enough power to drive these speakers?

again, thanks for all the help, im sorry that I am asking such noob questions.

[ThomasW]

The amp has the potential to deliver 150 watts per channel. We weren't using even 1/2 the available gain.

[clearwaterms]

I do not agree this is not about saving money.

It is in part for me. I will not go out and spend 10K on a set of speakers, would like to. I would however invest 2K in a set of arrays that I expect to sound "as good" as the high dollar products. I also would not spend 4-5k on a set of assembled arrays.

Its partially about saving money and also about getting something I normally would not get. With the reasonable prices of DIY speakers and their quality levels I can now outfit the house with good quality sound. I can put a set in my wife's office, my office, our bedroom, and her work out room for the cost of what it would taken me to outfit our living room. That is if I were to purchase commercial speakers of the quality I expect.

Plus you know what your getting. I'd generally trust the comments made by the people on sites like these than your friends at work who may not have a true understanding of what they are paying for.

This for sure allows me to do more than I could, with a better end product, for less money. I really wanted to do a 5 channel amp this year but it just was not in the budget along with everything else. I found these Gainclone amps. I was looking at spending quite a boatload on a 5 channel amp. Now I can build one for 1/3 the cost and the same quality. We'll see as the parts should be here shortly.

Plus I did it myself, I learned something new, and that always applies in life. I tend to engross myself in things I'm working on...unfortunately usually too many things at one time but people will ask me the most off the wall questions because they figure somewhere along the way I looked into it

Back to the original point. Can you build something better than what you would buy in the store. I would say almost 100 percent yes. My reasoning if you do not need to take manufacturing goals into mind. I haven't delved heavily into the cost of the electronics but the price difference between poor, good, and great for building a crossover might only be $20 per speaker. So your building them yourself, whats $40 in the grand scheme of things. A beancounter at company says well $40 a pair isn't much, but we're selling 400,000 units per year, now its a lot of money and thats where cost cutting comes in. Unless your paying uber dollars everything you buy is a compromise of manufacturing ease, cost, warranty, and serviceability.

If you take a $30,000 car and a $60,000 car and look at the BOM for it, the 60K car only costs 7-10K more than the 30K car to build, the rest is the huge markup avoiding this cost cutting measures that they look at in volumes.

The cheaper or more expensive you get the more those numbers make a bigger difference. You can throw an extra $5-$10 at your speakers because its only a couple of dollars but a large company see's it in a whole different light and that is the compromise you live with in buying mass market products.

Sometimes you can tell, sometimes you can't but at least if you do it yourself you know you did it the way you want.

thank you, that is EXACTLY the answer i was looking at. i figured there was a significant value to the Modula MT's, people the internet around rave about Jon's designs, and this I figured was an excellent way to A get into DIY speakers and B hopefully have an excellent finished product when it's done.

I am excited about building these, now I just have to warm up to the idea of warming up the credit card

[chasw98]

Steve,
Did you and Jon have a differnt experance at his place? I know you said that Jon likes to listen to things LOUD. Maybe Jon should speak up, or is he still down in Florida vacatioing?

He is still under the water in Key West (and avoiding computers). I didn't get the impression that he likes it loud, maybe because I start at loud and go louder. Don't know.

Chuck

[knifeinthesink]

One fringe benefit to DIY is that it tends to lead to more general audio knowlege which is very helpful when it comes to placement, room acoustics, equipment supports, building a system, etc.

Of course its possible to just follow the instructions and ignore the vast amount of knowlege available, but if your inclined to want to know more its all there.

Personally, I have had positive experiences comparing my very inexpensive projects with reasonably priced commercially available speakers. I haven't built any of the projects your looking at, so I cant comment directly, but I think you will find no matter what you do it will be very rewarding on many levels.

[Eric_C]

It is a good experience. When I put together my BR1's I learned a lot just from doing that. Some people say they sound as good as any speaker you'd get at BB or CC. Well I think they have the potential too however their too moody for my taste. I'll see how they are with a dedicated amp.

I also agree with Knife...I've learned quite a bit more of the smaller things that have more impact than spending pure dollars into a speaker.

Although DIY IMO is cheaper, its most likely is more expensive in the end I started out here looking for a sub/array combo. I went from building that to this week alone purchasing most of the stuff for the sonotube, a 50wpc Gainclone amp, and all the stuff I need to build room treatments except the final covering which I'm waiting for the wife to pick out.

I knew zero about electronics but now I can read a schematic which has served me elsewhere. I'm slowly picking that part up along with the math behind the speakers and wattage. These are all things that will eventually serve me elsewhere. I learned to use a router and basic woodworking, etc.

Its well worth it if you have the time and the space.

Good luck, I'm interested to hear how it turns out. Something I would like to start seeing though if a BOM with final prices for an individual. I went to pick up my sonotube today and they wanted $86 for 2 24x44 pieces which from what I read was expensive. We may not all pay the same price due to a variety of reasons but it would be nice to have a comparison.

Once all this is done my project which might run in parallel is to build a set of the MT's or Nat P's for our bedroom to use with my new amp. Be easier to plan if we had dollar amounts to shoot for.

[technimac]

how would you compare the Modula's to a commercially available speaker?

:agree: with what they said above about the qualities of the MT's compared to commercially produced speakers at several times the price.
If you choose to build the MT's, your next big decision will be which tweeter to go with - the RS28, Seas 27TDFC or Seas 27 TBFC/G.

[clearwaterms]

It is a good experience. When I put together my BR1's I learned a lot just from doing that. Some people say they sound as good as any speaker you'd get at BB or CC. Well I think they have the potential too however their too moody for my taste. I'll see how they are with a dedicated amp.

I also agree with Knife...I've learned quite a bit more of the smaller things that have more impact than spending pure dollars into a speaker.

Although DIY IMO is cheaper, its most likely is more expensive in the end I started out here looking for a sub/array combo. I went from building that to this week alone purchasing most of the stuff for the sonotube, a 50wpc Gainclone amp, and all the stuff I need to build room treatments except the final covering which I'm waiting for the wife to pick out.

I knew zero about electronics but now I can read a schematic which has served me elsewhere. I'm slowly picking that part up along with the math behind the speakers and wattage. These are all things that will eventually serve me elsewhere. I learned to use a router and basic woodworking, etc.

Its well worth it if you have the time and the space.

Good luck, I'm interested to hear how it turns out. Something I would like to start seeing though if a BOM with final prices for an individual. I went to pick up my sonotube today and they wanted $86 for 2 24x44 pieces which from what I read was expensive. We may not all pay the same price due to a variety of reasons but it would be nice to have a comparison.

Once all this is done my project which might run in parallel is to build a set of the MT's or Nat P's for our bedroom to use with my new amp. Be easier to plan if we had dollar amounts to shoot for.

as for the MT's and Nat P's here is what I am comming up with, from my extensive research, this doesn't include cabinet costs...

The Modula MT's with the Seas tweeter is about $110 a speaker, slightly lower or higher depending on cap and coil choices.

The Natalie P's are about $165 for drivers and cross over components.

Another speaker that I have considered is the Dennis M's 3 way WMTW center, however that has a cost of about $270 alone.

I posted earlier about weather to build cabinets or buy cabinets. To buy three .75 cabinets its about $190 from PE, to build those cabinets you could probably do it cheaper if you were happy with a truck bed liner finish. However when you include veneer costs, and MDF costs, etc, I have a feeling the costs will end up being negotiable at best.

so basically when it comes to individual BOM's I think there is really to much that goes into for anybody to give you a fair judge. If people build there own cabinets, how do they put a price on labor? they could put the amount of time they spent to build them, but that might not be fair depending on how good there wood working skills are.

It's funny because I am very excited to start this project, but way to nervous to spend $600 on something I have never done before.

I know what needs to be done, shop when drunk, then when Im sober post a list of what I actually bought with a question, what can i build with this...

[ThomasW]

DIYers don't factor in their labor, cost of tools, supplies, or consumables, that's not what DIY is about.

I know what needs to be done, shop when drunk, then when Im sober post a list of what I actually bought with a question, what can i build with this...

We'll assume this is a rhetorical question.

[JonMarsh]

You'll spend enough time building them even using prefinished cabinets. But, it's relativel painless time, doesn't require huge skills investment, and has a pretty good return at the end.

It comes down to whether you think the development of new skills and outlook that the process creates has some intrinsic value, too. All too many Americans are just consumers. Become a creator.

Then, maybe some day you'll be ready for something like these... as others here have done.











Now, these are rather at the extreme of the sweat equity curve, as the component cost to build is little different from the Modula MTM, and just a bit more than Natalie P's, but the investment in work in the enclosure is substantial. I never expected them to be a project others would build, but a surprising number have- Colorado Tom's being close to completion after a side trip to actually listen to them before veneering (the temerity!)

[cgr]

[QUOTE=clearwaterms]
I posted earlier about weather to build cabinets or buy cabinets. To buy three .75 cabinets its about $190 from PE, to build those cabinets you could probably do it cheaper if you were happy with a truck bed liner finish. However when you include veneer costs, and MDF costs, etc, I have a feeling the costs will end up being negotiable at best.

/QUOTE]

I looked at the PE cabinets as being my failsafe. If I completely messed up and made ugly cabinets that sounded good I could always buy the PE cabinets. Sticking with one of the popular designs gives you that option.

Like many people I started by making a subwoofer. You can build only one cabinet and there is no crossover to deal with; so in my case it was a perfect 1st project.

There is something to be said when you connect the wires and actually hear music for the first time. I couldn't believe that they worked!

[clearwaterms]

You'll spend enough time building them even using prefinished cabinets. But, it's relativel painless time, doesn't require huge skills investment, and has a pretty good return at the end.

It comes down to whether you think the development of new skills and outlook that the process creates has some intrinsic value, too. All too many Americans are just consumers. Become a creator.

Then, maybe some day you'll be ready for something like these... as others here have done.


Now, these are rather at the extreme of the sweat equity curve, as the component cost to build is little different from the Modula MTM, and just a bit more than Natalie P's, but the investment in work in the enclosure is substantial. I never expected them to be a project others would build, but a surprising number have- Colorado Tom's being close to completion after a side trip to actually listen to them before veneering (the temerity!)

those are the m8ta's right? those speakers are works of art, i assume they sound as good as they look? i also assume you need three men and a mule to move them given how heavy they must be...

as for weather or not to build the cabinets, I am kind of leaning towards trying to build the cabinets myself, I have a small table saw in my garage, but access to a VERY nice table saw at my girlfriends house (her father was a carpenter) and while I am not expecting to get the quality of work available on the PE enclosures, I think half the fun and excitement is in building the boxes. I am going to go to home depot and menards today to price out the MDF and see how much it would cost me to build three cabinets. I will probably buy the MDF and start building the cabinets and then when the cabinets are built (if I am sucessful, I will order the drivers) and if I am a failure, just order the cabinets online...

[chasw98]

I will probably buy the MDF and start building the cabinets and then when the cabinets are built (if I am sucessful, I will order the drivers) and if I am a failure, just order the cabinets online...

Just remember! It is much better to have the drivers in your hands so that you can measure them for the cutouts in the cabinets. It is a real pain to make a hole smaller when you find out the measurements published are an 1/8 of an inch larger than what the actual size is.

Chuck

[clearwaterms]

Just remember! It is much better to have the drivers in your hands so that you can measure them for the cutouts in the cabinets. It is a real pain to make a hole smaller when you find out the measurements published are an 1/8 of an inch larger than what the actual size is.

Chuck

thank you,

i will be sure not to cut the baffles until I have the drivers in hand

[---k---]

I've never built speakers, just a couple of subs so far, but if you need any help give me a shout. I got a few tools, the jasper jig, ect. I'm not that far from you. And, I wouldn't mind helping just to fill my lustful desires to build some speakers.

[CraigJ]

Help Jon,

After seeing Colorado Tom's M8tas, I'm in for the construction challenge of the M12tas. 8O BTW, I had a chance to listen to JonW's Modula MTs and was very impressed, and that was after we listened to the Isiris Junior.

Clearwaterms, it took me a year to decide on my first diy speaker and I will never look back. I love to build things; my house is filled with reproduction antique furniture and repro Tiffany lamps (even made some of the glass). Consequently, building speakers is fun for me and like Eric C., it's a way to acquire something I would not normally buy. I don't know your woodworking skills, so I would recommend buying one PE cabinet and making one, not three, speakers. This will give you an easier intro to building your own speaker, cost a third of your budget, allow you to actually listen to what you have made, , and give you the ability to say "I want two more, or I want something different."

Good luck with your decisions.

Craig

[JonMarsh]

Good advice from Craig, especially becuase the design of the PE cabinets is quite nice for a small box, has replaceable front panels (you can change your mind and redo the layout or drivers), and is easy to work with... if your first set look great as well as sounding good, this is a definite plus.

Then, there's time for mastering wood cuting, veneering (unless you get preveneered stocks), finishing, etc.

I enjoy the wood working quite a bit, but with the very limited spare time I have, my personal focus is more on the acoustical design issues- you can buy lots of good books on furniture construction and veneering and finishing from Woodcraft, Rockler, etc, but the acoustics stuff is a little harder to find locally.

Re the M12tas, I'm thinking about them carefully, will plan to document more extensively (though the ZIP file I send out to those interested in the M8ta is extensive). The M12ta will need a largish room to breath, like all monopole designs. Will be interesting to see how they'll work in a "shootout" with the current Isirs project. In a smaller room, the Isiris should be more faithful to the original recording acoustic and general detail from 50Hz up, but the M12ta will be a very full range system, no sub needed. Of course, for an 8" two way, the M8ta is also, having pretty solid output close to 100 dB down to the mid 20's.

The M8ta weigh about 110 lb each, I estimate about 125 lb for the bass module, and 50-60 lb for the mid/treble module for the M12ta. Maybe I'll be able to reduce the bass module weight a bit; I have some ideas, but no promises. The woofer planned for the M12ta weighs less than most 10's, because of the neodymium magnet system.

[CraigJ]

O.K., for slightly smaller rooms, how about an RS225, RS52, and D26NC55 in the M8ta?

Cj

[JonMarsh]

Funny you should mention that, as I'm considering converting my M8ta to a three way as an experiment using the Duelund crossover approach, though I'll probably retain my current tweeter (Hales Transendence) just because I don't want to rework the front baffle that much.

Should have roughly the same acoustical transfer function we're planning for the CC three way.



May need to look at cutting part of the midrange mounting plate to tighten up the mounting distance.


Now, understand that the M12ta will have greater output capability, ~ 6dB, and do 100 dB down to 16 Hz, but will obviously be a bit pricey (some would say hideously pricey) in comparison, considering the drivers... it's all relative... 5:1, perhaps? Probably not easy to swing with the WAF.

I'm ordering a DCX2496 to prototype some of these functions (or try to). It may be I'll have to use the emulator in LspCAD to do it right.

~Jon