Knights Mini Statement and 2rcc Center build

[sawdust]

Looks great! Don't get too engrossed in the sound right away, you'll never get them veneered!

[FroDaddy]

Looks great! Don't get too engrossed in the sound right away...

I think he did :W

[KnightsOfNi]

I think he did :W

I have no idea what you mean



Knights

[KnightsOfNi]

It has been a long time since I have reported in.
Progress has been slow but ongoing.
The battery in my camera quit, not discharged, just completely stopped working! 2 replacements are on their way!
Today I glued and clamped up my first Mini Statement. Sorry about the quality of the picture, (using the iphone again.)



I glued and pin nailed everything to one side with 90 degree clamps 1 by 1, then today I glued the other side on.
This picture shows the false bottom and the double thickness base.
I did not like the thick base on the drawing, so I increased the cabinet length and installed a false bottom to maintain the same volume.
I made the base double thickness because I may dado the outriggers into the base depending on the finished height.
Just an initial comment on the 2rcc center channel, the dialog clarity is outstanding. In some systems when there is a lot of ambient sounds the dialog can be lost, not on the 2rcc 8)
I will probably decrease the stuffing in the woofer section however, talking to Fro he wanted to tame the bass a bit for his application, for me though I would like a little more bass so I am going to experiment.
I am truly blown away by the level of support by guys on this forum, THANK YOU!!
That is it for now, got to wait for the glue to dry :T
Knights

[Jed]

Looks great Knights! Even better that you are enjoying the sound!

Regards,

Jed

[john trials]

I didn't like the look of the wide base either, so I made my Statements narrow with outriggers, too. https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=100 It'll be cool to see how you're going to make yours.

It's good to hear you like the CC. I'm currently (slowly) making the standard Statement CC. After reading your review of the 2rcc, you've got me wanting to finish mine.

[KnightsOfNi]

That looks Great John!
I talked with a machinist about making metal outriggers, but I think I am going to try solid wood to match the veneer.
I am waiting till the end to see where the tweeter height is and that will determine my spike length and dado depth etc.
That is the beauty of DIY it is cool to see different interpretations of the same design.
One question, is it worth the trouble to flush mount the port?
I was going to, but I am concerned about how shallow the flange recess would be, because I would need to trim the veneer.
Regards
Knights

[john trials]

I didn't flush mount the port on my Statements. I just used a jig saw to cut a clearance hole for the port, and that was it (the router I borrowed to make my speakers was a small one, so cutting holes with the jig saw was easier than using the router). It's a fairly rough hole (and the veneer was very easy to cut with a utility knife...no precision needed because the port flange covers it all). Even with the speakers away from the wall, you really have to make an effort to see the port, so I didn't bother flush mounting it...plus I don't think it looks bad when it is surface mounted.

I am glad I put the port on the rear, instead of the bottom. These are my first ported speakers, and at times I find it entertaining to stick my head back there and listen to what is coming out of the port (and the mid tunnels).

I imagine having a machinist make outriggers would be expensive. I'm lucky to have a milling machine at my work (I wish it was a CNC model, then I could get really creative).

[KnightsOfNi]

Well I finally got some work done!
I have been very slowly chipping away at them, but spring time seemed to find me so many other things to work on.
I brought them home to check on the mid tweet height and to install the foam on the inside.



And with the baffles



A better view of the inside



You may be able to see the false bottom in that picture, I made it taller without changing the volume.
Does anyone know if the Precision Port cut length is the same as the one in the BOM.
I could only source the Precision port in Canada.
I was planning on tall spikes and outriggers but now I have them home I think that standard spikes on outriggers will be high enough.
That is all for now
Regards Knights

[KnightsOfNi]

I had to take a break from building but I am finally back at it.
I have been working on the crossovers this weekend and I have got both woofer networks done



I am happy how they came out, the funny thing is that the 150 uf capacitors are physically different, one is longer than the other but they are labeled the same.
Any Idea why? Is it likely to be ok
I have one of the Mid Tweet networks done (note to self use a bigger board!! :W )



It is probably hard to tell but does my layout look ok?
Thanks again for all the advice.
Regards
Knights

[KnightsOfNi]

Cat 5

I know a lot of people use Cat 5 networking cable to make there own speaker wires, does anyone use it for internal wiring in there speakers?
I have 14 guage Neotech that I am using to hookup the crossovers to the woofers.
I am contemplating using Cat 5 for the Mid and Tweets, does this sound like a good Idea?

Also, on the crossover I noticed I have the 4 ohm resistor soldered to the ground rail before the 5.6 mfd cap.
As they are both connected to the same line I assumed that it was OK but now I am worrying about it.
These are my first speakers so I am fretting over EVERY detail!
Thank you for your help and advice,
Knights

[Jim Holtz]

I know a lot of people use Cat 5 networking cable to make there own speaker wires, does anyone use it for internal wiring in there speakers?
I have 14 guage Neotech that I am using to hookup the crossovers to the woofers.
I am contemplating using Cat 5 for the Mid and Tweets, does this sound like a good Idea?

Also, on the crossover I noticed I have the 4 ohm resistor soldered to the ground rail before the 5.6 mfd cap.
As they are both connected to the same line I assumed that it was OK but now I am worrying about it.
These are my first speakers so I am fretting over EVERY detail!
Thank you for your help and advice,
Knights

Hi Knights,

The resistor position is fine.

I've used cat5 and didn't like it. I prefer Bluejeans 12 gauge bulk. A side note is that we're not to discuss audio cables on this forum since the owner of this forum also owns a cable company.

Jim

[KnightsOfNi]

Thanks Jim for answering my question I was holding off building the other side until I knew for sure.
It made sense to me that it was ok, but I had a niggling doubt.
I was not aware that we should not discuss audio wire, thanks for letting me know, I will remove the question if it is viewed as disrespectful.

I have just finished with the foam behind the woofers, I cut the foam around the crossovers, does it matter if it touches or should I cut the foam right back?
I am assuming that placing the crossovers in the woofer compartments is the usual spot so you can access them through the hole.
Starting to come together paid visit #2 to the veneer shop to check on supply, finishing line on the horizon.
Thanks
Knights

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jim for answering my question I was holding off building the other side until I knew for sure.
It made sense to me that it was ok, but I had a niggling doubt.
I was not aware that we should not discuss audio wire, thanks for letting me know, I will remove the question if it is viewed as disrespectful.

I have just finished with the foam behind the woofers, I cut the foam around the crossovers, does it matter if it touches or should I cut the foam right back?
I am assuming that placing the crossovers in the woofer compartments is the usual spot so you can access them through the hole.
Starting to come together paid visit #2 to the veneer shop to check on supply, finishing line on the horizon.
Thanks
Knights

Hi Knights,

It won't hurt a thing if the foam touches the crossovers but don't cover them with anything. However, the foam should be positioned so it starts about 1 1/2" behind the front baffle. That gives the woofers breathing room.

Jim

[KnightsOfNi]

Hi all,
Made a rookie mistake and wondered if it is a big problem.
There was a sale this week on clamps so I bought 12 as I had borrowed them before when I built up my speakers.
So this weekend I glued on my baffles, all lined up and looks good, but..
Where some of the clamps were there is an oil stain, looks like I should have wiped off the pads!!
Is there something I should / need to do before I veneer?
I am worried that the glue may not stick properly.
I am planning Iron on Titebond original with paperback veneer.
Will I have a problem?
Thanks
Knights

[john trials]

I doubt you caused a problem with the residue from the clamps.

Prior to doing the Titebond/iron method of attaching the veneer, I coated my cabinets with 2 coats of a 1:1 glue:water mixture (3 coats on the exposed MDF edges). This sealed the MDF so when I applied the undiluted Titebond for the veneer, the Titebond wouldn't soak into the MDF. It also hardens the MDF surface, which was really good for a final sanding prior to veneer.

Try a small area of glue:water where you have the marks from the clamps to see if the residue repels the mixture.

[KnightsOfNi]

Well thankyou everyone who helped me so far, the center channel is done!! :B :T

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I installed magnets under the veneer so I can use a grill to protect the speakers from fingers.

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And a close up of the beautiful grain pattern

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I was planning on Zebrawood but it did not work out.
In the end I used figured Jatoba with 5 coats of Deft waterbase and it came out better than I can of hoped.
I now have the 'Mini's' to finish, can't wait so I can finally hear them.
Thanks again for everybodys help
Regards
Knights

[Jim Holtz]

The center looks great! :T

Jim

[snmhanson]

Looks great. Love the figure of the wood. How does it sound? I saw you had it up and running for quite a while now but I didn't see a report on your impressions. When I finished my 2RCC I thought it was a little light on the bass. The mids are great though and the bass has even opened up a bit since then.

Matt

[KnightsOfNi]

Hi Matt, I had the same impression as you, great mids and highs but light on the bass.
So I put in a lot less fill this time when I reassembled it. I have not been able to listen properly since, but Frodaddy suggested that less stuffing would probably help.
Thanks for your reply
Thanks too to Jim Holtz for continuing to follow my progress your Minis are next to be finished, can't wait :T
I am resisting the temptation to assemble them before veneer this time so I will actually finish them :W
Regards
Knights

[Jed]

Nice job nice on that CC! I love the veneer. As for the bass being light, I'll put it out there that the LP and bandpass sections of the crossover are exactly the same as the Statement tower crossover, so it must have something to do with the CC being sealed versus ported.

[FroDaddy]

Wow that looks great! Congrats on finishing the speaker, each one is a big accomplishment. Removing some stuffing might weight it more, so see if that helps some. I had to use a lot of stuffing since I was still getting some unwanted resonances due to my AV stand. The -F3 of the RS225's in the 2rCC sealed enclosure is about 50Hz.

[snmhanson]

I just want to reiterate that I am not at all unhappy with my 2RCC. While I was expecting maybe just a bit more bass, I get plenty of low end from my Monitors and my sub so the center really doesn't need that much anyway. Plus the mids and highs, which is the primary function of the center, sound spectacular. Nevertheless, I can't help but wonder what would happen if I threw a couple 2" ports in the back of the 2RCC. I quickly ran it in WinISD and it seemed to bring the F3 down by about 10 Hz with a gradual 1dB increase up until rolloff. Would that be to drastic a design change or might it be doable?

Matt

[Jed]

Would that be to drastic a design change or might it be doable?

Matt

If the modeling looks good, I say give it a try. Worse case is you just plug the ports if you don't like it.

[Jim Holtz]

If the modeling looks good, I say give it a try. Worse case is you just plug the ports if you don't like it.

Hi Jed,

What is the critical dimension that would impact the crossover? Height or width?

Jim

[Jed]

Hi Jed,

What is the critical dimension that would impact the crossover? Height or width?

Jim

The short answer is the height is the critical dimension in the center channel's case, but any change will influence the diffraction profile (which can lead to the need for a crossover change). How much so depends on a lot of other factors like driver orientation relative the baffle edge, or whether or not the change in diffraction is within the driver's passband in the circuit. For example, if someone wanted to do the 2rCC as a larger ported speaker with no mods to the crossover, I'd keep the height the same, as well as the location of the drivers relative to current locations, and then just extend the width and depth to make the desired ported volume. Since this is a 3 way, I don't think the added baffle width will contain enough change of diffraction within the woofers's passband to make a change in the crossover necessary. And since the tweeter and midrange are more effected by the edge diffraction closest to them (top and bottom edges), the added width in this case will not pose enough of a change in frequency response to necessitate bandpass or high pass adjustments.

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jed!

Jim

[FroDaddy]

I just want to reiterate that I am not at all unhappy with my 2RCC. While I was expecting maybe just a bit more bass, I get plenty of low end from my Monitors and my sub so the center really doesn't need that much anyway. Plus the mids and highs, which is the primary function of the center, sound spectacular. Nevertheless, I can't help but wonder what would happen if I threw a couple 2" ports in the back of the 2RCC. I quickly ran it in WinISD and it seemed to bring the F3 down by about 10 Hz with a gradual 1dB increase up until rolloff. Would that be to drastic a design change or might it be doable?

Matt

While the Monitors will have lower extension due to cabinet design, the dynamics of dual RS225's will provide louder and cleaner output (dynamics) around and above the -F3 due to having over double the cone area and displacement of a single RS180.

I had to overstuff my 2rCC due to unwanted resonances coming from my AV stand, so what this does is act as an EQ to flatten the bass even more. If you haven't tried removing stuffing yet, I recommend trying much less than I did or about 1.5lbs... or less. It's like adding boost without the negative side effects of an electronic bass boost.

As Jed has already said, adding ports wouldn't be a drastic change as you can stuff them if you aren't happy. I ran the model and didn't get the results you did. So you used two 2" ports, at what port length?

[Jed]

Thanks Jed!

Jim

Anytime, Jim.

Jed

[KnightsOfNi]

Hi guys this thread has gotten interesting.
Firstly I hope that my reply to the question asked is in no way taken as dissatisfaction or disrespect.
I was reading a thread on another forum and was disgusted at the way Jed was treated.
I personally feel that I owe a great deal of gratitude to guys like Jed, Jim, Curt and many others who have been willing to share their knowledge with me and us as a community.
I am staring at my completed center speaker in full knowledge that I could not have achieved it by myself.

The only time I have carefully listened to the center was when I first assembled it.
I played music through it and compared it to my existing center channel a Paradigm CC570v3.
My impression at the time was that the bass was better from the CC570 which was a much smaller cabinet so I was surprised.
I PMed Frodaddy as he has helped a lot, to tell him my observation and he told me that he had deliberately stuffed the cabinet to avoid resonances from his entertainment unit.
That made sense, but as I needed to pull the speaker apart to veneer it I left it as it was for the time being.
During this time however I have had no problem with the sound from it.(Other than making my Studio 40's sound dull!)
The dialogue clarity is outstanding, which is the most important quality a center channel speaker can have!
Now it is reassembled I put in a bit less stuffing but I have not closely listened to it.
Also it is fair to say that when I was listening to it closely, the speaker was just finished and the drivers had no time to break in yet, and I remember the Studio's were much better after some time.
This is the first speaker I have ever built and I am delighted with it and expect to have to tweak to things like stuffing to fit 'my' environment just as Fro did for his.
We move main speakers around in our environment and change toe in etc, to get the best possible sound out of our speakers.
Whereas we are usually limited in our location for our center channel which is going to cause a different result depending on our room.

Put me down as one happy 2rcc owner and I wholeheartedly recommend this design, with the caveat that the original was stuffed to avoid resonances and therefore you may not need as much polyfil as the BOM calls for, so stuff to taste.
Regards to all, and thank you for the continued insight.
Knights

[snmhanson]

While the Monitors will have lower extension due to cabinet design, the dynamics of dual RS225's will provide louder and cleaner output (dynamics) around and above the -F3 due to having over double the cone area and displacement of a single RS180.

I had to overstuff my 2rCC due to unwanted resonances coming from my AV stand, so what this does is act as an EQ to flatten the bass even more. If you haven't tried removing stuffing yet, I recommend trying much less than I did or about 1.5lbs... or less. It's like adding boost without the negative side effects of an electronic bass boost.

As Jed has already said, adding ports wouldn't be a drastic change as you can stuff them if you aren't happy. I ran the model and didn't get the results you did. So you used two 2" ports, at what port length?

They were initially right around 11" in length. If I shortened them down to a more reasonable 7-8" the bump in dB before the rolloff went to 2dB rather than just one. Also, FWIW, I used 41 liters for volume which is also what I come up with my sealed 2RCC. I will admit that I am new to all of this and just recently started using WinISD to (attempt to) model and measure different drivers/boxes. It is entirely possible that I am off a bit, maybe quite a bit, so hopefully someone else can run the numbers and show what they come up with. My measurements for the ported design were flat to about 58Hz (after the 1-2 dB bump) and at -3dB I got 45Hz. Also when I run the sealed numbers with the same volume I come up with flat to 100Hz and ~55Hz at -3dB. Maybe it's the 1-2dB bump that would be an issue. If I increase port length to smooth it out the curve gets closer and closer to the sealed box curve.

Additionally, one graph that concerns me a little is the excursion chart. I'm not sure how many watts to use for input power, but if I used anything above 3 watts for input power I started exceeding VMAX in the octaves around 25Hz or lower. However, since I cross to my sub at 60 or 80Hz I assume that wouldn't really be an issue.

I am sure this post reeks of an amateurville and I am likely not taking something into account or possible reading the results wrong, or both, so please go easy on me. I am just a new guy trying to get a grasp on all of this.

Oh, I will also add that it is possible that the seemingly lightness on the low end could be due to the material being fed into it. The night I finished the 2RCC up I remember setting it up (on end) as my left speaker and trying to do a comparison with the Monitor on the right. I can't recall perfectly, but I think that made a difference on the low end. So, maybe it is just that not many low notes get sent to the center. Maybe I'll sub it for the left speaker again to reexamine the result.

Matt

P.S. I also want to reiterate once again that I am quite happy with the speaker. It blows any other center that I've had out of the water in the mid and high range and still is no slouch on the low end. I just seem to have a never ending knack to tinker with my DIY projects

[Jed]

Thanks for the kind words, guys, and even better things are working out well for you in your system.

Regards,
Jed

[Jim Holtz]

I'll weigh in and add a few remarks about RS225 bass in a sealed configuration.

F/3 with the RS225's in a sealed cabinet is about 50 Hz. which is higher than you can get from a typical 6"-7" 2-way. It should be no surprise with a 50 Hz. F/3 that they won't shake the walls or crack plaster. However, RS225's sealed work great when combined with a sub and offer exceptional mid and upper bass. RS225's also offer much more impact and dynamics than that small 2-way even though it has a lower F/3.

So, if you're using them properly, they'll perform very, very nicely. They even sound great as a stand alone with out a sub but the lack of bottom octave is noticeable as you should expect. Used as a center channel as Jed designed them to be used and combined with either full range mains and/or a sub, the center will put a smile on your face.

My thoughts...

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Oh, I will also add that it is possible that the seemingly lightness on the low end could be due to the material being fed into it. The night I finished the 2RCC up I remember setting it up (on end) as my left speaker and trying to do a comparison with the Monitor on the right. I can't recall perfectly, but I think that made a difference on the low end. So, maybe it is just that not many low notes get sent to the center. Maybe I'll sub it for the left speaker again to reexamine the result.

Matt

Hi Matt,

Make sure your center is set to large and is getting a full range signal. Also, some receivers and pre/pro's won't send a full range signal to the center if the sub is turned on.

FWIW...

Jim

[FroDaddy]

They were initially right around 11" in length. If I shortened them down to a more reasonable 7-8" the bump in dB before the rolloff went to 2dB rather than just one. Also, FWIW, I used 41 liters for volume which is also what I come up with my sealed 2RCC. I will admit that I am new to all of this and just recently started using WinISD to (attempt to) model and measure different drivers/boxes. It is entirely possible that I am off a bit, maybe quite a bit, so hopefully someone else can run the numbers and show what they come up with. My measurements for the ported design were flat to about 58Hz (after the 1-2 dB bump) and at -3dB I got 45Hz. Also when I run the sealed numbers with the same volume I come up with flat to 100Hz and ~55Hz at -3dB. Maybe it's the 1-2dB bump that would be an issue. If I increase port length to smooth it out the curve gets closer and closer to the sealed box curve.

Additionally, one graph that concerns me a little is the excursion chart. I'm not sure how many watts to use for input power, but if I used anything above 3 watts for input power I started exceeding VMAX in the octaves around 25Hz or lower. However, since I cross to my sub at 60 or 80Hz I assume that wouldn't really be an issue....

In general I'm closely getting the results you did; we might be using slightly different t/s params but it's close enough. The ported config would definitely give the 2rcc more extension and bass. XMax does become exceeded in the low octaves, but that is also true for the RS225's in a ported Statement sized 100L box. If your placement is rear-port friendly then it could be worth a try. I have all my speakers crossed at 60Hz to my subwoofer; the Statements, 2rCC, and four compact sealed Statement Mini surrounds.

Well said posts KnightsOfNi and Jim. The 2rCC couldn't have happened without Jim, Curt, and Wayne making the Statements. So thanks to you guys, and of course Jed for making the 2rCC for me.

It's really cool to see you guys making and and enjoying this speaker! :T

[Drew_V]

I know it's been a while, but I was wondering if there were any further updates on the Minis? I'm about to get started on my own and I could use the help...

[KnightsOfNi]

Hi I am always willing to help out
The Minis are coming along well but slowly.
I just got back from a cruise so they have been on hold for a while.
I am almost finished veneering one speaker and the other is ready to be veneered.
I will be back at it soon and will give some updates.
Thanks for your reply
Knights

[Drew_V]

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you posted your crossovers. I wanted to get a sense of the layout before I started building mine and yours gives me a good starting point.

How well does hole in the front baffle line up with the mid driver tunnel? I've read where some people had good success building from the front baffle backwards, centering the mid tunnel on the front baffle cutout and putting the rear panel on last.

How did you do your front vertical edges? Did you use a 3/4" roundover, it's hard to tell from the pictures. My plan is to leave them square to simplify the finishing process, as I'll be using a HPL sheet from Lamin-art for veneer.

Looking forward to more pictures and maybe one showing where you mounted the crossovers if possible. I'm also going to port mine at the rear like yours, seal off the bottom, then build a different mounting base.

[KnightsOfNi]

I put the front baffle on last, basicaly I centered the baffle using the mid tunnel as my guide so the mid is centered perfectly.
I cut the baffle 1/4" big so I had some flexibility, then used the flush trim bit in my router to trim it up perfectly.
The front is rounded over 3/4" as that is how the speakers were voiced by Curt so I would not suggest leavind it square.
Regards
Knights

[Drew_V]

In my soon-to-be build thread, Jim commented that there might be a small measurable difference in high frequency stability by leaving the vertical edges square, but it very likely wouldn't be audible, especially in my listening room, which isn't the greatest to begin with. So as I said, since it will be much easier for me to apply the veneer with a square edge, that's the compromise I'm taking.

Good idea on leaving the baffle slightly oversized. I'll have to remember that.

[Drew_V]

Another question: How do you guys get a good chamfer on the backside of the front baffle cutouts, but somehow manage to avoid the areas where the T-nuts will be?

Is it just done carefully by hand?

[KnightsOfNi]

I marked the inside of the baffle where the screws came through
Then used a 3/4" roundover bit in my router avoiding that area
As you stated by eye
Regards
Knights

[KnightsOfNi]

Finally Done

I have finally finished the Mini Statements
Here are some finished shots



Low angle



High angle







My 2RCC again


Family shot



My Minis are rear ported hence no base, but I am going to make some outriggers and add spikes.
I set in some magnets in the baffles before veneering so I will probably make some grills to protect the speakers from curious fingers :W
I will add more comments later.
Thanks to all who made this possible ;x(
Regards
Knights

[Jim Holtz]

Beautiful! :T

Jim

[Jed]

Those look fantastic. I love the veneer and finishing.

Jed