SS 26W test data

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  • sdl2112
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 571

    SS 26W test data

    I have seen comments recently on the T/S parameters being off on SS drivers, some in the Ardent thread and elsewhere. I found this also a year ago when I first tested my 26W/8867T00 and found the T/S parameters quite different from the manufacturer. I emailed SS questioning this but they never responded. Since then I have seen tests by Zaph and Troels of the 22W paper and Aluminum and they differ as well. Seems quite common with SS drivers...why I don't know.

    Anyway I decided to try bucking magnets to see what affect it may have and it is quite surprising. I tried one and two additional magnets. Below is a pic with two magnets.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	111-1137_IMGsm.JPG
Views:	6086
Size:	47.8 KB
ID:	870159

    Here is actual testing in a 65l box.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	111-1138_IMGsm.JPG
Views:	5849
Size:	47.8 KB
ID:	870160

    The result of the standard 26W vs the 26W with (2) 120mm magnets added.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	36245-13_48k_65_56in_23%_merge_65l_std_w_2_120mm_mag_detail_crop.gif
Views:	6125
Size:	30.6 KB
ID:	870161

    Here are the T/S comparisons using SoundEasy.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	t_s_comparisons.gif
Views:	5929
Size:	8.0 KB
ID:	870162

    I tested the standard 26W using numerous methods and although the parameters changed between methods, the in-box simulations among the different methods were close as expected but not very close to the simulations with the standard SS data. With the added magnets the in-box simulation are very close.

    To me it just seems that some SS drivers do not have the same magnetic strength as the prototypes or in the original design. Everyone should definitely be aware of the variability on the T/S numbers.

    One thing that sparked my attention was the 26W/12867T special at Madisound. If I had to guess I think those T/S numbers are pretty accurate.
    Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:39 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15209

    #2
    Originally posted by sdl2112
    I have seen comments recently on the T/S parameters being off on SS drivers, some in the Ardent thread and elsewhere. I found this also a year ago when I first tested my 26W/8867T00 and found the T/S parameters quite different from the manufacturer. I emailed SS questioning this but they never responded. Since then I have seen tests by Zaph and Troels of the 22W paper and Aluminum and they differ as well. Seems quite common with SS drivers...why I don't know.

    Anyway I decided to try bucking magnets to see what affect it may have and it is quite surprising. I tried one and two additional magnets. Below is a pic with two magnets.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	111-1137_IMGsm.JPG Views:	5922 Size:	47.8 KB ID:	870159

    Here is actual testing in a 65l box.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	111-1138_IMGsm.JPG Views:	5715 Size:	47.8 KB ID:	870160

    The result of the standard 26W vs the 26W with (2) 120mm magnets added.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	36245-13_48k_65_56in_23%_merge_65l_std_w_2_120mm_mag_detail_crop.gif Views:	5992 Size:	30.6 KB ID:	870161

    Here are the T/S comparisons using SoundEasy.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	t_s_comparisons.gif Views:	5794 Size:	8.0 KB ID:	870162

    I tested the standard 26W using numerous methods and although the parameters changed between methods, the in-box simulations among the different methods were close as expected but not very close to the simulations with the standard SS data. With the added magnets the in-box simulation are very close.

    To me it just seems that some SS drivers do not have the same magnetic strength as the prototypes or in the original design. Everyone should definitely be aware of the variability on the T/S numbers.

    One thing that sparked my attention was the 26W/12867T special at Madisound. If I had to guess I think those T/S numbers are pretty accurate.


    Thanks for the posting and detailed analysis. I'm testing those 26W/12867 in the next week or so, so I'll have some feedback. I think your suppositions are pretty much correct.
    Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:40 Sunday. Reason: Update quote
    the AudioWorx
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    Comment

    • sdl2112
      Senior Member
      • Mar 2006
      • 571

      #3
      Originally posted by JonMarsh
      Thanks for the posting and detailed analysis. I'm testing those 26W/12867 in the next week or so, so I'll have some feedback. I think your suppositions are pretty much correct.


      I look forward to your results and your opinion of the SS AirCirc Be version.
      Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:40 Sunday. Reason: Update quote

      Comment

      • DoubleTap
        Member
        • Dec 2009
        • 34

        #4
        You know, I noticed the same thing about 2 years ago when I got my 26W's new. The specs weren't what I was expecting, sensitivity was too low and box size needed was too big. But those magnets might be just the ticket, can you tell us where you got them?

        The 26w being 'off' made me put my 3-way tower plans on hold, then life happened and now it's 2 years later

        Comment

        • sdl2112
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2006
          • 571

          #5
          Originally posted by DoubleTap
          You know, I noticed the same thing about 2 years ago when I got my 26W's new. The specs weren't what I was expecting, sensitivity was too low and box size needed was too big. But those magnets might be just the ticket, can you tell us where you got them?

          The 26w being 'off' made me put my 3-way tower plans on hold, then life happened and now it's 2 years later


          Sounds familiar....it stalled my project too. I believe I got them here. The company has many names so it is confusing and it is best to call them as they have other sizes not shown on their website.
          Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:41 Sunday. Reason: Update quote

          Comment

          • DoubleTap
            Member
            • Dec 2009
            • 34

            #6
            Thanks for the link, if I get the same results as you my project is back on ... Seas W16's and Scan 7000 tweets are in the basement as well, waiting to be paired with the 26W's.

            Comment

            • igy137
              Member
              • Jan 2008
              • 47

              #7
              I'm thinking about doing the same with my 26w/12867. I'm wondering if scan-speak magnet 107005 (http://www.scan-speak.dk/magnets.htm) is the right size for them?

              Also, probably stupid question, but is it ok to add plus 2kg mass with these magnets to the frame/basket?

              John, have you already tested your 26w/12xxxs?

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15209

                #8
                Haven't gotten to it yet- bumped by higher priorities to finish. Maybe in three weeks- next two weeks are probably spoken for already! This working for a living is really annoying... :W

                OTOH, with what I want to do, the higher Qts is just fine... preferred even.
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • villastrangiato
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 231

                  #9
                  Great thread sd! Maybe the asterisk SS puts on their test data means you have to buy the supah dupah $500 version of their driver to achieve the performance specified....... :B

                  Comment

                  • sdl2112
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 571

                    #10
                    Originally posted by igy137
                    I'm thinking about doing the same with my 26w/12867. I'm wondering if scan-speak magnet 107005 (http://www.scan-speak.dk/magnets.htm) is the right size for them?

                    Also, probably stupid question, but is it ok to add plus 2kg mass with these magnets to the frame/basket?

                    John, have you already tested your 26w/12xxxs?
                    Those magnets look like they should do fine. I would probably add bracing to back for support.

                    Comment

                    • igy137
                      Member
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 47

                      #11
                      Thanks for the answers, I think I order a set of magnets and give them a try.

                      Comment

                      • igy137
                        Member
                        • Jan 2008
                        • 47

                        #12
                        added double magnet to 26w/12867t

                        Well, the magnets arrived and some of those are glued on now, but it's really scary 8O how heavy is the one with two attached magnets... I'm really wondering if I can destroy the driver if the basket cannot hold that added 2kgs. I looked at how the magnet structure is mounted on the basket, and it seems it's hold with 3 screws only?!

                        On the other hand, I'd really like to avoid adding magnet supports as I'm not convinced this can be done precisely enough not to add just more tension between parts.

                        sdl2112, have you used finally these drivers with those added magnets? If yes, have you added any support to those magnets, or just mounted in the normal way?

                        BTW, Jon, have you got some "final" t-s measurements on your 26w's? My drivers are slowly burned in, and would be nice to compare my measurements to some more reliable

                        Comment

                        • Face
                          Senior Member
                          • Mar 2007
                          • 995

                          #13
                          DIY (Do it yourself): Cabinetry, speakers, subwoofers, crossovers, measurements. Jon and Thomas have probably designed and built as many speakers as any non-professionals. Who are we kidding? They are pros, they just don't do it for a living. This has got to be one of the most advanced places on the net to talk speaker building, period.
                          Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:41 Sunday. Reason: Update htguide url
                          SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

                          Comment

                          • igy137
                            Member
                            • Jan 2008
                            • 47

                            #14
                            Face, what do you mean, I don't see t/s there for 26w?
                            Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:42 Sunday. Reason: Upate quote

                            Comment

                            • Face
                              Senior Member
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 995

                              #15
                              Post Albums had some info on the W26.

                              Here is more:

                              Just a New Year's Eve teaser- at least the last of the crossover parts (cross fingers) "hit the dock" yesterday, plus those for the TMM version. Well, here I am today doing all kinds of responsible stuff like cleaning and organizing, instead of working on speakers, so the devil in me decided I had to do a small
                              Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:42 Sunday. Reason: Update htguide url
                              SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

                              Comment

                              • igy137
                                Member
                                • Jan 2008
                                • 47

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Face
                                Post Albums had some info on the W26.

                                Here is more:

                                https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=313


                                Thanks, I was specifically asking about t/s data to "confirm" my measurement setup as I have the same drivers here. ...and of course still wondering about that basket vs. magnet-weight dilemma...
                                Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:43 Sunday. Reason: Update quote

                                Comment

                                • sdl2112
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Mar 2006
                                  • 571

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by igy137
                                  Well, the magnets arrived and some of those are glued on now, but it's really scary 8O how heavy is the one with two attached magnets... I'm really wondering if I can destroy the driver if the basket cannot hold that added 2kgs. I looked at how the magnet structure is mounted on the basket, and it seems it's hold with 3 screws only?!

                                  On the other hand, I'd really like to avoid adding magnet supports as I'm not convinced this can be done precisely enough not to add just more tension between parts.

                                  sdl2112, have you used finally these drivers with those added magnets? If yes, have you added any support to those magnets, or just mounted in the normal way?

                                  BTW, Jon, have you got some "final" t-s measurements on your 26w's? My drivers are slowly burned in, and would be nice to compare my measurements to some more reliable
                                  Igy137,

                                  I haven't mounted them in a final cabinet but I would use a brace with some rubber foam/gasket material to account for some slop. Shouldn't be too hard.

                                  Comment

                                  • igy137
                                    Member
                                    • Jan 2008
                                    • 47

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by sdl2112
                                    Igy137,

                                    I haven't mounted them in a final cabinet but I would use a brace with some rubber foam/gasket material to account for some slop. Shouldn't be too hard.
                                    Thx sdl, I'll keep thinking about some solution like that. I was also thinking about holding the entire driver at the magnet structure and not the basket (something like Linkwitz did in the Orion for the mids) though I'm not sure that would be a good idea for woofers....

                                    Comment

                                    • DoubleTap
                                      Member
                                      • Dec 2009
                                      • 34

                                      #19
                                      Sorry to bump up this old thread, but I finally got around to ordering some magnets for my pair of 26W's ... they showed up today. What I'm wondering is which magnetic orientation do you affix the magnets? Do you glue them so that they repel up until the last inch and then attract the woofer magnet, or do you glue them in the orientation where they attract the entire time?

                                      I ordered some magnets for Scan 15w's and Usher 9848A's too, since the applications I'm planning for them both could also benefit from a touch higher sensitivity and smaller box needed. I'll post results from those tests as well.

                                      Comment

                                      • ThomasW
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 10934

                                        #20
                                        If you're trying to increase the motor strength the magnets are attached such that they attract the entire time.

                                        If you're trying to 'shield' the driver you attach them where they repel until the last inch or so..

                                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                        Comment

                                        • igy137
                                          Member
                                          • Jan 2008
                                          • 47

                                          #21
                                          Wow, I always thought they must repel the original magnet system.
                                          As far as I know, that's also how sdl2112 did the tests detailed in the first post, and I also did it this way. I still have two some on the shelve without magnets added, so I can give it a try later, if I'll have some time....

                                          If one tries with both, please post results here!

                                          Comment

                                          • ThomasW
                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 10934

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by igy137
                                            Wow, I always thought they must repel the original magnet system.
                                            That's how true 'bucking' magnets are installed when the goal is to contain the magnetic field radiating off the stock magnets.

                                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                            Comment

                                            • sdl2112
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Mar 2006
                                              • 571

                                              #23
                                              I think you will find that the only way to increase the motor strength is in the bucking orientation, it repels the rear stray flux forcing some increase through the main gap.

                                              Comment

                                              • igy137
                                                Member
                                                • Jan 2008
                                                • 47

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by sdl2112
                                                I think you will find that the only way to increase the motor strength is in the bucking orientation, it repels the rear stray flux forcing some increase through the main gap.
                                                Yes, that's how I knew, too, was surprised on the other direction, and would be happy if that's the right way as this is how I done ;-)

                                                Comment

                                                • Jonasz
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                  • 852

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by sdl2112
                                                  I have seen comments recently on the T/S parameters being off on SS drivers, some in the Ardent thread and elsewhere. I found this also a year ago when I first tested my 26W/8867T00 and found the T/S parameters quite different from the manufacturer. I emailed SS questioning this but they never responded. Since then I have seen tests by Zaph and Troels of the 22W paper and Aluminum and they differ as well. Seems quite common with SS drivers...why I don't know.

                                                  Anyway I decided to try bucking magnets to see what affect it may have and it is quite surprising. I tried one and two additional magnets. Below is a pic with two magnets.

                                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	111-1137_IMGsm.JPG Views:	5923 Size:	47.8 KB ID:	870159

                                                  Here is actual testing in a 65l box.

                                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	111-1138_IMGsm.JPG Views:	5716 Size:	47.8 KB ID:	870160

                                                  The result of the standard 26W vs the 26W with (2) 120mm magnets added.

                                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	36245-13_48k_65_56in_23%_merge_65l_std_w_2_120mm_mag_detail_crop.gif Views:	5993 Size:	30.6 KB ID:	870161

                                                  Here are the T/S comparisons using SoundEasy.

                                                  Click image for larger version  Name:	t_s_comparisons.gif Views:	5795 Size:	8.0 KB ID:	870162

                                                  I tested the standard 26W using numerous methods and although the parameters changed between methods, the in-box simulations among the different methods were close as expected but not very close to the simulations with the standard SS data. With the added magnets the in-box simulation are very close.

                                                  To me it just seems that some SS drivers do not have the same magnetic strength as the prototypes or in the original design. Everyone should definitely be aware of the variability on the T/S numbers.

                                                  One thing that sparked my attention was the 26W/12867T special at Madisound. If I had to guess I think those T/S numbers are pretty accurate.


                                                  So using the measured data of the original driver gives me a Qtc of 0,62 in a 52 liter box with heavy filling. Can someone confirm this? Seems a little too good to be true. I used Bassbox Pro for the sim.

                                                  Thanks!
                                                  Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 13:44 Sunday. Reason: Update quote

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Jonasz
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                    • 852

                                                    #26
                                                    Noone? 😃

                                                    Comment

                                                    • sdl2112
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Mar 2006
                                                      • 571

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Jonasz
                                                      So using the measured data of the original driver gives me a Qtc of 0,62 in a 52 liter box with heavy filling. Can someone confirm this? Seems a little too good to be true. I used Bassbox Pro for the sim.

                                                      Thanks!
                                                      Using my measured data without the added magnets in UniBox yields a Qtc of 0.694 in a 52l box, heavy fill and a source resistance of 0.2 ohms. Of course that's with my measured speakers YMMV. What's your plans?

                                                      Scott

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Jonasz
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                        • 852

                                                        #28
                                                        Thanks Scott!

                                                        I have a pair of boxes made for another driver but I stumbled on a deal for the 8867's I could not refuse. So I was thinking I could use them instead.

                                                        The intended use is 80-300hz. The other drivers (two Seas 8") had a qtc of 0.5 and I'm just afraid the 8867 will be too "loose" sounding, I hate undefined bass... :B

                                                        What's your take on this? Is there a huge difference in q 0,5 and 0,7? Don't think I've ever made a closed box before so these q's are just numbers to me.

                                                        The speakers are intended as a high quality HT- and classic rock system. :T I'm using dipoles today so I'm used to articulate bass and don't want too loose too much of that.

                                                        Everyone is oc welcome to add their view on this.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Jonasz
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                          • 852

                                                          #29
                                                          Oh, forgot, do you think your measured data is typical of most 8867 or did you get a "bad batch"?

                                                          The test of 4867 in Hobby Hifi gave the t/s:
                                                          fs 16 hz
                                                          vas 329 l
                                                          qts 0.33
                                                          bl 7

                                                          SS official data are:
                                                          fs 18 hz
                                                          vas 220 l
                                                          qts 0.29
                                                          bl 8.3

                                                          Evidently there's some differencies between SS's own and 3rd party measurements.

                                                          Otherwise they seem like super nice drivers, 3rd order distortion of the 4867 are way below 0.1% all the way between 70 and 900hz at 90dB. Off axis (30 degrees) is down about 2 dB at 1khz. Could make a killer 2-way with a wg-tweeter and a steep crossover! :B

                                                          Comment

                                                          • sdl2112
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Mar 2006
                                                            • 571

                                                            #30
                                                            I expect you will find the bass quite defined. You could always try adding magnets to lower the Q even more.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • sdl2112
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Mar 2006
                                                              • 571

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Jonasz
                                                              Oh, forgot, do you think your measured data is typical of most 8867 or did you get a "bad batch"?

                                                              The test of 4867 in Hobby Hifi gave the t/s:
                                                              fs 16 hz
                                                              vas 329 l
                                                              qts 0.33
                                                              bl 7

                                                              SS official data are:
                                                              fs 18 hz
                                                              vas 220 l
                                                              qts 0.29
                                                              bl 8.3

                                                              Evidently there's some differencies between SS's own and 3rd party measurements.

                                                              Otherwise they seem like super nice drivers, 3rd order distortion of the 4867 are way below 0.1% all the way between 70 and 900hz at 90dB. Off axis (30 degrees) is down about 2 dB at 1khz. Could make a killer 2-way with a wg-tweeter and a steep crossover! :B
                                                              Hard to tell. I have four 22Ws that are off about the same amount. A lot of the differences seen are due to testing drive level...the inbox response may still be close. One thing I see as the same in my testing is the reduced bl (motor strength). I plugged the Hobby HiFi data in UniBox and it shows a mass of only 43gms vs 51gms in the data sheet...this has me a little suspicious of their data. I expect the mass to be pretty accurate from the data sheet. Their Vas seems high. The other values look like it was tested at high drive levels. Both Fs and Qts go down with drive level which kind of cancels each other out in the final box response. If the Vas were 280l the mass would then be 51grms and the response would be just like the differences I see in mine.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Jonasz
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2004
                                                                • 852

                                                                #32
                                                                I guess you guys have already seen this: http://medleysmusings.com/scanspeak-revelator-26w8867t/
                                                                Apart from the obvious high qts it seems like a really really nice woofer with Le lower than SS specs and a real world xmax of 9.8mm. ;x(

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15209

                                                                  #33
                                                                  No, I hadn't seen that result. But yes, I think the 26W is a pretty nice driver, high Qts and all... (certainly nice for some things...)

                                                                  I have a similar opinion of the 22W/8857T-00; no one is ever going to call it a value leader, but the performance is quite solid.
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

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