Joining DIY crew - Natalie P build

[bd1000]

I have been reading a lot lately and wanting to build a set of front speakers for the beginning of my HT setup. Well I was thinking about starting off with the Modula MTs for practice and then I could use those as surrounds later when I upgrade the fronts. But, I decided might as well go with the NatPs since it wasn't too much more. I also ordered the Onkyo 707 to eventually power them.

I was sad when I assembled all the parts in my shopping cart, prices have gone up since 2005.

Well Im anxious to build them, Ill update this thread once I start putting them together and take some pictures of my progress.

Thanks for all the info!

Edit:
Here is the list of the crossover parts and my final shopping cart of items I ordered with the current prices from PE just for reference... I tried to make my order list in a nice picture with the part graphics, but the resolution wasnt working out too well, so Im just going to copy the jumbled-up list.

-----Crossover Parts------
Resistors:
004-20 Dayton DNR-20 20 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor x2
004-6 Dayton DNR-6.0 6 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor x2
005-.5 Mills 0.5 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor x2

Inductors:
266-355 1.2mH 14 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor x2
255-400 Jantzen 0.20mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor x2
255-408 Jantzen 0.47mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor x2

Capacitors:
027-402 Dayton DMPC-0.22 0.22uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2
027-410 Dayton DMPC-1.0 1.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2
027-414 Dayton DMPC-2.0 2.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2
027-418 Dayton DMPC-3.0 3.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2
027-421 Dayton DMPC-4.0 4.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2
027-428 Dayton DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2
027-430 Dayton DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2
027-436 Dayton DMPC-20 20uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2
027-440 Dayton DMPC-30 30uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor x2

Drivers:
295-364 Dayton RS180S-8 7" Reference Shielded Woofer 8 Ohm x4
275-130 Dayton RS28A-4 1-1/8" Aluminum Dome Tweeter x2
---------------------
Layout from Evil Twin's thread



--------My PE Shopping Cart---------
Part Number In Stock Description Qty. Price Ext. Price
004-20 Yes Dayton DNR-20 20 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor 2 $1.25 $2.50
004-6 Yes Dayton DNR-6.0 6 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor 2 $1.25 $2.50
027-402 Yes Dayton DMPC-0.22 0.22uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $0.75 $1.50
027-410 Yes Dayton DMPC-1.0 1.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $1.12 $2.24
027-414 Yes Dayton DMPC-2.0 2.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $1.48 $2.96
027-418 Yes Dayton DMPC-3.0 3.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $1.88 $3.76
027-421 Yes Dayton DMPC-4.0 4.0uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $1.91 $3.82
027-428 Yes Dayton DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $4.12 $8.24
027-430 Yes Dayton DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $4.57 $9.14
027-436 Yes Dayton DMPC-20 20uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $5.77 $11.54
027-440 Yes Dayton DMPC-30 30uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 2 $8.52 $17.04
081-422 Yes #8 x 3/4" Deep Thread Pan Head Screws Black 100 Pcs. 1 $2.45 $2.45
266-355 Yes 1.2mH 14 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor 2 $19.74 $39.48
CATALOG Yes FREE CATALOG 1 $0.00 $0.00
005-.5 Yes Mills 0.5 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor 2 $3.75 $7.50
255-400 Yes Jantzen 0.20mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor 2 $6.42 $12.84
255-408 Yes Jantzen 0.47mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor 2 $10.71 $21.42
260-520 Yes Sonic Barrier 1/2" Acoustic Foam w/PSA 18" x 24" 1 $8.97 $8.97
260-540 Yes Speaker Gasketing Tape 1/8" x 3/8" x 50 ft. Roll 1 $6.19 $6.19
295-364 Yes Dayton RS180S-8 7" Reference Shielded Woofer 8 Ohm 4 $39.39 $157.56
275-130 Yes Dayton RS28A-4 1-1/8" Aluminum Dome Tweeter 2 $48.65 $97.30
260-285 Yes Square Speaker Terminal 3-1/8" Gold Binding Post 2 $5.27 $10.54
Economy Shipping Home Delivery $0.00
Total: $429.49

[numberoneoppa]

NatP's are a very popular first project, though I can't speak from experience on either of the designs. Looking forward to your build thread.

[Woodworker_Jon]

Hello BD1000. I also am on my first project right now. From one noob to another, welcome.

[---k---]

Yeah, prices have really gone up. Combo of high copper prices and low dollar. Sucks... But, it is still a great value.

No need to start a new thread. Within the first few days you can edit the title of the thread, if you like.

[Kidsrapain]

Welcome,Vifa Rb kit.,Tritrix.,Zaphs BAMTM which I love.New to posting,but been in background for ages but I keep learning from
these talented people every day and I appreciate there help immensely!

[bd1000]

Hello BD1000. I also am on my first project right now. From one noob to another, welcome.

Hello! :T

[fbov]

... I decided might as well go with the NatPs since it wasn't too much more. I also ordered the Onkyo 707 to eventually power them.

This is the system I'm moving toward, but I built the speakers first. One thing I liked about this configuration is the large number of XO designs available. I found the on-wall/in-wall design was needed for my CC, standalone XOs for L/R pair. I also did the pair as a full-range design; 65L ported, and there is no lack of low end if you design for it. In a dedicated HT with sub, sealed 28L boxes like my CC would be all you need. The one thing I was most impressed with is the transient response, the attack of sharp sounds. It's not just subsonics that you feel!

Welcome, and have fun!
Frank

[bd1000]

This is the system I'm moving toward, but I built the speakers first. One thing I liked about this configuration is the large number of XO designs available. I found the on-wall/in-wall design was needed for my CC, standalone XOs for L/R pair. I also did the pair as a full-range design; 65L ported, and there is no lack of low end if you design for it. In a dedicated HT with sub, sealed 28L boxes like my CC would be all you need. The one thing I was most impressed with is the transient response, the attack of sharp sounds. It's not just subsonics that you feel!

Welcome, and have fun!
Frank

Is an 18" wall/surface threshold the general rule for the different XO's? If I ever made a CC I would probably put it on my electronic stand under the TV.

I want to build my front L/R first, then some surrounds and I may try to mount those on the wall (I think the MT boxes are around 12" deep).
I was going to do a ported box for the NatP's, but I would also like to build a subwoofer later down the road. I want to make tower speakers and not have stands, so that is the main reason. Later, I'll have to figure out what kind of sub to make and how to set it up to fill in well.

[bd1000]

got the receiver in today, waiting on the Parts Express package and Ill start making the boxes

[bd1000]

PE boxes came this morning! time to start cutting some MDF

[BeerParty]

Welcome to the club, and keep the pictures coming. :T

[opt-e]

Good luck with your build! You're going to have a fantastic set of speakers once you're done. I still use the ones I built a couple years ago in my main system. Would love to build a pair of Statements but I'm far too lazy Someday...

[bbcmp1979]

I'm about to start the same build. Is the $429.49 price tag for a complete set of natalie p?

[bd1000]

I'm about to start the same build. Is the $429.49 price tag for a complete set of natalie p?

No, look over the items in that list. It does not include the MDF and other building supplies

[bd1000]

Good luck with your build! You're going to have a fantastic set of speakers once you're done. I still use the ones I built a couple years ago in my main system. Would love to build a pair of Statements but I'm far too lazy Someday...

I plan to follow closely to your design; I enjoyed reading your build thread and really like how yours turned out. The crossovers, port idea, and overall finish was very nice!

[bbcmp1979]

bd1000 i'll be paying close attention to your build! :-)

[fbov]

Just for reference, I spent $375 for a comparable BOM almost a year ago (12/4). Of the $55 difference, $20 is the RS180s, $10 is the perfect-layer inductor (I went 15 ga air), another $10 is foam and binding post deltas. The rest of the BOM went up $15.

That's a true price rise of $35 over the $375 I spent, or less than 10%. Not as bad as I expected!

Enjoy your build! You will enjoy the result....
Frank

[geno742]

Good luck with your build! You're going to have a fantastic set of speakers once you're done. I still use the ones I built a couple years ago in my main system. Would love to build a pair of Statements but I'm far too lazy Someday...

Anthony, I'm in that same boat. I built my Nat. P's following your posted photos in about the same time frame. Thanks for posting those by the way. Very helpful.

The trouble with the Nat P's is that they do sound so good. To start another build is like fixing something that ain't broke.

Maybe if you started the Statements.....

[bd1000]

Today I cut the "countersink" rings for the speakers, and right now I am gluing on some 1/2" MDF to the inside of the front pieces to increase the thickness around the speakers. Tomorrow morning Ill try to finish the through-cutouts for the speakers and do the round overs on the backside.

For the speaker rings, I stacked up some shims to get the right thickness and then taped them together. Then I locked my router down when it was in contact with the surface of the MDF and used the shims to set the plunge depth gauge/stopper so that it would bottom out at that depth.





I decided to add the 1/2" plates before I finished cutting out the holes

[bbcmp1979]

nice looking drivers cutout :-). I'm waiting for my parts from partsexpress.

[opt-e]

Anthony, I'm in that same boat. I built my Nat. P's following your posted photos in about the same time frame. Thanks for posting those by the way. Very helpful.

The trouble with the Nat P's is that they do sound so good. To start another build is like fixing something that ain't broke.

Maybe if you started the Statements.....

Thanks geno and bd1000, for your kind words... makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that my thread can be of such help to you fellow NatP builders.

Statements.. one day

Look forward to seeing another pair of complete NatP's.

[bd1000]

I was out of town for the past 3 days, but I was able to do some more work this afternoon.



I realized just after I rounded the tweeter hole that it didnt need it; I was having too much fun with the router





I will be doing something similar to opt-e's rear panel for the port and putting my plug terminal on it as well (and doing a straight port without a bend since my box will not need such a long port).

[bbcmp1979]

bd1000, what bit did you use for the ring?

[bd1000]

bd1000, what bit did you use for the ring?

For the driver lip cuts I used a 1/4" up spiral bit, I used the same for the through-cut (the actual hole), I went down in ~1/4" depth increments. For the back I used a 1/2" round-over bit.

[bbcmp1979]

thanks bd1000. I end up using the up spiral bit for all the routing. I was going to use the 1" straight bit for the flush mount so I only have to do one pass. But decided to use the spiral bit any way :-)

[Hank]

Hi bd1000, I'm recovering from pneumonia and haven't been on here for several days, so I just read your latest PM. I'll be going to CES in Vegas on the 6th, but after that week, you're welcome to come over and talk speakers, esp veneering.
Keep up the good work!

[JonMarsh]

Hi bd1000, I'm recovering from pneumonia and haven't been on here for several days, so I just read your latest PM. I'll be going to CES in Vegas on the 6th, but after that week, you're welcome to come over and talk speakers, esp veneering.
Keep up the good work!

Ouch, Hank, sorry to hear that! Reminds me of back around 2000 when for several years in a row I got the flue every Christmas break.

Hope you're feeling better soon!

[JonMarsh]

I was out of town for the past 3 days, but I was able to do some more work this afternoon.



I realized just after I rounded the tweeter hole that it didnt need it; I was having too much fun with the router





I will be doing something similar to opt-e's rear panel for the port and putting my plug terminal on it as well (and doing a straight port without a bend since my box will not need such a long port).

Making good progress there! It can be a little tedious at this stage, but slow and steady gets the job done!

[bd1000]

I bought some acoustic foam from PE along with my order... but realized it was nowhere near enough to cover the inside walls. So, I got a small roll of R13 insulation and cut/peeled it to cover the walls. I used 3M spray adhesive to stick it on and I think it worked out pretty good.
I'm going to mount the XO on the bottom with some velco.

[---k---]

Probably better to mount the crossover to the side and put a big wad of stuffing on the bottom of the box. You want to stop that top to bottom reflections.

Zaph used to have a good blog posting on this, but it is since long gone. (I really wish he would archive his blog! At least the good posts!)

[Hank]

Jon, thanks for the thought. This recovery is disappointingly s...l...o...w. ugh

bd1000, your speaker building future is off to the right start, as you have several clamps, and you're using the RIGHT brand of spray adhesive :T
ops:

[bd1000]

Probably better to mount the crossover to the side and put a big wad of stuffing on the bottom of the box. You want to stop that top to bottom reflections.

Zaph used to have a good blog posting on this, but it is since long gone. (I really wish he would archive his blog! At least the good posts!)

I'll change that, thanks

[bd1000]

Jon, thanks for the thought. This recovery is disappointingly s...l...o...w. ugh

bd1000, your speaker building future is off to the right start, as you have several clamps, and you're using the RIGHT brand of spray adhesive :T
ops:

I recently learned that you can never have enough clamps! I wish I had more or some proper bracing material, but it worked out.

[bbcmp1979]

So insulating the box with R13 is fine right? Maybe I do not have to pick up the accousta foam from partsexpress. How much did all that cost you BD1000? Can't you tell, i love my local HD...

[---k---]

You line the walls of a ported box. You stuff a sealed box.

R13 is fine.

[bd1000]

So insulating the box with R13 is fine right? Maybe I do not have to pick up the accousta foam from partsexpress. How much did all that cost you BD1000? Can't you tell, i love my local HD...

I got a 15" wide roll for about $10. I only used a small portion of the roll, I just cut out sections and peeled off some layers so it wasn't too thick. I'd recommend a sharp box knife, some rubber gloves, and long sleeves.

[bd1000]

I finished building the crossovers. I hooked one up with the speakers set in my box to test them out... Can't wait to finish everything now!
Need to glue the back on the box, build the port, and paint it.

For reference, the board measures 6.5"x9"

[bd1000]

I changed the dampening layout from earlier



crossover velcros on the side



before I glued the back on



removable panel cutout on the back

[bd1000]

Is 16 gauge wire fine between the crossover and speakers? For the RS180's wired in parallel, should you run two wires from the crossover or is it ok to "daisy chain" the second one from the first's terminals?

[ThomasW]

Is 16 gauge wire fine between the crossover and speakers?

16 gauge is a little heavy for the leads on tweeters

For the RS180's wired in parallel, should you run two wires from the crossover or is it ok to "daisy chain" the second one from the first's terminals?

Separate leads to each speaker is best

[---k---]

16 gauge is a little heavy for the leads on tweeters

Really? I've used 14 ga for everything, because that is what I have. I knew that I could step the wire down to 18 ga for the tweeter, but I didn't think 14 ga was an issue. Can you expand on this?

[ThomasW]

Really? I've used 14 ga for everything, because that is what I have. I knew that I could step the wire down to 18 ga for the tweeter, but I didn't think 14 ga was an issue. Can you expand on this?

Only because it makes a VERY stiff attachment point after soldering. So sometimes it's too easy to snap off the solder terminal when manipulating the wire while installing the tweeter.

[---k---]

Got it, thanks.

[JonMarsh]

It depends on the flexibility of the cable you use- Thomas uses the APEX Mil spec teflon insulated silver plated wire, and that is VERY stiff. I use Cardas wire of heavier gauge, but it's a fine gauge Litz implementation. Still, I also use adhesive plates for tie wraps and secure the speaker leads so that stress on the driver terminals is minimized.



If you're using typical stranded vinyl zip cord style speaker cable, most of these use pretty fine gauge wire, and stress shouldn't be an issue.

[JonMarsh]

Nice looking build, by the way- you're making faster progress than I am on my current project!!