New and need help on Home Theater setup:)

[ClintonH]

Hi guys, new to the DIY audio world and would like some direction on a DIY home theater setup if you don't mind. I finished my theater a few weeks ago and love the setup minus some of the Audio. I went cheap on it as I bought everything at once and the wife limited the budget. After watching a few movies she agrees we need to upgrade the audio, we're missing alot of the mid range I believe. I have the QuinteIII for the front and surrounds and a RPW-10 for the sub. I'm good with the bass right now, actually had to turn it down a bit. This is setup in a dedicated 28'X11'X7.5' room, here's a link to pictures If it matters. Amp is a Denon AVR-788 and these will be used 90% for movies and 10% music/gaming(PS3).

I have been out the last few days demoing quit a few sets of speakers with the wife and we both agree for use that the Klipsch is the kind of sound we like. These are the ones that would be what would upgrade with if I don't go the DIY route. RF-62 Now for the point of this thread, Is there any design that anyone could suggest that would be close in sound and efficiency as the Klipsch? I was hoping to keep the QuintetIII's as the rear 4 speakers and just upgrade the front 3 if I can. If not than they will just go upstairs for the 50" SXRD. Thanks for any direction you guys can give.

Clinton

[cjd]

Sensitivity, if those're real numbers, is going to be really tough to find in the DIY world. 88-90dB tends to be high sensitivity offerings around here. Unless you have a very low wattage amp though, that's still very very good, so i would not recommend you consider sensitivity to be a show-stopper.

That said, my first thought is that Zaph's ZDT3.5 and the matching center might be right up your alley.

More on a budget, my MTM might be a place to start your DIY dabbling(s).

If you have the space, or the inclination, Jed's projects, the Khanspire, or even the Statements, are worth consideration (I think the sound of the Statements will be much more of a departure from the Klipsch)

Performance on my budget numbers has pushed up to some $1k/pr commercial speakers, and Zaph's work is absolutely superb.

C

[ClintonH]

Thanks for that those ZDT3.5's look nice but I'm not sure for my first project. I've done lots of DIY, just never any Audio related stuff besides the normal sub boxes and kick panels in the upteen cars I've owned. I'm a bodyman by trade so should be able do the building just not sure on the electronics. Where would I find info on your design or the others you mention? Would they be in the mission accomplished section? My amp seems to have not bad power, 90watts @ 7 channels just thought that would have something to do with the type of sound the Klipsch speakers have. So I wouldn't need to stay with the horn drivers for that type of sound either? Again thanks for the reply.

Clinton

[cjd]

My MTM has a pile of variations. http://www.eldamar.net/audio/rs150MTM - also a discussion on it in the Missions Accomplished section.

unless you watch movies at 110dB+ 90W + 90dB sensitive speaker is fine.

Crossover assembly is easy - if you're unsure, twist together, snap a pic, post it up and have us pore over the details to see if you went wrong. The woodworking is definitely more troublesome in most cases. Regardless, we hang out here in part to support all these great DIY designs (we'll help with our own OR not our own...)

C

[bluewizard]

Not much I can really add other than if you want Big Sound, you've got to move Big Air, and to move Big Air, you've got to have Big Speakers. Though, reasonably, not gigantic speakers.

In your case, and considering your room, I think a proven MTM (meaning MidBass, Tweeter, MidBass) would serve you well. They are not pixie speakers but again the are not oppressively huge either. You could build three for left/right front, and center. These would not strain your bugdet or your skill level.

One small problem I have with the speakers though, and it is more of a person problem than a technical one; I don't like rear ports. If your room allows for placement of the speakers at least a meter or so from the back wall, then no problem. But much less than that, and I think the midrange becomes muddy.

You could tweak the dimension slightly, as long as you keep the width (front) the same, and move the ports to the front. Just my opinion of course.

Still, if the speaker normally sit forward of the back wall, then no problem.

The Zaph 3.5 is one hottest speakers around right now. The forums are filled with beautifully construct versions of it, all with outstanding results when the directions are followed properly. It is a bigger speaker and a larger project, but I think others will agree that the results are stunning.

Still, in a more reasonable budget, at a more reasonable skill level, any of the many proven MTM design will get the job done nicely. You may, if you choose, even be able to get ready-made cabinets. A lot of these speakers will fit nicely in a Dayton 1 cubic foot cabinet.

Also, note that many of the MTM designs have plans for both bookshelf and tower versions. Even the one linked to by CJD has a tower version. You could consider all bookshelf in your front three, or two towers and a bookshelf (for the center).

Steve/bluewizard

[wmilas]

Sensitivity, if those're real numbers, is going to be really tough to find in the DIY world. 88-90dB tends to be high sensitivity offerings around here. Unless you have a very low wattage amp though, that's still very very good, so i would not recommend you consider sensitivity to be a show-stopper.
C

I'm mostly a lurker but I wanted to chime in that those sensitivity numbers are correct. I've owned many Klipsch speakers over the years, from Fortes's to Chorus II's, to Khorns, to the new Refrerence Series. Klipsch have some weird coloring, and some very real drawbacks, but sensitivity is one of the positives. Any horn design is going to be efficient.

That being said, I currently don't own any Klipchs. Its a love hate relationship I have with the darn things

[ClintonH]

Ok after reading through the linked page and a few threads on the ZDT3.5's I think I'll try to build a set of towers plus bookshelf center. Just a few more ?? though. I'm from Canada so I have to order all this at once if I can to be sure and save on multiple shipping costs.

1. Can they be built in any shape/form as long as the volume stays the same?
2. Would I be ble to still use my QuntetIII's as the rear 4 speakers for a 7.1 setup?
3. I only really have about 18" behind the screen wall where the front stage sits, is this a bad configuration or can it be worked around?

Again thanks to all for the great info.

Clinton

[ThomasW]

Just double checking you're using an AT screen?

[ClintonH]

AT screen? Not sure what that is actually. I built the front wall(shadowbox) and screen, the screen is 110" stretched black out cloth.

Clinton

[Hdale85]

The black out cloth is blocking a lot of the sound. An AT screen is an audio transparent screen. It has tons of tiny little holes so that it blocks a lot less sound.

[ThomasW]

AT= acoustically transparent

Used when it's necessary to place the speakers behind the screen.

[ClintonH]

The center and fronts are on the sides and top, with acoustically transparent cloth grills over the whole section.

Clinton

[ThomasW]

Oh okay I didn't think my vision was that bad ..

Since the room is only 11' wide you might consider running without a center channel...or at least trying phantom mode before building a center.

If you built a new center do you plan on placing it near the ceiling?

If you're using bigger speakers and they're are placed close proximity to the sidewalls consideration must be made for this in the design. (reason being the midbass/bass frequencies will be 'amplified' by the corner loading.)

[bluewizard]

ThomasW,

About the speakers being near the walls. Considering he has a subwoofer, is that so much a consideration? And can't it be compensated in other ways, like simply turning the Bass knob down a notch or two, or tweaking the multi-band equalizer? Or perhaps building some simple bass traps for the sides of the room near the main speakers?

I'm not sure how big a fan I am of striving to perfectly compensate a speaker to match a room. If you are striving for perfection, then maybe. But once that is done, it seems that room and speaker are now irrevocably tied together. Move to a new room or even re-arrange the room, and you've amplified problems that didn't exist before.

Regarding the Center, just my opinion, but I think just below the screen pointed up at the listeners would be better than above the screen pointed down. Though, if you intend to add a second row of seating, then, in that case, above pointing down might be better as the sound won't be blocked by the first row. ....sorry, just rambling.

steve/bluewizard

[cjd]

Ok after reading through the linked page and a few threads on the ZDT3.5's I think I'll try to build a set of towers plus bookshelf center. Just a few more ?? though. I'm from Canada so I have to order all this at once if I can to be sure and save on multiple shipping costs.

1. Can they be built in any shape/form as long as the volume stays the same?
2. Would I be ble to still use my QuntetIII's as the rear 4 speakers for a 7.1 setup?
3. I only really have about 18" behind the screen wall where the front stage sits, is this a bad configuration or can it be worked around?

Again thanks to all for the great info.

Clinton

Consider Solen for crossover parts, may save you some. At least compare.

1: no. Baffle width and driver layout are very important for best results. Height is very slightly more flexible.
2. Sure. You won't get voice-matching all around, but that's OK - definitely reasonable to start that way.
3. Hmm. That's PERFECT for the Khanspires space-wise. ~$650-700 for a pair. Zaph probably talks about placement concerns for his designs, he usually does. I don't know if that would result in them being too close or not

Consider going with three matching tower speakers and switching to SeymourAV Acoustically transparent screen material (sold to the DIY screen builder straight-up). I use this in my HT - awesome picture quality, and no more issues than grill cloth as far as actual acoustic transparency.

C

[ThomasW]

ThomasW,

About the speakers being near the walls. Considering he has a subwoofer, is that so much a consideration? And can't it be compensated in other ways, like simply turning the Bass knob down a notch or two, or tweaking the multi-band equalizer?

I'm referring designs that have baffle step compensation in the crossovers. Putting them in or very near a corner can create a muddy/chesty sound.

[looneybomber]

I have been out the last few days demoing quit a few sets of speakers with the wife and we both agree for use that the Klipsch is the kind of sound we like.

I was auditioning a Fountek Neopro5i for a couple hours yesterday. (Auditioning tweeters - A/B'ing them - is brutal on the ears BTW)
I can hear some similarities between it and the stereotypical horn sound I am used to - more so than my seas domes or my paper cone tweeters. Though the only way to be for sure it to A/B the Klipsch's with the speakers I am building.

Maybe look into a build using ribbon tweeters as opposed to domes?

[looneybomber]

unless you watch movies at 110dB+ 90W + 90dB sensitive speaker is fine.

But if you sit 3-4M away, you can subtract 9-12 db off that number. Now the 88db designs are putting out ~95-98db at the listening position at max output. While that's not bad, it's certainly not loud.

[orlofstg]

HT Options

Not to poopoo the Zaph 3.5's but if you are just getting into the DIY thing I would seriously consider a set of high quality MT's. I built the SR-71 for my 3 fronts ($180/speaker) and they sound great with a 15" sub. I had a 10" Infinity sub that I upgraded with a Rythmik 15"/370w. I was confused about what bass in a HT was when I was running the 10". Boom does not = bass. Full range speakers are great for music but for HT get a big sub. The small 2 ways have plenty of juice above 100 hz. I would not sweat not having eff the same as your rear surrounds. They really don't do much anyway for HT. 3 perfectly matches fronts are essential.

Skip the mass market crap, do the DIY, and don't look back. Parts Express, & Madisound are great outfits to do business with.

Good luck with the upgrade. :T

[cjd]

But if you sit 3-4M away, you can subtract 9-12 db off that number. Now the 88db designs are putting out ~95-98db at the listening position at max output. While that's not bad, it's certainly not loud.

Per speaker...

The 110dB is measured in-room performance in my HT which is about 89dB (I've pushed to 114dB but was picking up clear distortion in the woofers at that point). I was wearing ear protection - no WAY I could handle that for any length of time. We usually watch movies in the ~75-80dB range... If it's just me, I *might* push it up a bit but top out about 90. That's ~20dB headroom at my cap...

A realistic understanding of what output levels you'll be using can be valuable. Good quality speakers can actually reduce required level - a lot of folks CRANK the sound in an attempt to make it so they can understand speech. Not at all necessary when speakers are done right.

Some people DO want super high output levels. Zaph's, probably won't hit that. Khanspires will get closer. I think you'll hit the thermal limits on the tweeter in the Khan before anything else.

A 95dB+ design would be good though. Pondering that, and have been for a while actually. The problem is woofers, not tweeters.

C

C

[ClintonH]

Thank you all for the great input and time you've spent helping me. I've come to the conclusion that the DIY is just not going to work for me based on the sound I'm looking for and the cost is very close if not more after factoring in time. I know with the DIY design's your supposed to have a better sound and better quality speakers but that I'm guessing would also change the sound to something different than I'm looking for. Just to be sure the Klipsch is the sound I'm looking for I picked up a set of Energy C-500 and C-C100 center as well as a set of RTi8 and CSi3 center and auditioned them along side the Klipsch RF-62 and RC-62 center. To me the sound was very different between all the speakers, I picked up the Energy and Polk to have feel for what the soft dome and Aluminium dome tweeters sound like rather than the horns. They just sounded dull and laid back compared to the Klipsch. The wife agreed and to that also agreed we should spend the $$ on the real deal and not mess around with something that we have never heard and may or may not sound the way we would like. Again sorry for wasting your guys time but I thought I'd explore other options before spending $1300 on my first real set of speakers. Thanks.

Clinton

[cjd]

NP. It's very labor intensive - I have parts for sooo many projects, and time is worth something.

The Klipsch stuff is no slouch, and you'll enjoy it.

Keep your eye out for a DIY event in your neighborhood, check out what it's about some time.

C

[yousuredo2]

Yeah, its all good that DIY wasn't the solution for you this time...
But who knows it may be later on, so stick around and enjoy what other here do from time to time.

For me, Allot of the payoff is to know I did it myrself

as you can see from my signature, I have some Polk stuff that I truly love and have yet to replace...

Good luck
chris

[ClintonH]

Thanks again, I'm glad you guys are so helpful and supportive over here this board is great. I made a deal on the Klipsch today, full set of 5.1 came out to $1800. Figured it was just a few weekend of work anyway and no time involved. But I'm already thinking maybe a DIY sub is in order after this stuff is paid for. I can take my time on that since I have a sub I can live with for now. Thanks again guys , I'll be back with more questions soon enough.

Clinton

[Dean100]

Yeah a DIY Sub is a great place to start. In fact, I bet many people here started with a Sub and got the bug to do more. I know I did.

Once you get the DIY bug, its hard to stop. :B

[---k---]

Subs are also the biggest bang for the buck. Shipping and stocking those big heavy boxes is expensive. So, you can really save money if you can build your own. Also, we can build them much bigger and therefore get a lot more performance out of the drivers.

Good luck. Enjoy your system. We'll be here for you when you want a sub.

[ClintonH]

Sorry to bother again so soon. I was cleaning up my garage (moved in just last month) and found a set of subs that came out of a car I bought a few years ago. Pretty sure they wont be of use to me in the house but thought I'd ask before I throw them out. Here's a Link to the specs on them if anyone could tell me if they are any good at all that would be great. I know they are of high impedance but if they were any good at all I could wire them in series to get an 8 ohm load correct? Thanks again.

Clinton

[ThomasW]

Given the specs (Fs 33Hz, Xmax 9mm), for home audio use they're really woofers not subwoofers. But a pair used together would make a modest sub for home use

Yes wired in series 2 drivers make a 4ohm load

[ClintonH]

Thanks for the quick reply, I'm guessing you meant to say 8ohm? Would it be worth the trouble over what I have? Klipsch RPW-10 I'm guessing no. I'll cruise around the forum and read some more on the sub builds, thanks.

Clinton

[ThomasW]

Oops yes 8 ohm.

Due to their ability to move more air, yes a pair of 12"s will certainly play louder/lower than the 10" Klipsch.

[kevinp.]

most sub amps are designed for a 4 ohm load. I'd seriously consider an inexpensive stereo amp like the Behringer A500 and wiring each driver seperately; even better if in 2 seperate enclosures.

[Johnloudb]

I like two subs myself. Some people (JL Audio for one) say subs are better in stereo. Having two subs can also help cancel room modes when positioned properly. So, if it appeals to you, that would be the way to go IMO.

[ClintonH]

most sub amps are designed for a 4 ohm load. I'd seriously consider an inexpensive stereo amp like the Behringer A500 and wiring each driver seperately; even better if in 2 seperate enclosures.

Ok that sounds like a good plan, even found one at a dealer about 15min's form here for $220 brand new . Any advise or anything I need to know before I use this? Can I just run the sub out of my Denon into each input on the A500 and adjust the level on with the Denon with the rest of my speakers? It's a Denon AVR-788 Incase you need the specs etc. I'll make two boxes this weekend and run them seperate, just need to find if sealed or ported is the way to go. Thanks again for all your guys help.

Clinton

[ThomasW]

Can I just run the sub out of my Denon into each input on the A500 and adjust the level on with the Denon with the rest of my speakers?

Yep that's it.

I'll make two boxes this weekend and run them seperate, just need to find if sealed or ported is the way to go.

Ported is the way to go for those drivers.

Might consider putting both drivers in one box. When drivers share a box they tend to operate slightly better since they "see" a larger volume. The choice is whether you want to move around one heavier box vs two less heavy ones...

[ClintonH]

Thanks again Thomas. Played with a box design program last night for awhile, the best I could come up with is a box volume of 2 cu/ft per woofer tuned to 28hz with 2 ports 3.25" diam by 11.34" long. This gave me a fairly flat curve with fairly good low output I think. This is of course my first time trying this out so I might be way off. Here are the driver specs I used, entered into WinISD. If anyone could let me know if I'm way off or if this looks ok. Thanks.

Specs (copied and pasted straight from the pioneer PDF)
Nom. Dia.(In) 12
Qts 0.340
Qms 15.095
Qes 0.348
Fs[Hz] 32.7
Vas[l] 51.45
Vas[ft3] 1.817
Sd[m2] 4.60E-02
Sd[ft2] 0.495
Revc[ohm] 3.0
Levc[mH]at 2000Hz 2.107
Xmax[mm] 9.2
Xmax[In] 0.36
Zmax[ohm] 139.18
Bl[Tm] 15.988
Rms[Ns/m] 1.875
Mms[g] 138.20
Cms[m/N] 1.717E-04
Mg.Wt.[g] 2350
Flux Density [Gauss] 6500
Hag[mm] 10
Hag[In] 0.394
Hvc[mm] 28
Hvc[In] 1.102
VC.Diameter[mm] 55
Eff[%] 0.50
S.P.L.[dB] 89
R.M.S.Power[W] 400
M.M.P.[W] 800
Sp. Displacement[l] 2.36
Sp. Displacement[ft3] 0.083
Recom. Enclosure[l] 42.5
Recom. Enclosure[ft3] 1.5
F0(in Cabinet) 48.6
Q0(in Cabinet) 0.506

Clinton

[ClintonH]

Anyone have an idea if I'm in the ballpark? I have the amp bought and the wood etc to build just need an opinion if the size looks good. Thanks.

Clinton

[ThomasW]

That tuning would be fine for car use but it's way to high a tuning for HT.

Use an Fb around 18Hz for an HT sub

[ClintonH]

Ok thanks, makes for one huge box. Looks like 8 cubic feet to get it looking good at all. h:

Clinton

[---k---]

8 cu ft??? That all? My sub is like 14 cu ft.

[ThomasW]

Ok thanks, makes for one huge box. Looks like 8 cubic feet to get it looking good at all.

Yep that's not surprising.

Here's the thing, if a ported sub plays frequencies lower than the port tuning, the driver does what's called 'unloading'. This is usually fatal to the driver.

Movie soundtracks typically have a ton of special effect sounds in the 20Hz or lower region. This is why I suggested a 18Hz tuning.

The other option is to buy a device with a filter to remove the really low stuff, this will protect the drivers from those frequencies.

One such device is the $100 eD EQ2

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_123&products_id=657

[djg]

Thomas W, or anyone kind enough to reply, what measuring equipment would I need to properly set up my subwoofer using the eq2 mentioned above? I built a nice horn loaded sub with plenty of power and low freq extension, but just by ear, I know it has some response problems. I have no measuring equipment.

Thanks.

[ThomasW]

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw-2/SubwooferSetupandEQpage10.html

[djg]

Thank you, Thomas W.

[ClintonH]

Got the boxes all built and installed running off the Behringer A500 last night. Ended up building 2 boxes 4 cu/ft each tuned to 20hz. They sound very low in volume compared to the 10" Klipsch I was running. They move alot of air at low bass scenes but not very loud in volume. I've turned the gains all the way up on the A500 and the gain to +12 on the Denon AVR-888 but It didn't help much just kind of low on the bottom compared to the front stage etc. I read on here that the A500 needs a voltage of at least 1.3 but can't find that spec on Denons site or anywhere for that matter. Would I need an additional preamp or something along those lines to properly drive the A500? Thanks again for any help.

Clinton

[---k---]

No, the A500 is designed to work with standard consumer grade equipment. I used the A500 with a cheap Pioneer receiver to power two front speakers, no problem. You're using the RCA jacks, right?

I probably would have used a bigger amp than the A500. It isn't the strongest amp out there. But, I don't think that is your problem. Not sure. You should post the unibox model or winisd model you used to size the box and ports.