DIY vs Klipsch

[INFURNO]

I really enjoy DIY projects and I'm pretty handy with everything from a drill press to a soldering iron. I'm fascinated with this DIY speakers scene. Browsing forums, doing a lot of reading on a number of subjects I'm not very familiar with, and really interested in getting a project going.

My source of my interest in DIY is really in spending the least amount of money while outperforming something that costs far more. This is what I find most challenging and exciting and is my justification for getting my hands dirty. I mean if I can spend less on a commercial product and get better value, then DIY is just not as much fun anymore. Anybody can stick a driver in a box and call it a speaker, the fun part is exceeding the standards. At least, that's how I see it.

So here is my position: I'm moving into my new office. It's ~13 feet long and ~10 feet across. On one side is a projector screen and my workstation in between that and the door out. Not big, just a place for me to work at home.

Last month I purchased 2x Klipsch F-1 speakers and a Denon AVR-1610 receiver. This week I'm going to spend ~$600 and pick up 3 more F-1 ($150) speakers [rears & center] and a ($99) Sony subwoofer. This should be "good enough", especially for such a small room...

Here are the specs: http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/product...pecifications/

Is it feasible to beat the Klipsch F-1 speakers with a hardware budget of $150 (less is better) for each speaker?

If so, is there a project someone could recommend for me out of the "Missions Accomplished!" section? There are so many to choose from, I think it's best I ask for a recommendation as my first speaker project before spending money.

Finally.. One of my concerns is that since I already have two Klipsch speakers, my research tells me that I should stick to the same brand and series... Which may compromise plans to do the rest as DIY...

[krips]

Do you already have access to a router and table saw?

[kujomujo]

Well, you've certainly picked a high end speaker to try to compete with. I guess anything is possible.

You mentioned your research regarding all your speakers being the same brand. This is called "timbre matching" or "timbre truthfulness"... all speakers essentially giving the perceived type of sound. I guess if timbre matching is important to you, then I'm not sure how you're gonna accomplish that with a DIY project.

Good luck!

KM

https://www.myhometheatersecrets.com

[INFURNO]

Do you already have access to a router and table saw?

Have both. I have access to nearly everything within reason and if I need some tool I don't generally count it as part of the cost of a DIY project.

I'm most interested in the cost of hardware like drivers, ports, dampers, and crossover.

...I guess if timbre matching is important to you, then I'm not sure how you're gonna accomplish that with a DIY project.

I'm not really sure how much I should care about timbre truthfulness. I'm getting mixed signals, it seems like people end up combining systems as upgrades. I suppose maybe it's more forgiving as long as you mismatch in pairs.

[INFURNO]

Looking over numbers and frequency response graphs the Hi-Vi M8a looks very promising.

I think I can fit 2x M8a ($56), a tweeter, and crossovers in the ~$150/speaker budget and knock the F-1 out? May have to go a bit over budget for crossovers.

Looks like there are a few builds based on them here. I'll try and source all the parts tomorrow.

[---k---]

Yes and no.

It is really hard to do a lot with $150. I'm really happy with the speakers CJD and I are finishing up for my brother. I called it the Sietecerocero Project. It was an $700 budget for a full 5.1 system. The final actually came in around $800. I find them really impressive for the price.

But, they will be different than your Klipsch. As you probably heard while shopping for speakers, every brand sounds different. Most of the DIY are designed for detail, clarity, and accuracy. Many people that aren't big music people can be disappointed because the DIY doesn't have the boomy inaccurate bass that they are used to. Or they don't have that sizzle in the tweeter. Everything is different.

One thing, a $99 subwoofer is, well, not really a subwoofer. It might go whoop whoop. But, it isn't going to be quality bass and it isn't going to dig down deep and shake the room. I often get a real kick out of people who think their commercial subs are good, then hear mine. They are shocked, amazed, and stupefied.

I usually don't recommend DIY speakers just to save money. It is a hobby. Hobbies always cost money over time.

[Undefinition]

Looking over numbers and frequency response graphs the Hi-Vi M8a looks very promising.

I think I can fit 2x M8a ($56), a tweeter, and crossovers in the ~$150/speaker budget and knock the F-1 out? May have to go a bit over budget for crossovers.

Looks like there are a few builds based on them here. I'll try and source all the parts tomorrow.

Hang on. Read this:

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-mfaq

And sure, for $150 per speaker, you can definitely beat something like that Klipsch (although their sensitivity ratings always seem unrealistically high) ...with a proven design.

[cjd]

Here's the thing.

DIY can only be so price-competitive in its lower budget range - that's not to say it isn't - it can be incredibly so. But it's harder, because we very quickly come up against economies of scale in the commercial world.

It also tends to be the budget range where nice flat response and all the things DIY strives for fail to meet expectations more often than any other price range - most commercial stuff in this range is built hot on the top end, soft in the middle - it's the most immediately attractive sound possible.

Can it be done? Absolutely. DIY speakers around the $150 (each) price-point can compete well with commercial stuff 2 to 3 times the price - though sometimes only because the commercial frequency response is so far off flat (despite what manufacturers claim about response). They won't always be preferred.

I will agree with Ryan, a $99 commercial sub isn't worth it. Though I don't know what's out there for around $100, you definitely get more for your money in the sub world when you DIY.

[ThomasW]

Is it feasible to beat the Klipsch F-1 speakers with a hardware budget of $150 (less is better) for each speaker?

Nope..

If you like the Klipsch 'sound' buy Klipsch speakers

[Paul W]

Ignoring all other facets of DIY (satisfaction etc) and focusing only on cost...

At the bottom end of the performance scale, you will save nothing. At the higher end of the scale, you can save thousands. Mega-buck equivalent speakers can be built for a fraction of retail.

Development and operational business costs for mass-market speakers are spread over tens of thousands of units, plus there is an incredible procurement advantage in mass-market OEM volumes. The costs of running a high-end business must be recouped over very few units.

[INFURNO]

In my old office I had a $70 5.1 speaker kit which served as the basic computer sound output. The best audio system I have experience with is probably the Harman Kardon in my car.

I came in to the store with a movie soundtrack at hand and told the rep I have a budget of about $1000, show me what you can do. The first thing they did is sit me down with some $600 satellite speaker kit and a receiver all together just in range. To be honest I instantly thought it sounded like crap. Sure the sound was there but it just felt wrong. I'm guessing it's because satellites are designed to be heard, not seen.

We moved on to the F-1 and I could instantly tell the difference. Everything sounded a lot better. It felt much more real, was like night and day. I could get better sound with just two of these than 6 of the satellites.

Next we moved to the... it was the RF-52 or RF-62. I can't tell now, they look and price similar. It was a better (and much more expensive) speaker, but I'm not sure how much more I liked it. It had a lot more treble and the soundtrack sounded very different. Unlike anything else I have heard.

If nothing else, I can tell between what I like and what I don't like. However, my objective is pretty simple: My goal is to most accurately reproduce audio the way the artists intended for it to be heard. What I like / don't is not really part of the equation. I want the experience to be faithful to the vision.

Based on what I'm reading that may be impossible because of the variations in speakers... However, I think it's reasonable to expect accurate reproduction of sound from musical instruments.

I'm not sure how much I can recognize the "sound" of an F-1 but my favorite thing about them is that often they will produce a sound that startles me. It sounds so real that I'm certain it just came from beside me. I want more of this in a wider frequency range.

[ThomasW]

Klipsch have a very characteristic sound (sonic signature). If that's what you like, and what you want, buy the F-1s for $150. Reason being you maybe able to replicate the sound of the Klipsch with a DIY speaker, it's all but impossible to replicate the fit-n-finish of a factory assembled speaker for $150

[Saurav]

To add to what Thomas said, I don't think you can build a speaker with a conventional dome tweeter and have it sound the same as a speaker with a horn tweeter. You may end up liking the dome tweeter more, or you may not, and you can certainly argue that a good design is more accurate regardless of what kind of tweeter is used. But don't expect that you can just assemble anything and 'blow away' the Klipsch. It will sound different. And it's impossible to say whether you'll like it or not.

There are multiple designs available that use horn tweeters, and those would give you similar sound, especially the crispness in the treble which is what I think you're describing. In addition, you'll get something that's probably more accurate, probably lower distortion... overall, probably a better speaker than the Klipsch, but designed along similar lines. But AFAIK these cost more than $150/pr.

Look up 'econo wave' on this forum, and you should find links that lead you to the main discussions on other forums.

[cjd]

If nothing else, I can tell between what I like and what I don't like. However, my objective is pretty simple: My goal is to most accurately reproduce audio the way the artists intended for it to be heard. What I like / don't is not really part of the equation. I want the experience to be faithful to the vision.

Based on what I'm reading that may be impossible because of the variations in speakers... However, I think it's reasonable to expect accurate reproduction of sound from musical instruments.

I'm not sure how much I can recognize the "sound" of an F-1 but my favorite thing about them is that often they will produce a sound that startles me. It sounds so real that I'm certain it just came from beside me. I want more of this in a wider frequency range.

Here's the rub.

Accurate reproduction is what most DIY is about. I can't find any actual measurement data for these Klipsch so can only speak based on past experience with both the brand and similar models in the marketplace, but accurate usually is not a word I would use.

In other words, if you really dig the sound of the F-1 and it sounds exactly right to you, it is odds-on that nothing DIY will sound right to you.

You don't mention anything about the TYPE of music you listen to, but this also can play a huge role in what sounds right. What sounds accurate to me (34+ years with live acoustic sound) may not be what sounds accurate to you.

C

[cobblepots]

With regards to the subwoofer...

If $100 subwoofer is what you plan on spending on a subwoofer you may want to check out the Cerberus.

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Cerberus/cerberus.html

While not a true subwoofer, it is plenty for a small office. I plan on making this "sub" woofer to match my Overnight Sensations that I'm currently designing an enclosure for. This subwoofer is flat to 35 Hz and for around $100 should blow the pants off that Sony... My father had a cheap sony subwoofer and it was made from 1/2" partical board... Not the greatest example of quality.

At nearly %50 percent of MSRP those F-1's are going to be very hard to beat for $150 a pair especially when considering the added cost of binding posts, paint, veneer, speaker spikes, mounting hardware, etc.

[Face]

If nothing else, I can tell between what I like and what I don't like. However, my objective is pretty simple: My goal is to most accurately reproduce audio the way the artists intended for it to be heard. What I like / don't is not really part of the equation. I want the experience to be faithful to the vision.

Then you should forget about Klipsch.

IMO, Klipsch's house sound gets old (and painful) quick, especially while listening to music.

[kendomusic]

I had the SF-3, the bigger brother of the F1's. They worked fine with movies but gives you a headache during long periods of listening to music. I replaced them with the WF-35, excellent for music and HT but cost $1500 a pair.

For $150 DIY, I built the Zaph ZMV5.

[---k---]

Yep. Yep. Yep.

What a bunch of downers we are! Here is the frequency response of a Klipsch RB-15:

http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/204klipsch/index3.html

Not the same speaker. A $299/pr bookshelf from their reference line. But you can start to see some of the differences in our styles versus Klipsch if you know what you're looking at. Like everyone says, if you like Klipsch, buy Klipsch.

Also, I don't believe that your receiver is rated for 4 ohm loads. So your choices of DIY projects maybe more limited if you want to stay within the published limits of your receiver.

[INFURNO]

Never expected to get such a good response concerning my question. This has given me a lot to think about, maybe a diy subwoofer is a better project to get started with.

My (probably misguided) reasoning behind $100 for a subwoofer was that there's not much to hear down there in a movie anyway. The F-1 bottoms out at 38hz. From what I read below 35hz is more consistent with something you feel rather than hear so sound quality was not something I was really worried about. On the other hand, the F-1 probably starts to fall apart that low and something to reinforce the bass would improve everything.

Maybe I should stop by the audio place and ask them to turn everything but the subwoofers off. I don't mind spending more, as long as I can justify it.

The response curve for the Hi-Vi M8a


Flat to ~1k. Add a crossover and tweeter to flat out the rest. Maybe I'll just try this for fun and see what comes out.

[cjd]

My (probably misguided) reasoning behind $100 for a subwoofer was that there's not much to hear down there in a movie anyway.

That's just what they tell you to sell $100 "subwoofers"

I recently have been playing with the Ansonica in the same room as the MTM's I designed ages ago AND the Sietecerocero MTM's (well, they're now out of my room - definitely something to look at as a starter DIY even if you just want to try it for fun). One huge difference: the MTM's are ported to ~38Hz (they were at one time inside your budget, but prices of copper and all that... no longer would qualify for the budget category they won back when...) and the Ansonica is ported to ~23Hz.

I can step into my basement and go even lower...

I can clearly hear into the low 20's - below that my room starts to make enough noise here and there it's hard to know what I'm hearing.

The impact of music with low frequency output is very different when it's there - organ music, symphonies... that's my test material - most larger organs go to 16Hz, the one in Sydney goes to 8Hz...

And then there's the value of feeling stuff. I watched, among other things, the entire LOTR (EE) trilogy this weekend. Let me tell you, being able to FEEL the horses pounding by, the hits of rocks as they shake the ground (er, ok, just my couch) are HUGE on how much you feel IN the story vs looking through a little window. And that movie KNOWS how to work a sub (and a surround setup)

[cjd]

Flat to ~1k. Add a crossover and tweeter to flat out the rest. Maybe I'll just try this for fun and see what comes out.

Go look at Jon's crossovers using this driver.

Please, do yourself a favor. Don't just "add a crossover and tweeter". It doesn't work nearly that simply. That breakup peak at 2k needs to be 20dB down (or better... I'd shoot for -40dB) which means you need a -48dB/octave crossover slope to control it properly, give or take. And that takes a helluva tweeter. There are 8" 2-ways on this site and elsewhere (as I said, Jon has a very respected 2-way using that driver)

[Hugo82]

I often get a real kick out of people who think their commercial subs are good, then hear mine. They are shocked, amazed, and stupefied.

It's a whee bit offtopic but what subwoofers do you have if i may ask ?

[fjhuerta]

It's a whee bit offtopic but what subwoofers do you have if i may ask ?

Check out his profile pic... I have no reason to doubt his claims. :T

[---k---]

I have two Soundsplinter RL-P15's in a ported sub tuned to 15 hz. It takes all movies to a different level. My wife didn't see the point of a sub. But, even watching a movie like Pixar's Cars. When the cars go around the track, you hear and feel the low level rumble. Watching the Blue Man Group "Audio" dvd, it sounds better than the live Chicago performance. My sub is clean and articulate. Things that are intended to go bang go bang and not whoop.

I recommend that you see if you can attend one of the many DIY gatherings, such as Iowa, Indiana (missed), Dayton, KY, Atlanta (missed), Puget Sound, NorCal (missed) or and listen. Or add your location to your profile and seek out people whose systems you can listen to. We're all nice people and often let people come over and listen.

[mtmpenn]

--K-- for scale, could you explain how big your subwoofer is, roughly? I'd guess by the look of it 4' x 1.5' ??

Mike

[---k---]

It is 24"W x 44'"H x 34"D or around 450L. You can read more here: http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22453

[Undefinition]

The response curve for the Hi-Vi M8a


Flat to ~1k. Add a crossover and tweeter to flat out the rest. Maybe I'll just try this for fun and see what comes out.

With a stock XO, it's going to sound barky and obnoxious, and also have a LOT of extra sibilance (that's what happens with breakup peaks that aren't squashed 50+ dB.)

Have you looked at the Amiga or TRS-80 ? I think that may actually get you the sort of "big 2-way" sound you want, but with more refinement in the crossover than the Klipsch.

[Operandi]

I think if you value accuracy you'll enjoy most of the DIY designs a lot more than the Klipsch. Right now I'm running TriTrix MTs and I think they compete very favorably to more expensive commercial speakers that I've heard recently. Though I think a big portion of this has to do with crossover voicing and not necessarily higher quality components.

I have heard some higher DIY designs ($400+ drivers crossover) and those were significantly better sounding than any commercials speakers I've heard. This summer I plan to take the next step and build some towers that are a bit higher-end.

I would take a look at the TriTrix MT, the Noobsters (not sure they fit in your budget), and if you plan on running with a sub Paul's Overnight Sensations.