My Modula MT’s are done. Impressions and many pics

[Dennis H]

Two quick questions for you guys:

-I need to buy the 1,2,3,4,5,10, etc. resistors to alter the crossover a little. The resistors I have in there now are Mills 12 W. Should I keep with those or are 10 W resistors OK? My local shop only has 10 W ones and I see that Parts Express has either their cheaper Dayton 10 W ones or the Mills 12 W ones.

-(Maybe for Dennis) How did you know that R3 will influence the tweeter more than other resistors? It's closer to the tweeter in terms of connections. But there's probably something more scientific than that.

Thanks.

Any resistors will be fine for experimenting. It would be best if they are the "non-inductive" type. Ask at the store. Some high-power resistors can act like a small coil and roll off the highs a bit, not what you want here.

About R3, I need to make a huge disclaimer. JonMarsh is probably groaning about anyone messing with his crossover and I haven't modelled it to see what will happen. If he chips in and says it will wreck the crossover, forget me and listen to him. It looks like you can get away with changing R3 a little, like from 5 ohms to 4 ohms but, if you do it too much, it could muck up the whole crossover -- change the crossover frequency, get the tweeter out of phase with the woofer, etc.

It's easier to see the signal path on the Seas version. Trace the route the current needs to go through to get from the generator, through the tweeter and to the ground symbol. It goes through C1, C9, tweeter, R3, ground. So R3 is controlling the gain. The RS version adds C12 and R9 to give a little top end boost but R3 is still controlling overall gain.

[SteveCallas]

If using a manual contact switch (as opposed to a relay)

Thanks, but how about when it's less sophisticated than that....like pulling the bananas out from speaker 1 and putting them into speaker 2. Or keeping the two sets of speakers connected and switching at the amp end. We quickly turned the amplification off/on inbetween switches to avoid any risk, is there any way around that?

[Dennis H]

Steve, buy a cheap speaker switch box at Radio Shack. Of course that's still not optimum for a real A/B. You also need to adjust the volume as the louder one will often sound "better."

[SteveCallas]

No worries, it was a level matched comparison. A cheap speaker switch box would probably invite more criticism than a few second manual switch time :B

[JonW]

The point here being to briefly parallel both speakers, then switch from the original to the new, correct?

Naw- Much simpler than that. Just be able to switch quickly between different speakers. That might help us compar things better. But we want to be able to do it without damaging anything.

[jonathanb3478]

Naw- Much simpler than that. Just be able to switch quickly between different speakers. That might help us compar things better. But we want to be able to do it without damaging anything.

I understood your intent, I was curious about the reasoning behind Chuck's specific suggestion, actually.

[JonW]

Dennis-

Thanks for the excellent explanation. Much appreciated. :T

Any resistors will be fine for experimenting. It would be best if they are the "non-inductive" type. Ask at the store. Some high-power resistors can act like a small coil and roll off the highs a bit, not what you want here.

Got it. I'll call teh store and see if they have non-inductives. If not, I'll order some from Parts Express.

About R3, I need to make a huge disclaimer. JonMarsh is probably groaning about anyone messing with his crossover and I haven't modelled it to see what will happen. If he chips in and says it will wreck the crossover, forget me and listen to him. It looks like you can get away with changing R3 a little, like from 5 ohms to 4 ohms but, if you do it too much, it could muck up the whole crossover -- change the crossover frequency, get the tweeter out of phase with the woofer, etc.

Disclaimer understood. I wonder how much change I can get away with. I guess I'll find out with some experimenting. I find it interesting that Rolex, in his thread, maybe likes his speakers with that resistor completely bypassed. I'll try that with the Modulas, as well as with a bunch of different resistors in there (maybe 0.5,1,2,3,4,5,10). Hopefully I won't do any damage. I just ordered an LCM meter so I can check the resistivity of each varient to make sure I don't blow anything up.

It's easier to see the signal path on the Seas version. Trace the route the current needs to go through to get from the generator, through the tweeter and to the ground symbol. It goes through C1, C9, tweeter, R3, ground. So R3 is controlling the gain. The RS version adds C12 and R9 to give a little top end boost but R3 is still controlling overall gain.

Excellent explanation! :T The comparison to the Seas helps. Got it. For the RS28 version, do you say R3 has more infuence because it's of a larger value (5 versus 2)?

[JonW]

Any resistors will be fine for experimenting. It would be best if they are the "non-inductive" type. Ask at the store.

I just called the local shop and they didn't know what "non-inductive" means. Neither did I. So, to be safe, I guess I'll just order a small set from PE.

(This must be part of my idiot tax for not having learned electronics when I was younger.)

[chasw98]

I just ordered an LCM meter so I can check the resistivity of each varient to make sure I don't blow anything up.

I really hope you got an LCR meter, otherwise all my crack-dealing propaganda will have been for naught! :B

Chuck

[Dennis H]

Jon, don't worry about damaging anything; experiment away! The only risk you run is coming up with something that sounds pleasing but is actually messing up the woofer-tweeter blend. JonMarsh's crossovers aren't necessary like anyone else's so what works for Rolex may not work for you. If you come up with something you like, you could PM JonMarsh and he might be able to use some his copious spare time to check the change in the model and make sure it isn't doing Bad Things.

R9 and C12 in series are only letting the very high frequencies through so that's a form of EQ that you can see in the transfer function (voltage) graph. It's causing that slope up at the top of the tweeter's range to counteract the RS28's natural rolloff up there.

[Dennis H]

Hey Jon, jumping into one of JonMarsh's crossovers is like throwing a freshman chemistry student into a grad-level class. Here's a brief tutorial covering some of the basics.

http://www.passivecrossovers.com/

As an aside, my first 'formal' electronics training was courtesy of the chemistry dept. This was back when you had to club back the dinasaurs on the walk to class and computers used stacks of punch cards. In those days, analytical chemistry was a lot about how to build a gadget to measure this or that so they had a pretty decent electronics lab and taught basic circuit theory before getting into the instrumentation.

[JonW]

I really hope you got an LCR meter, otherwise all my crack-dealing propaganda will have been for naught! :B

But the dealer on the phone said all I really need to measure is inductance (L), capacitance (C), and modified crack content (M). He seemed like a swell guy so I went with his recommendation. :


I just ordered a small collection of resistors from PE. I wanted to support the small local shop, but oh well.

[JonW]

Jon, don't worry about damaging anything; experiment away!

Excellent. :T

The only risk you run is coming up with something that sounds pleasing but is actually messing up the woofer-tweeter blend. JonMarsh's crossovers aren't necessary like anyone else's so what works for Rolex may not work for you. If you come up with something you like, you could PM JonMarsh and he might be able to use some his copious spare time to check the change in the model and make sure it isn't doing Bad Things.

I’ll be sure to post the results, whatever they turn out to be. Unfortunately, I’ll be very busy with work/travel for the next couple of weeks, so it might take me a little while to get to it.

R9 and C12 in series are only letting the very high frequencies through so that's a form of EQ that you can see in the transfer function (voltage) graph. It's causing that slope up at the top of the tweeter's range to counteract the RS28's natural rolloff up there.

Interesting. Thanks.

Hey Jon, jumping into one of JonMarsh's crossovers is like throwing a freshman chemistry student into a grad-level class. Here's a brief tutorial covering some of the basics.

Hey, I resemble that remark. I read the standard speaker building books (Loudspeaker Design Cookbook and Speaker Building 201) to get some idea of how these things work. But my knowledge is still academic, and poor academic at that. One of the reasons I like trying to tweak this crossover is that it will help me understand things better. Chuck’s testing methodology helped as well. (Of course, the other reason I like this tweaking is to voice the speaker more to my tastes.)

As an aside, my first 'formal' electronics training was courtesy of the chemistry dept. This was back when you had to club back the dinasaurs on the walk to class and computers used stacks of punch cards. In those days, analytical chemistry was a lot about how to build a gadget to measure this or that so they had a pretty decent electronics lab and taught basic circuit theory before getting into the instrumentation.

Interesting. Electronics just never really came up for me. I’m pretty sure we had electricity back when I was an undergrad.

[SteveCallas]

Was in town this week for business and stopped by Jon's as he has been tweaking the Modula's crossover. Simply put, by modifying the value of a single resistor, the top end character of the speakers changed dramatically. Yes, everybody has different tastes, but the default crossover design, in my opinion, is too flat. By decreasing the value of that resistor (Jon can mention which one, I have no clue), the speakers gained a larger soundstage and had a more lively top end. In experimenting with no resistor, 2.5ohm, 3.3 ohm, and 4ohm, as compared to the default 5 ohm value, on my own music, I liked the 2.5 ohm. With Jon's music, which naturally has more top end energy to begin with, the 4 ohm sounded a little better. Overall I'd probably go with the 3.3 ohm to handle the widest range of music.

Then we decided to compare the Modulas with the varying resistances to the Totems. No matter what value we used, the results were nearly always the same. The Modulas had a larger soundstage, but the Totems just had a better overall tone...the overall sound package was just slightly better. In comparison, the Modulas seemed to have less top end control, almost like a minor echoey sound no matter what value resistor we used, even if we stuck to the 5 ohm default. You can't really fault the Modulas though, they sounded very good for the price. The difference wasn't huge - the difference between the Modulas and Ascends was larger - but I did prefer the Totems song after song.

I'd be interested in hearing some good line arrays......anyone got some around St. Louis/Chicago/Lafayette who'd be willing to demo them? :W

[Paul H]

I've just finished a pair of MT boxes myself. The drivers are the RS180 and RS28 (both shielded). I quickly cobbled together one passive crossover per Jon's design and hooked the other up with a Behringer CX2310 active crossover. I've done no measurements, and no tweaking of the passive xover, as I just finished them and started listening tonight.

Keep in mind my comments are based on speakers that aren't stuffed or filled yet, not properly air-sealed and don't have completed fully soldered connections - think duct tape and twist ties, albeit around a baltic birch ply box.

For thowing things together quickly, the active is the winner - because it is clearer. The mid-range on the passive is somewhat muffled by comparison. Either of them make a PSB bookshelf (had one handy) sound pretty poor by comparison.

Was in town this week for business and stopped by Jon's as he has been tweaking the Modula's crossover. Simply put, by modifying the value of a single resistor, the top end character of the speakers changed dramatically. Yes, everybody has different tastes, but the default crossover design, in my opinion, is too flat. By decreasing the value of that resistor (Jon can mention which one, I have no clue), the speakers gained a larger soundstage and had a more lively top end. ...

No measurements yet, but my ears agree - not bad, but a little flat.

Then we decided to compare the Modulas with the varying resistances to the Totems. No matter what value we used, the results were nearly always the same. The Modulas had a larger soundstage, but the Totems just had a better overall tone...the overall sound package was just slightly better. In comparison, the Modulas seemed to have less top end control, almost like a minor echoey sound no matter what value resistor we used, even if we stuck to the 5 ohm default. ...

I'm hearing an 'echoey' sound also - I thought I'd wired them out of phase, but switched them back and forth and it wasn't that.

I'll be listening to and testing both active and passive over the next little while. If I get any worthwhile info I'll start another thread and post it.

[Jim Holtz]

Modula M/T DIY Feedback..

Fellas,

I'm not sure what you're hearing but I'd check the crossover and try lining the cabinet walls with foam. I built the Seas TDFC version rather than the RS28 but the differences shouldn't be nearly as great as what you're hearing.

Check the attachment for feedback on my pair of Modula M/T's from 22 Iowa DIY attendees. The scale is 1 - 12 with 1 being horrible and 12 being perfect.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

I'd be interested in hearing some good line arrays......anyone got some around St. Louis/Chicago/Lafayette who'd be willing to demo them? :W

Go west young man, go west. I live near Des Moines. Selah Audio Omegarrays pictured in the avatar.

Jim

[philip_g]

Fellas,

I'm not sure what you're hearing but I'd check the crossover and try lining the cabinet walls with foam. I built the Seas TDFC version rather than the RS28 but the differences shouldn't be nearly as great as what you're hearing.

did he try stuffing the ports with wool? I noticed a little of the same and prefer mine stuffed.

Also agree with the flatness.

[cjd]

The shielded RS28 is not (in my experience) a drop-in replacement for the standard RS28...

C

[Jim Holtz]

No matter what value we used, the results were nearly always the same. The Modulas had a larger soundstage, but the Totems just had a better overall tone...the overall sound package was just slightly better. :W

I'm curious what drivers are used in the Totems? The RS180 is very clean and pretty accurate to my ears without any additional warmth added. Maybe a BBC dip in the mids with a Seas 27TBFC/G tweeter would be the sound you're looking for.

Jim

[philip_g]

The shielded RS28 is not (in my experience) a drop-in replacement for the standard RS28...

C

What was your experience?
I might have used shielded drivers but I have no idea why I would have done so.

[ThomasW]

I'm curious what drivers are used in the Totems? The RS180 is very clean and pretty accurate to my ears without any additional warmth added. Maybe a BBC dip in the mids with a Seas 27TBFC/G tweeter would be the sound you're looking for.

Jim

Looks like a Morel/DynAudio poly midwoofer. I doubt that they used the Hi-Vi clone.

The XO and poly cone midwoofer are likely the reasons for any significant difference in what people hear.

http://www.totemacoustic.com/english/products/floorStanding_forest.htm

It's sort of folly to be comparing a $400 speaker with a $3000 one. The fact that the Modula is as good as it is, should give people an idea as to the SQ of Jon's more expensive designs...

That said I bet that with an accurate measurements (Praxis) it would be no problem to "voice" the Modula MT's to sound just like the Forests...

[cjd]

What was your experience?

That they are not a drop-in. I've taken the shielded tweeter response and modeled it with a crossover designed around the non-shielded and it simply did not work. This on my MTM's, so ~1.8kHz crossover 4th order acoustic. I don't remember the specific results, but if memory serves there's a nifty hole in the middle of that rather crucial range, and something else.

C

[SteveCallas]

When I read the adjective-rich descriptions :roll: at Totem's website, and take price into account, I would have liked to have preferred the Modulas :B

The fact that the Modula is as good as it is, should give people an idea as to the SQ of Jon's more expensive designs...

It gets me thinking somewhat, but after hearing the Modulas and knowing the care Jon put in, his expectations, and the statements made about them here, I reached the conclusion - and I think Jon did as well - that in order to undertake a quality, relatively expensive (~$2000) diy speaker project, they would have to be "slap you in the face, better than you ever heard" speakers, and we'd have to be able to compare them to other speakers first as well. Sound quality is just too subjective. Again though, I would like to hear some arrays.

[Jim Holtz]

Looks like a Morel/DynAudio poly midwoofer. I doubt that they used the Hi-Vi clone.

The XO and poly cone midwoofer are likely the reasons for any significant difference in what people hear.

http://www.totemacoustic.com/english/products/floorStanding_forest.htm

It's sort of folly to be comparing a $400 speaker with a $3000 one. The fact that the Modula is as good as it is, should give people an idea as to the SQ of Jon's more expensive designs...

That said I bet that with an accurate measurements (Praxis) it would be no problem to "voice" the Modula MT's to sound just like the Forests...

Thanks Thomas,

I suspected that we were talking about either poly or paper drivers by the comments Jon and Steve were posting. I agree that comparing the Modula M/T to $3K speakers speaks volumes for the sound quality of the Modula.

I'm a detail freak and I've been on a quest the last few years to make my audio system as accurate to the live performance as possible. An impossible quest, BTW. My tastes and goals have pushed me to hard cone drivers. The more ruthless they are on bad/mediocre recordings, the better they sound on good ones. I've been able to find dozens and dozens of superb recordings that fit my musical tastes. When an audio system transports me to the original performance as I perceive it, I'm happy. :T

I also agree that a little crossover shaping could mellow out the sound to be very similar to the smooth, warm poly sound that I think is being talked about. It's all subjective when it comes to voicing.

Jim

[JonW]

Hi Folks,

Time for me to chime in here. First, to address a few questions or comments:

-These Modulas are not using the shielded RS28 tweeter, just the regular one.
-The walls are lined with poly batting. You can see it in the photo in post Forum of this thread.
-No stuffing is in the port. (Do people do that?)
-I’m pretty sure the crossovers are built OK to start with. Many of you were great in helping me get that good, as discussed in this thread:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23097

-If you guys want to know anything specific about the Totems (like if there is anything identifying the drivers), I can have a look when I get home tonight and report back tomorrow.

As far as the sound goes now, I’m liking the Modulas *much* better than before. That “flatness” or their sounding a little “dead” is gone. Raising the tweeter output has done wonders.

Big thanks go to Dennis for suggesting what to try. :T I put some alligator clips on either side of R3. Then ran wires out the port, to another pair of alligator clips. Bought a collection of 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, and 20 ohm resistors to clip in. I can also bypass the resistor completely (0 ohms) or unclip to keep the original 5 ohms. So I can have many resistor values between 0 and 5 ohms in there. Quick testing showed that anything below 2.5 is too harsh. 5 is too dead to my tastes. That leaves me with 2.5, 3.3, and 4 available.

I was leaning toward the 4 before Steve came over. As he mentioned, his music has less top end than mine, so his music leaned toward favoring the 2.5 and mine the 4. Last night I got out a stack of CD's with really different music- not with all the highs of the music I've been testing so far. I kept switching back and forth between 3.3 and 4 ohms. I think the 4 sounds smoother, nicer. The 3.3 can be slightly harsh. But by "harsh" I'm trying to extrapolate to what I think it will sound like with hours and hours of listening. In pretty much every case, the 4 sounded better. The 3.3 would almost give a headache or something (I was tired/stressed from a really long day at work so it might have been a perfect time to do the testing- or a perfectly awful time). The 4 sounded smoother, but it also kept the highs that I'm after. The 3.3 would sometimes sound better in the first few seconds of a song- more immediate and attention grabbing. But then be slightly harsh or grating relative to the 4 after 20 seconds or anything longer.

Then I pulled my gal into the living room and went through all the songs again. Kept switching the resistors back and forth. Didn’t really tell her what was going on. And I asked her what she preferred. Every time she preferred the 4. As did I. So I think I will go for the 4. Although I want to listen to some more music before making the final, set-in-solder decision. At that point maybe I'll edit the crossover picture and post it inthe MIsions Accoplished thread in case it's of any help to anybody out there.

Like Steve, my gal and I still prefer the Totems, but the difference is now very small. I might not notice any difference if I wasn’t able to switch between the two speakers, in the same room. The “dead” character was present for the Modulas in my house, at Ryan’s, and also Craig’s. But that’s gone now.

I must admit that I’m surprised such a small value change to one resistor can change the character of a speaker so much. Which is great- I’m learning. And I’m now wondering if I can just take any solid speaker design- with good drivers, xover, and cabinet- and then tweak things to my taste. And end up with something I’d really like. Hmmm…

[JonW]

The Modulas now have that high end sparkle that I like. So maybe we can call this the Modula MT-se (sparkle edition).

I hope Jon doesn’t mind my messing with his design.

The fact that the Modula is as good as it is, should give people an idea as to the SQ of Jon's more expensive designs...

Agreed. :T Heck, I’ve got it close to the Totem now. It’s really great.

It's sort of folly to be comparing a $400 speaker with a $3000 one.

I’m not calibrated to that yet. Is there ever a fair comparison to make? I’m just comparing what happens to be in my living room at the moment. So I hope people don’t think I’m complaining or anything.

But I am now wondering what they do at Totem to make that speaker sound special. I guess I could open it up and have a look…

[JonMarsh]

The Modulas now have that high end sparkle that I like. So maybe we can call this the Modula MT-se (sparkle edition).

I hope Jon doesn’t mind my messing with his design.



Agreed. :T Heck, I’ve got it close to the Totem now. It’s really great.

I completely encourage folks to put some Y in the DIY- my budget published designs are voiced to work reasonably well with a wide range of equipment and source material, and that means voicing a bit conservatively. Not the way I might if I had more guarantees about the final room configuration, placement, amplification and cables. As a reality check I use a 14 year old Sony HT receiver with modest cost interconnects and speaker cable, and a $300 Marantz CD player.


Now, if everyone would agree to sign up for first rate recordings (preferably SACD or vinyl), adhering to my own specified placement without fail, and spending 6X what the speakers cost to build on cables and interconnects, I'd probably voice them a little more agressively...

Jim' Holt's comments are pretty relevant, and to put it all in perspective, I think the current Modula MT is a WAY better speaker than the similarly sized "budget" MT using Scanspeak 7" midwoofers and moderately top of the line Seas aluminum tweeter from 10 years ago- remember those, and what they sounded like compared with the X1 Klone upper modules, Thomas?

[JonW]

I completely encourage folks to put some Y in the DIY-

Excellent. :T

my budget published designs are voiced to work reasonably well with a wide range of equipment and source material, and that means voicing a bit conservatively.

Interesting. I was wondering if such a "flat" presentation was where your tastes are. To my ears, bringing up the tweeter a little has made a huge difference.

[Paul H]

The shielded RS28 is not (in my experience) a drop-in replacement for the standard RS28...

C

I'm the one who mentioned using the shielded tweeter, not JonW.

Thanks Chris I'm not surprised that there may be adjustments required. I thought I may want a fully shielded speaker, and frankly I had those tweeters. I intend(ed) to measure and tweak these, and used Jon's xover as a good starting point.

Even without measuring and tweaking these are good speakers. My preliminary comments above were a little negative, but only because I was being very critical and probably unconsciously comparing them (somewhat unfairly) to the ones in my avatar which were (understatement coming) somewhat more expensive than these.

[HMenke]

Looks like a Morel/DynAudio poly midwoofer. I doubt that they used the Hi-Vi clone.

I've read that some (all?) of Totem's drivers are made by Tonsil SA out of Wrzesnia, Poland. Apparently Pioneer recently purchased a 10% stock interest in the fim. Supposedly Tonsil is the driver OEM for a lot of British hi-fi speakers.

The Tonsil GDW K11/100 is supposed to be the Totem Sttaf tweeter. The Tonsil GDN 13/40/2

Is supposed to be the Totem Sttaf midwoofer according to a guy on DIY audio http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...361#post928361.

This is supposed to be the Tonsil homepage but it doesn't seem to be active http://www.tonsil.com.pl/. However I did locate this page http://www.frampol.de/frampol_files/...tonowe_130.htm.



I also found what looks like a clone of the Totem Mite here
http://www.audiostereo.pl/Totem_Mite...aty_23573.html

[ThomasW]

Beats me I don't follow the assembled speaker market.

The looks of the Forest midwoofer is stereotypic of Morel/Dynaudio. Hi-Vi did a version called the D6.8

All these drivers are characterized by a weird square scalloped edge around the dust cap and a 3" VC. That's certainly something anyone could copy.

[JonW]

OK, OK- stop the speculation! I think there is some text on the Forest mid, like you can see in the photo Thomas linked to. I'll see what it says when I get home and then post it here tomorrow.

[Chris7]

The drivers Totem uses in the Forest are described in the Stereophile review:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/378/

"The Forest is a two-way, floorstanding tower loudspeaker with two drive-units—a 1" SEAS aluminum-dome tweeter and, below that, an Acoustic Technology International (ATI) 6.5" midrange/bass driver"

Note that Totem uses a variety of drivers across their lineup, from Dynaudio in their older models, to Peerless of India in lower cost models like the Rainmaker. They seem to be fond of the Seas aluminum tweeters.

I would encourage everyone to look at the measurements that accompany the Stereophile review of the Forest. I don't have any time tonight to comment, but it's pretty clear that most of the explanations of their sound are traceable there.

[Dennis H]

JonW, glad you got it tweaked to your liking. I think using the 4 ohm resistor to replace the 5 ohm is a good call if you like the sound. The thing about JonMarsh's crossover, and all crossovers really, is all the upstream components are sized to expect a certain impedance downstream. If you change the downstream impedance too much, you won't get the same frequency and phase response in the crossover region. So less change is better than more change as long as you can live with the sound.

[warnerwh]

All I can say is: What a Giant subwoofer!. Those speakers look very nice. I will have to learn how to veneer. I really like the look of alot of unusual woods.

[chasw98]

OK, Jon:
Interesting observations. But here is the next step if you care to take it and have nothing else going on in your life! :E
It would appear that you have increased the voltage to the tweeter by decreasing the impedance of a resistor controlling thus giving the unit "more" top end. I wonder what your impression would be if you were to rework the crossover for the Seas tweeter that Jim Holtz is so fond of and I have become a fan of. Every comment I have read is that compared to the RS28, the Seas gives what you are describing as looking for. I am no expert but it would be an interesting comparison in your case. It would be relatively inexpensive (under $50) to get the parts, but it would take time to take the (a) crossover apart and rebuild it for the Seas. I did this for my WMTW center. I used a RS28 with the appropriate crossover until the crossover for the Seas was designed and implemented so I got to hear the difference over a long period between the two in that install. Just a thought........ By the way, very good observations. You know you are a prime SACD candidate! Even if I have to send you the player and some discs to get you into it! :rofl: :T

Chuck

[rumatt]

so I got to hear the difference over a long period between the two in that install.

So was there a big difference? Speak up! :P

[JonW]

I looked at the Totems. No markings of any sort on the tweeter. On the mid cone it says "Hi-Vi Research." On the rubber surround of the mid it says "RH-6009" and then 180 degrees around from there it says "2"

[JonW]

JonW, glad you got it tweaked to your liking. I think using the 4 ohm resistor to replace the 5 ohm is a good call if you like the sound. The thing about JonMarsh's crossover, and all crossovers really, is all the upstream components are sized to expect a certain impedance downstream. If you change the downstream impedance too much, you won't get the same frequency and phase response in the crossover region. So less change is better than more change as long as you can live with the sound.

Dennis-
Thanks so much for the suggestion to play with the resistor. :T I’m liking the speakers much more now that I made that small change. Crazy how just a 1 ohm difference can change the speaker character so much, eh?. I owe you a beer.

All I can say is: What a Giant subwoofer!. Those speakers look very nice. I will have to learn how to veneer. I really like the look of alot of unusual woods.

Thanks.

[JonW]

OK, Jon:
Interesting observations. But here is the next step if you care to take it and have nothing else going on in your life! :E
It would appear that you have increased the voltage to the tweeter by decreasing the impedance of a resistor controlling thus giving the unit "more" top end. I wonder what your impression would be if you were to rework the crossover for the Seas tweeter that Jim Holtz is so fond of and I have become a fan of. Every comment I have read is that compared to the RS28, the Seas gives what you are describing as looking for. I am no expert but it would be an interesting comparison in your case. It would be relatively inexpensive (under $50) to get the parts, but it would take time to take the (a) crossover apart and rebuild it for the Seas. I did this for my WMTW center. I used a RS28 with the appropriate crossover until the crossover for the Seas was designed and implemented so I got to hear the difference over a long period between the two in that install. Just a thought........ By the way, very good observations. You know you are a prime SACD candidate! Even if I have to send you the player and some discs to get you into it! :rofl: :T

Chuck

Chuck-

Why yes, you know me well- it just so happens that I have *tons* of spare time on my hands! (ahem)

Actually, I thought about making one of my speakers into the Seas flavor to compare. Just like you’re suggesting. You all say it’s got more sparkle, etc. Not much cost in parts and such. I looked at the two crossovers (RS28 vs. Seas) and there is not too much in common. Would have to make a new one from scratch.

But there is an even better solution! Cobbpa (Philip) is stopping by my place next week with a pair of the Seas Modula MT’s. So we will get to do a direct comparison. Not bad, eh?

And about that SACD… Whichever DVD player I buy soon should have SACD capability. It’ll either be that Oppo 981 or maybe even the Denon 3910. If I swing by your place in a week or two, maybe I could hear the 3910 in person.

[ThomasW]

I looked at the Totems. No markings of any sort on the tweeter. On the mid cone it says "Hi-Vi Research."

Now you'll learn the "dirty-little-secret" about retail loudspeakers. The Parts Express wholesale price for those is ~$42ea. A mfgr buying them direct from Hi-Vi would pay less.

This is not meant to be critical of the midwoofers, they're a good poly cone driver. Jon's used them in a couple different systems, including the Elaine-Marie design that lead to the creation of the Modula MT

[SteveCallas]

You all say it’s got more sparkle, etc. Not much cost in parts and such. I looked at the two crossovers (RS28 vs. Seas) and there is not too much in common. Would have to make a new one from scratch.

But there is an even better solution! Cobbpa (Philip) is stopping by my place next week with a pair of the Seas Modula MT’s. So we will get to do a direct comparison. Not bad, eh?

I'll be interested to hear your results because I don't think a lack of sparkle was holding the Modulas back after that resistor mod. It was the slight echoey sound of the Modulas (only reveals itself when directly compared) and the overall better tone of the Totems.

[chasw98]

But there is an even better solution! Cobbpa (Philip) is stopping by my place next week with a pair of the Seas Modula MT’s. So we will get to do a direct comparison. Not bad, eh?

And about that SACD… Whichever DVD player I buy soon should have SACD capability. It’ll either be that Oppo 981 or maybe even the Denon 3910. If I swing by your place in a week or two, maybe I could hear the 3910 in person.

Oh yeah, I forgot about cobb stopping by.
I am not putting my impressions in here about the difference so as to avoid percieved bias (not that my impressions matter that much).

Yes, yes, if you stop by, I will not only be able to let you listen to the 3910, but also its little cousin so that you can determine if there is a difference in sound between a less expensive universal player and a more expensive one. Plus you will get to hear an SACD! :T

Chuck

[JonW]

Now you'll learn the "dirty-little-secret" about retail loudspeakers. The Parts Express wholesale price for those is ~$42ea. A mfgr buying them direct from Hi-Vi would pay less.

This is not meant to be critical of the midwoofers, they're a good poly cone driver. Jon's used them in a couple different systems, including the Elaine-Marie design that lead to the creation of the Modula MT

Yup. What, maybe $75 in drivers, maybe that much again in xover parts... and then lots of money for the cabinet, labor, benefits, design, tools, profit, etc. and you get to $3k.

I’m still a little curious as to what they do to get such a nice sounding 2 way. I could open them up and try to clone them. But there’s no fun in just ripping off someone else’s design, I guess. Wait, didn’t I just do that with Jon’s Modula MT’s.