Help me Obi Wan, your my only hope with the RS52

[Spanky Ham]

Why is it that I can't get this Dayton RS52 midrange out of my head? :banghead: So far, I think Pete on the PE board is the only one to have a project completed with the driver. It looks like it will make an excellent midrange. Am I wrong in my thinking? Is anyone thinking of or planning on doing a project with this midrange? Any thoughts on what you might like to see it mated with? I see Pete used the Dayton Neo tweeter and the DA175s. I was thinking something along the lines of a RS180 or RS225 and the Neo for three front channels in HT setup.

Check out this thread for more info on a design with the RS52.

[Evil Twin]

Obi Wan was once the teacher, but now I am the master...

A center channel system design is in preparation, based on similar designs in the past with the MB Quart Titanium midrange, using the RS180's for midwoofers, and tweeter selection not yet finalized. Several possibilities are being considered, but as the Emperor has me very busy crushing rebellion in various galactic locations, this year, the work proceeds more slowly than preferred, as some things can't be left to duitful minions.

[Rudy Jakubin]

I was thinking something along the lines of a RS180 or RS225 and the Neo for three front channels in HT setup.

There is a project going on. I should be almost done in mid November. Next week I'll be ordering the RS52's and crossover parts and get my front baffle done as soon as I get the mid.

As for the center channel you'd have to get a hold of Pete. ;x(

OK . . . Quad RS180 RS52 ND20-6

88dB sensitivity vs. 85dB

For the RS180:

4.5mH, 65uF, 1.5mH and 15uF. A 4th order filter.

For the RS52:

Change the 3.5 Ohm to 2.5 Ohm
Change the .5mH to .8mH
Change the .7mH to .5mH
Change the 10uF to 12uF
Add 25 Ohm across RS52 terminals

For the ND20:

Remove the 25 Ohm
Change 5 Ohm to 3 Ohm
Change 5.6uF to 4.7uF

[ThomasW]

Spanky,

You may want to hold tight until ET posts his design. I'm think you'll find it will have the same elegant crossover and speaker design characteristics that have become his trademark.

There won't be a 3-way dome mid based small main speaker design, since the cost/performance advantages just aren't there compared to the MTM designs. For those wanting the output of larger TMWW, MTMWW's, the designs in the 'Missions Accomplished' section are proven performers.

[cjd]

Well, I'm considering this mid for HT use as well as I have some pretty significant limits on cabinet width... that's down the road still, however.

Likely to be mated to the RS225.

C

[Spanky Ham]

Obi Wan was once the teacher, but now I am the master...

A center channel system design is in preparation, based on similar designs in the past with the MB Quart Titanium midrange, using the RS180's for midwoofers, and tweeter selection not yet finalized. Several possibilities are being considered, but as the Emperor has me very busy crushing rebellion in various galactic locations, this year, the work proceeds more slowly than preferred, as some things can't be left to duitful minions.

Only a master of evil!

Why are you going with the MB Quart?

Spanky,

You may want to hold tight until ET posts his design. I'm think you'll find it will have the same elegant crossover and speaker design characteristics that have become his trademark.

There won't be a 3-way dome mid based small main speaker design, since the cost/performance advantages just aren't there compared to the MTM designs. For those wanting the output of larger TMWW, MTMWW's, the designs in the 'Missions Accomplished' section are proven performers.

Are you saying that a 3-way dome mid isn't that much better than a MTM? I guess what I am wondering is if a RS52/Neo (or another tweeter) is better than a Seas 27? If not, then I would just go with a Modula or Natalie. My thinking was something like Rick Craig's monitors. He uses the Morel and Fountek drivers. The RS52/Neo combo is around $40, which is much less than the Rick's combo. I like the fact that Rick's monitors are about MTM size, which is close to what I am looking for.

cjd,
The cabinet size is my big issue as well. I am planning on going with a 16x9 screen and placing my speakers below the screen leaving about 26" to the floor. I could do what Chas does, but I don't want my screen that far off the floor. I could go with the center Dayton TMWW, but three of those would be 72" wide with no gap. A RS225 mated with the RS52/Neo might be an interesting combo in sealed box and crossed at 80 or so.

[WillyD]

Only a master of evil!

Why are you going with the MB Quart?

I believe Evil Twin was simply suggesting that this new 3-way center using the RS52 will be similar in design to the ones he built in the past, that used the MB Quart Titanium Midrange. Don't worry, he wouldn't use an inferior midrange....

I can't wait for this design though.

[cjd]

A RS225 mated with the RS52/Neo might be an interesting combo in sealed box and crossed at 80 or so.

Ahh, you're height limited... whatever I work out for a CC may work out well for you then - it won't be WTMW, it'll be some vertical arrangement, though I'm not 100% on driver selection yet. Target sensitivity is right at the ~91dB the RS52 is listed as being, so I'm still a bit up in the air on woofer setup. Perhaps a single RS225-4 will do the trick, or perhaps a pair of RS180's and I'll cross to the sub at 80Hz.

Thing is, there are only a few zillion potential ways to go with this kind of thing.

[ThomasW]

Why are you going with the MB Quart?

If it's good enough for the $15,000 Avalon Acoustics design it's good enough for us.

Are you saying that a 3-way dome mid isn't that much better than a MTM?

Aaah no. I'm saying that using an MTM is a better choice than a small 3-way for mains, since one isn't doubling the cost/complexity of the crossover just to accommodate the dome mid.

I can't wait for this design though.

What's your time line?

[WillyD]

What's your time line?

Sorry, what I meant to say is, "I am really looking forward to this design." :T

I don't really have a time line.

The sooner the better but I can wait a while.

[technimac]

Thomas and ET,
This is good news... my Modula MT's thank you ;x( ;x( ;x(
and like WillyD :T :T :T I'm patient.
And to you and Jon, :^x ...
after all, it's October and well...



Cheers, Bruce

[Evil Twin]

Thomas and ET,
This is good news... my Modula MT's thank you ;x( ;x( ;x(
and like WillyD :T :T :T I'm patient.
And to you and Jon, :^x ...
after all, it's October and well...



Cheers, Bruce

A most pulchritudeness example of Bavarian Beer Wench (though they do call it something different in that part of the galaxy.)

Think Vifa D26NC55. A most promising candidate, considering size, FR, HD.

Images not available

[ColoradoTom]

Thomas and ET,
This is good news... my Modula MT's thank you ;x( ;x( ;x(
and like WillyD :T :T :T I'm patient.
And to you and Jon, :^x ...
after all, it's October and well...



Cheers, Bruce

Hey!! Is it me or does she look a lot like Sally Field's "Evil Twin" from her "Flying Nun" days???

ColoradoTom

[ColoradoTom]

Thomas and ET,
This is good news... my Modula MT's thank you ;x( ;x( ;x(
and like WillyD :T :T :T I'm patient.
And to you and Jon, :^x ...
after all, it's October and well...

Cheers, Bruce

Look... I'm not kidding.... Check it out!!!

ColoradoTom

[Rudy Jakubin]

A most pulchritudeness example of Bavarian Beer Wench (though they do call it something different in that part of the galaxy.

St. Pauleys Girl !!!!

Think Vifa D26NC55. A most promising candidate, considering size, FR, HD.

Have at it - I got a pair of these - But - they're 1" domes...

What would really go great with these RS52's is a 3/4" Neo without a flange!

[technimac]

I don't think she's the St. Pauli girl. Check the symbol on her ...err steins. I believe she's Der Hofbräu-Festzelt Fräulein...and where she works is....here:

http://www.hb-festzelt.de/en/festzelt.html

Here's the price of beer from their menu 1 maß (1 liter) HB Oktoberfestbeer: 7,40 €

Ouch!!

Sorry, back to speakers...

[Jim Holtz]

A most pulchritudeness example of Bavarian Beer Wench (though they do call it something different in that part of the galaxy.)

Think Vifa D26NC55. A most promising candidate, considering size, FR, HD.

Evil Twin,

I thought those were discontinued? The new Seas 27AFNC/G (H1397) 1" aluminum dome tweeter looks promising too.

Of course, one of those dreadful ribbons would also work quite nicely.

Jim

[Rudy Jakubin]

I don't think she's the St. Pauli girl. Check the symbol on her ...err steins. I believe she's Der Hofbräu-Festzelt Fräulein...and where she works is....here:

True, there is a beer brand called St. Paulie Girl. There is a story behind a St Paulie girl I was trying to sneak in. :evil:

[Rudy Jakubin]

[QUOTE=Jim Holtz]

A most pulchritudeness example of Bavarian Beer Wench (though they do call it something different in that part of the galaxy.)

Think Vifa D26NC55. A most promising candidate, considering size, FR, HD.

Evil Twin,

I thought those were discontinued? The new Seas 27AFNC/G (H1397) 1" aluminum dome tweeter looks promising too.

Of course, one of those dreadful ribbons would also work quite nicely.

Jim

Zaph didn't like those Seas Neos..

[Jim Holtz]

[QUOTE=Rudy Jakubin]

Zaph didn't like those Seas Neos..

Hi Rudy,

I didn't interpret his comments to be that he didn't like the tweeter. I read it to mean that it was a decent tweeter above 2K which is what I see looking at his tests.

I think the real point is, the Vifa D26NC55's are out of production per Ken Kantor so once what's on the dealers shelves is depleted, that's it. I've always thought designing a speaker using close out or out of production drivers was a heck of a lot of work that would be better directed using production drivers that will be around a while. My thoughts anyway. :W

The large faceplate on the RS52 limit your options. It either has to be a small faceplate tweeter or a ribbon. I'm debating on using the RS52 in my next 3-way but I can guarantee it'll use Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbons for tweets. I've not decided on a mid yet but the RS52 is in the running.

Every driver has trade offs so do I go for exceptional detail and dispersion (RS52) or greater dynamics with a 5"-7" cone? That is the question.

Jim

[Evil Twin]

[QUOTE=Jim Holtz]

Hi Rudy,

I didn't interpret his comments to be that he didn't like the tweeter. I read it to mean that it was a decent tweeter above 2K which is what I see looking at his tests.

I think the real point is, the Vifa D26NC55's are out of production per Ken Kantor so once what's on the dealers shelves is depleted, that's it. I've always thought designing a speaker using close out or out of production drivers was a heck of a lot of work that would be better directed using production drivers that will be around a while. My thoughts anyway. :W

The large faceplate on the RS52 limit your options. It either has to be a small faceplate tweeter or a ribbon. I'm debating on using the RS52 in my next 3-way but I can guarantee it'll use Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbons for tweets. I've not decided on a mid yet but the RS52 is in the running.

Every driver has trade offs so do I go for exceptional detail and dispersion (RS52) or greater dynamics with a 5"-7" cone? That is the question.

Jim

Ah yes, trade-offs are indeed the crux of the matter.

As are small format tweeters- show me a metal tweeter with a complicated phase diffusor, and I instinctively will use a Force push to rip it out of the system. Even my degraded prosthetic hearing doesn't tolerate the HF characteristics.

Those of us who collect legacy components (such as Focal tweeters, etc), think nothing of stockpiling a few inexpensive odds and ends. OTOH, if anyone knows of a comparable part with as low HD, especially high order, smooth frequency response, and clean CSD plot in that form factor, the Emperor would be most pleased to have this information.

This project is planned around keeping in the same MTM Dayton cabinet form factor as the earlier ones, so size is a serious factor.

[WillyD]

This project is planned around keeping in the same MTM Dayton cabinet form factor as the earlier ones, so size is a serious factor.

That is good news.

[technimac]

True, there is a beer brand called St. Paulie Girl. There is a story behind a St Paulie girl I was trying to sneak in. :evil:

Sorry Rudy, I mistakenly linked the Paulaner brand with the now enigmatic St. Paulie Girl. Good God, if it's good, sneak that story in!

Evil Twin, I'm a bit confused. Are you proposing the highly-rated D26NC55 for the WTMW? Or is it for the MTM center that Chris is working on?

About using "out of production" components. If there are enough of them out there (like the 600+ units of MB Quart 2" Titanium mids), then, why not? Building a "one-off" WTMW" center isn't the same as needing multiple units to do a 5.1 or 7.1 system.

Cheers, Bruce

[Jim Holtz]

[QUOTE=Evil Twin]

Ah yes, trade-offs are indeed the crux of the matter.


This project is planned around keeping in the same MTM Dayton cabinet form factor as the earlier ones, so size is a serious factor.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Evil Twins aversion to diffusers. So, cruising through Madisounds catalog of the new Peerless V-Line (Vifa) this one jumps out at me.

Vifa XT25SC50-04 Ring Radiator tweeter

This appears to be a lower cost small faceplate (2.6") version of the XT25 that Zaph tested. You guys are better at interpreting the distortion results than I but it seems to be very comparable to the D26NC55. Since the XT is a V-Line it should be around a while.

I'll bow out since my interest is in using the RS52's in mains with ribbons rather than as center so I'm really not adding any value to the discussion.

As always, thanks to Evil Twin and Jon for their hard efforts. Just as a side note, the Modula M/T and Natalie P. designs will be at the Iowa DIY Speaker Event this Saturday along with many other speakers. Fly in and join us.

Best regards,

Jim

[Jonasz]

I was also thinking about that small XT25. Perhaps another option could be the Neo3PDR wich also did very well in Zaph's tests? I use the B&G right now in my mains and I think they sound very detailed and airy with absolutely no sibilant behaviours.

Some comparisons...

27TBFCG



XT25SC



Neo3PDR



D26NC

[Spanky Ham]

As tech says, if there is enough of these D26s in stock then it shouldn't be an issue. In reality, how many people will actually build these? Hopefully in the next year there will be a great neo tweeter that will fullfill everyones wishes. Maybe we should make a list of the potential tweeters that would mate with the RS52:

Vifa D26NC55
Vifa XT25SC50
Dayton Neo
Seas 27AFNC
Neo 3PDR

The D26 still looks the best so far.

[cjd]

Actually, the Dayton ND20 tweeters test out fairly well on the distortion numbers above 3k. And at ~$4 each... crazy stuff. One other advantage is that they have a rear-mount version that would allow it to snug RIGHT up against the face-plate of the RS52 mid.

C

[Rudy Jakubin]

[QUOTE=Jim Holtz]

Hi Rudy,

The large faceplate on the RS52 limit your options. It either has to be a small faceplate tweeter or a ribbon. I'm debating on using the RS52 in my next 3-way but I can guarantee it'll use Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbons for tweets. I've not decided on a mid yet but the RS52 is in the running.

Jim

I got a pair of Fountek's. What did you have in mind for woofers??

[cobbpa]

Actually, the Dayton ND20 tweeters test out fairly well on the distortion numbers above 3k. And at ~$4 each... crazy stuff. One other advantage is that they have a rear-mount version that would allow it to snug RIGHT up against the face-plate of the RS52 mid.

C

This was something I thought of in class today and was going to suggest. So..good idea :T

Also, I thought the Hi-Vi TN25 sounded quite nice in a design Jim Griffin brought to the PE meet. I'm not sure where it was crossed, but I was definitely impressed by what it sounded like, especially for $8.28.. Any other opinions on it?

[Jim Holtz]

[QUOTE=Rudy Jakubin]

I got a pair of Fountek's. What did you have in mind for woofers??

(2)RS225's per cabinet. Great bass and a perfect match for the RS52! :T

Jim

[Jonasz]

[QUOTE=Jim Holtz]

(2)RS225's per cabinet. Great bass and a perfect match for the RS52! :T

Jim

This sounds like an nice well thought out system, care to make them dipole too? :B

[Spanky Ham]

Since the face plate is an issue, what about cutting it and removing half moon piece? You could then put the tweeter much closer to the midrange. By my calculations, the center of the RS52 and the center of say another nice looking tweeter Seas 22 TAF/G would only be 3.5 inches.

[Jim Holtz]

Since the face plate is an issue, what about cutting it and removing half moon piece? You could then put the tweeter much closer to the midrange. By my calculations, the center of the RS52 and the center of say another nice looking tweeter Seas 22 TAF/G would only be 3.5 inches.

Trimming is certainly an option, which I've done myself on various designs I've created, but Evil Twin wants to use the PE cabinets which are 9" wide I believe. That really limits the diameter of the tweeter because the RS52 is so darn big. Used in the mains as Jonaz, Rudy and I are discussing, and using a ribbon, spacing is the only concern. A ribbon emits sound from the full length so there really isn't a center per say, the spacing is much easier to accomodate.

If I remember correctly, Evil Twin wasn't crazy about the Seas 22 either.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

[QUOTE=Jonasz]

This sounds like an nice well thought out system, care to make them dipole too? :B

Thanks for the kind remark. The problem is, I have the idea but not a crossover designer that I can talk into creating it. I'm in no hurry. I'm on hiatus until I sell some of the speakers I've already built. It's difficult to justify building more speakers to the wife when I have 2 sets in the store room collecting dust, a pair in the living room and my 14 year old daughter has a pair in her room. That's not counting my linearrays in the home theater/listening room.

I have to sell before I build, I have to sell before I build. :W

Jim

[Landroval]

Also, I thought the Hi-Vi TN25 sounded quite nice in a design Jim Griffin brought to the PE meet. I'm not sure where it was crossed, but I was definitely impressed by what it sounded like, especially for $8.28.. Any other opinions on it?

Umm, that's a really good looking design.. I wonder if those are the 3" or 4" Auras?

[technimac]

A center channel system design is in preparation, based on similar designs in the past with the MB Quart Titanium midrange, using the RS180's for midwoofers, and tweeter selection not yet finalized. Several possibilities are being considered, but as the Emperor has me very busy crushing rebellion in various galactic locations, this year, the work proceeds more slowly than preferred, as some things can't be left to duitful minions.

Is Evil Twin using the RS52? :huh: This quote seems to suggest that he's thinking about using the 2" MB Quart Titanium midrange instead, which has almost the same dimensions as the RS52.

Attempting to keep the height to 9" does present some interesting challenges in choosing a tweeter and mid that'll stack within that height (actually about 7.5" on the baffle face).

Cheers, Bruce

[ThomasW]

Is Evil Twin using the RS52?

Yes.

[technimac]

Thanks

[Marzen]

I have a center tower using the RS225-YAG20-RS52-RS225. I want to upgrade the YAG20 now that I've developed a taste for that kind of tweeter. Perhaps the Neo3, as higher power ribbons are really pricey. Oh, these are crossed at 750-4000hz.
-Ward
(Dear Santa - please bring me 4 yds of A/T screen material)

[JonP]

Ah, so many things in this thread to address....

The Bier Wench brings a tear to my eye... was over there for Octoberfest on a Beer Tour of Europe.. (or at least 4 countries with 3 other beer aficianados) back in '01. Yes, they actually carry 8 of those liter beers in glasses that weigh a couple pounds empty... 7.40 Euro?!?! Heck, it was the equiv of $5USD back then!!! Gotta get back there and party with those who have had several centuries of practice...

The Sally Fields reference is just wrong on several levels..... going to take a while to get "Gidget" and the "Flying Nun" out of my head now.... (as well as "Bipolar Mom" of Nurse Abbey on ER)

I think the (other) Evil Twin should bend the Dark Side of the Force towards Ken and Tymphony, to keep the D26 in production. It's such a awesomely clean tweeter I canl't imagine why they're cutting it from the pack....

Many good suggestions for the RS52... I've been seeing much positive measurments, and a few great istening reports, etc.. can't wait for a really serious treatment with this driver. Sounds like we have several decent parings in the offing already.....

[capslock]

The RS52/Neo combo is around $40, which is much less than the Rick's combo.

Last time I looked, they were more like $80 for the combo. If you are talking about the Neo3, that is.

[capslock]

A center channel system design is in preparation, based on similar designs in the past with the MB Quart Titanium midrange, using the RS180's for midwoofers, and tweeter selection not yet finalized.

Which of the three would that be? The 95-6814 is the only one that appears to have a decent frequency response, but I don't like the low Q of the resonance -- reeks of thickish ferrofluid. Do you have distortion measurements?

Also, the RS-52 is hardly more expensive and has proven low distortion and will hopefully be around for a longer time.

[WillyD]

Which of the three would that be? The 95-6814 is the only one that appears to have a decent frequency response, but I don't like the low Q of the resonance -- reeks of thickish ferrofluid. Do you have distortion measurements?

Also, the RS-52 is hardly more expensive and has proven low distortion and will hopefully be around for a longer time.

Again, Evil Twin was only suggesting that this NEW design using the RS52 will be similar to those in the past that used the MB Quart. :T

The only unknown right now is the tweeter. The RS180 and RS52 have been chosen.

[morbo]

The only unknown right now is the tweeter. . The RS180 and RS52 have been chosen.

FWIW, since I'll eventually build this design, my vote is for the Seas H1283 - 22 TAF/G!

[ThomasW]

People can 'vote' all they want, BUT the design must fit in the larger PE box used by the NatP, Modula MTM, etc. Soooo, 3"+ diameter tweeters are a no go..