Geek Squid questions

[Lex]

Note, I said Squid, not squad.

looking at a new AMD based build:

ECS A7806-A Crossfire built ATX mobo
Phenom AMD processor (9850)
ATI Saphire graphics card with crossfire
XP based system
500 gb HD to start
basic DVDR/RW lightscribe drive
Power supply, basic 630 watt XION

Questions:

will XP recognize only 1 gig DDR2 dual channel DIMMS for a total of 2 or 4 individual sticks, or will it recognize 2 gig dimms for a total of 4 gb?

I'd like to make sure I order the right memory.

Would the performance gains from 800 mhz to 1066 mhz be that significant? Or is truly all the 1066 mhz memory actually just overclocked today?

thanks.

[Hdale85]

Well its not overclocked because that's what it was made to do standard. It certainly is faster but weather or not its enough for a noticeable difference is questionable. As for the memory you can use any combination but you want to use matched sticks of ram either by ordering the same memory twice or just ordering dual channel kits. Xp will see somewhere between 3 and 3.5gb's of ram depending on your motherboard if you have 4 gb's installed.

[Lex]

hmm, seems strange, would have thought it would stay in even increments, maybe it does, 512 increments...

yes, I planned to buy dual channel kit, was considering 2 or 4 gig via 2 sticks, unless I need single gig sticks. That's another question to which I would like to get a few people's input with AMD experience as well.

[dyazdani]

You may want to look at nVidia based video, maybe stick with similar chipsets on the mobo too. Jason or someone may be a better resource than I.

[Hdale85]

My current second desktop is an Amd 64 X2. I've had different amounts with different motherboards when running 4 gigs. As far as the slots go you have 4 memory slots in most motherboards. There are 2 different slot sets. Set A and Set B. You can have 2 1gb sticks in set A (usually slots 1 and 3) and then have 2 512mb sticks in Set B (Usually slots 2 and 4) as long as the sticks match inside each set it will run dual channel. You could also use 2 2gb sticks in slots 1 and 3 and be fine or use 4 1gb sticks or any combination as long as each set is matched.

[Kevin P]

Is there a website with specs on the ECS A7806-A mobo? I don't see it on newegg, nor does Google give me anything good.

will XP recognize only 1 gig DDR2 dual channel DIMMS for a total of 2 or 4 individual sticks, or will it recognize 2 gig dimms for a total of 4 gb?

You'll get less than 4 GB recognized memory in XP unless you go with the 64-bit version (which has its own issues). This is due to a limitation of the 32-bit architecture (max addressable memory), not XP itself. As for whether you can use 1 or 2 GB sticks, depends on the mobo.

Would the performance gains from 800 mhz to 1066 mhz be that significant? Or is truly all the 1066 mhz memory actually just overclocked today?

Some AMD mobos only support 800 mhz memory, and some only support 1066 for socket AM2+ chips. So once again, it depends on the mobo's specs, and the CPU specs (I looked up the CPU you mentioned, it is socket AM2+).

What will this system be used for? 4 GB might be overkill unless you're doing heavy CAD/graphics/movie editing/gaming.

EDIT: Is this the mobo? clicky

I didn't see a A7806-A on ECS's site. If that is the mobo, note that its maximum CPU power rating is 95W, and the CPU you're looking at (AMD Phenom™ X4 Quad-Core 9850) has a 125 watt rating.

Sounds like you're trying to trounce my Trouncer.

[Hdale85]

Well if a motherboard supports 1066 it should support anything lower.

[Kevin P]

DDR2 800 memory is more readily available and cheaper than 1066, but I tend to lean toward getting the fastest the mobo will support. Why add bottlenecks to save a few bucks, and have your hardware become obsolete that much faster?

What's your budget? You can always go one notch slower on the CPU to save $40 or so. The CPU is never the bottleneck nowadays anyway.

[Hdale85]

Well I wouldn't say never With gaming and what not it can be if your using the latest and greatest video card. But unlikely with what Doug will use it for. DDR2 800 isn't slow by any means though. I guess it just depends. You can get them around comparable prices I believe though.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227178 1066

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227189 800

So only a couple bucks difference. Also DDR2 goes up to 1200mhz now.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104059

[Lex]

guys, just trying to build all the system I can, for as little as I can. Thus I maxed out the CPU in the plan, but not some other. As to plans what to do with it, uh, 12 mpxl images,downloading up to 100 RAW files at a time for example. Photoshop CSIII and someday CSIV processing, Dreamweaver, quicktime videos, High def, etc...

Kevin, I think this is a new board, check TigerDirect for details.

I don't do NewEgg much, because they charge TN sales tax, 10%.

TigerDirect, no sales tax.

[Hdale85]

Well regardless just pointing out prices are pretty close together now a days.

[Kevin P]

guys, just trying to build all the system I can, for as little as I can. Thus I maxed out the CPU in the plan, but not some other. As to plans what to do with it, uh, 12 mpxl images,downloading up to 100 RAW files at a time for example. Photoshop CSIII and someday CSIV processing, Dreamweaver, quicktime videos, High def, etc...

In that case, you should probably be maxing out your hard drive sizes/speeds, before maxing out CPU. 500 gig will probably fill up fast once you start chucking 12 mpxl raw images on there, plus HD.

Maybe look into a RAID solution. Of course, you could always start tossing NAS boxes on the network for storage.

Quad core will probably be overkill unless you do heavy multitasking or run multithreaded apps that can take advantage of the cores... or want to crunch SETI units 4 times as fast.

Also, in this day of energy prices and "green" becoming the in thing, might be something to think about as well.

[Lex]

Well, valid points. In general, I offload my images to storage with raid backup at certain intervals Kevin. I have a 1 terabyte raid stack now, and may add another down the line for longer term image storage.

But I already have the 500 gig drive, it's a 16 bit buffer 7200 rpm drive, good drive. Not as worried about storage, that's a solution that can be easily remedied in many ways.

as to green, well, perhaps so. Are you suggesting I forgo the power supply and hook it up to my nordic Track for power?

The system is about future proofing too. Building a system only capable of taking care of today's needed, doesn't grow very well into the future.

But I do need to make sure everything is compatible. I'd like to really think this through before I press buy now.

I was going to get 1066 ddr2, but then thought about the price differential too, and wondered if the 266 mhz speed increase was really worth it. You like 2 gig of 1066 mhz memory over 4 gig of 800 mhz kevin?

Doug

[Lex]

here is the mobo Kevin: The user reviews are very solid.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3672390&sku=S458-1302

I also considered this mobo that doesn't have quite as robust a graphics setup: It's a nice looking board. I had one, but the system build failed. I think the board was DOA, so I returned.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3930721&Sku=P450-9118

Also, this MSI board draws me to it some: I think it's a pretty darn good board probably.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3489726&CatId=2320

Asus doesn't draw me to them quite like they used to. I don't think they hold the position they once did in the market.

[Kevin P]

Looks like a nice mobo. It has graphics built-in so you won't need a video card unless you want to use crossfire. Unless you're a gamer I would skip the video card.

As for memory, 1066 is 33% faster than 800, so that's something to consider, especially since you'll be working with large files. You could always start with 2 GB 1066 and then add another 2 GB later if you need it. I have 2 GB on my Trouncer and I doubt I ever use it all even when video editing.

I guess if anything, your system will be "Vi$ta ready" if/when you take that plunge down the road. I don't know how 64-bit Vista is, but I've heard the 64-bit XP has a lot of compatibility/driver issues. You'll want to go 64-bit down the road to take advantage of 4+ GB of RAM. Maybe you should throw VMWare or something on there and run multiple OSes on all those cores.

[dyazdani]

as to green, well, perhaps so. Are you suggesting I forgo the power supply and hook it up to my nordic Track for power?

No, get a squirrel/rat and a wheel plus a small generator to hook to it. You can also use the rat poop to power your car maybe...

A self sufficient computer!

[Kevin P]

No need for a generator at all, just toss the squirrel in the box and it can be your CPU!

If it starts to get slow, just feed it!

[Hdale85]

I've heard better things about the 64bit version of vista then I have about XP. The 64bit XP was sort of hacked together and I don't think it should have ever really been released. You're probably not going to use any more or less power with different cpu's. They can change the amount of stress put on your PSU but your PSU is still going to draw pretty close to the same amount of current. So I'm not sure that would make a huge difference. Now if your worried about noise and heat your going to want to get a higher Nm CPU. The newer ones are 45Nm I believe and they will run a lot cooler then the older ones. As far as future proofing its a bit hard with PC's although with things like video and graphic editing its not such a big deal because the apps don't change that often to where they need such a jump in power. On the video game side though you usually have a life span of 6 months to a year probably before you probably start to see significant upgrades.

[Lex]

I am thinking 32 bit if I do XP, which I probably will. Indications are Vista is getting better. But some people still says it has a ways to go. Since XP is still current generation really, it's ok, I am not all enamored necessarily with 64 bit. It could introduce some issues even for a DIY PC. I think if I went 64 bit, I'd as soon let HP worry about the compatibilities, and just get a canned PC. the idea does have some merit, if I wasn't so stubborn. Then too, most my software packages are XP compatible at this point, and further, I can get a clean install of XP for 75 bucks. Unfortunately, I had to use my last license for my notebook to upgrade it to PRO, since Sony didn't provide OS discs with system. So, unfortunately, I used my unused XP license for my notebook hard drive upgrade.

[Hdale85]

Vista has gotten a lot better. I was using it for a while but SP1 really made things much better. There were still some issues with some games I was trying to play though. XP works great but Vista's kernel really does run quite a bit faster. Which is more then I can say for the previous new versions of windows. Some day it will be great. But XP is still good in the mean time. Same thing happened when XP first came out though. Everyone hated it lol.

[Lex]

Ok, back at square one, no real decision made, except I want to get all the system I can for the best value I can, budgetary concerns are real. I am not putting a grand into a system.

Given that I have a nice aluminum case, a SATA hard drive, a SATA DVD R/RW, where to from here guys, recommendations?

I will likely buy from TigerDirect.com so use that as a basis for parts. I trust their return policies, others, not so much. Plus Newegg is a bad tax move.

[Lex]

I did consider this board, seem's like a nice board.

CPU voltages? not sure I see that there.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3489726&CatId=2320

[Kevin P]

The K9A2 Platinum can handle 125 and 140 watt AMD CPUs.

http://global.msi.com.tw/html/popup/MB/125w/p125w_e.html

[Lex]

ok, so no worries on that.

Let me ask you this Kevin. Does the fact this board here has video on board, does that mean you don't need a graphics card, or is this still a dual system designed so you have to have a board too? I'm a little confused by that fact. Understanding that thanks to you, I now know the board does have a 95 watt CPU limitation.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3930721&CatId=2320

Aside from that fact, if YOU were building one on budget today, what would you build if you wanted the best bang for buck performance?

Thanks.

[Hdale85]

I was just stating that the lower nanometer cpu's are usually lower wattage and run cooler. Should work in any board though.

It doesn't need a video card but if you felt the need for a better one you can add one as it has the appropriate slot.

[dyazdani]

The on-board video cards are fine for "office" work, but not so much for gaming/graphics apps.

[dyazdani]

Aside from that fact, if YOU were building one on budget today, what would you build if you wanted the best bang for buck performance?

What do you plan on using the computer for? That will affect the parts and pieces chosen for your budget.

[Lex]

Initially, and as stated previously, intensive photoshop CSIII, possibly CSIV/graphics applications. HD video via various players, dreamweaver, standard PC applications.

Gaming, probably not so much since there's little time for it or if I do it, would stick with dedicated gaming system for that mostly.

The big hitters are HD graphics, possibly blue ray later, but not initially. But then downloading 12 mpx raw files is no picnice. These could increase to 20-24 mpx images in the future.

It is not important that my PC be cutting edge, however, I still believe when you do upgrade, get all you can get now.

[dyazdani]

I would not use on-board video chipsets in that case...

[Hdale85]

Well the Nvidia Quadro series or ATI Fire series are aimed at graphic and video editing amongst other things. But that's not to say a standard gaming type card wouldn't work well either. Geforce 9600GT the 9 series cards have really come down in price. The ATI 38XX series are very nice as well.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814195048

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500019

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161220

These are newegg links but I'm sure you can find similar products at tiger direct. This could also be something you could add later if you needed to.

[Kevin P]

On-board video should be ok for those applications. HD would be the most intensive, and speaking based on the MythTV box I built 2 years ago, I definitely overbuilt that system. It has a Core 2 Duo E6600 CPU and an Nvidia 7600GT video card, top end stuff 2 years ago but probably modest by today's standards, and it doesn't even break a sweat recording/playing back HD (in 720p, 1080p would tax resources more). In fact, I didn't even have video acceleration enabled in my initial MythTV install, the CPU was doing all the decoding, and it was smooth as butter. I recently rebuilt it with a newer install (Mythbuntu 8.04.1 64-bit) and enabled XvMC which offloads the decoding to the GPU, so the CPU basically coasts (or crunches SETI units) while watching HD.

Photoshop won't tax the video card, as you aren't dealing with fast motion type stuff there. Memory and CPU are the factors for heavy-duty Photoshopping. Don't know about Flash, but the flash stuff on the web is pretty minimal bandwidth stuff.

If the mobo you choose has built-in video, plus a PCI Express x16 slot, you can use the onboard video and if you get into anything that overwhelms it down the road, you can toss in a good video card.

[dyazdani]

I've had bad luck with on board video - maybe the newer stuff is better, I haven't tried one in years. I've built recent PCs with mid priced GPUs (not the $5-600 gaming cards) and they have done well.

[Lex]

Yeah, perhaps that is a good point Danish about on board video. Crosstalk, where a card uses the on board video memory, ok. But again, this may be overkill. I Believe once I have the processor and memory firepower, the graphics card, no matter what I select is going to pretty well hum along without issue.

I'll go shop once more and see what I can come up with. Otherwise, I guess I could just do the HP thing and forget it. lol

[Allegiance]

Hi Lex,

I haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if I am repeating a few things. If you want to work with large graphic files and future proof your computer, I would go with a setup similar to this:

4GB of Dual Channel DDR2 800 - you won't really see the advantage of 1066 unless your gaming. With the price of RAM there really isn't an excuse not to get anything less than 4GB. Don't cheap out on RAM either, I recommend Corair.
64bit Vista - Go 64bit now, I use 64bit Vista on my regular/gaming machine and my media centre. I find it is very stable, and little things even navigating in windows is alot quicker :P . Adobes next version of photoshop will be 64bit. This also means you can use your 4GB RAM. Home Premium should do fine.
Don't use integrated graphics - Adobe is also looking at GPU acceleration for photoshop, having a cheap dedicated GPU is alot better than having integrated graphics. It will also help for HD video processing if you want to do that. Integrated graphics uses your RAM as video RAM, usually up to 256MB-512MB depending on what you set. Acrobat 8 also supports GPU acceleration now.
Go Quad Core - Multi-threaded applications are becoming more and more common, it will be needed in the future.
Don't cheap out on Power supply - It is one of the most important pieces of equipment in a PC, its worth the extra money to get it.

If you would like me to spec up a PC for you I don't mind, one last thing I would recommended it an Intel based CPU. I have a preference for them as I find them more stable. But I do use a Phemon X3 for my media centre just incase anyone thinks I am an Intel fanboy :P

Here is some info about GPU acceleration in photoshop:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/37611/140/

So, what can you do with general-purpose GPU (GPGPU) acceleration in Photoshop? We saw the presenter playing with a 2 GB, 442 megapixel image like it was a 5 megapixel image on an 8-core Skulltrail system. Changes made through image zoom and through a new rotate canvas tool were applied almost instantly. Another impressive feature was the import of a 3D model into Photoshop, adding text and paint on a 3D surface and having that surface directly rendered with the 3D models' reflection map.

[Allegiance]

Here are some parts + prices from tigerdirect:

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Processor = $209.99
Corsair TWINX 2048MB DDR2800 = $56.99 (Get 2x of these)
Seagate 750GB 7200RPM SATA-300 = $109.99
ATI Radeon HD3650 = $59.99
Vista Home Premium 64bit OEM with SP1 = $109.99 (If you want to go legal :P )

I haven't listed motherboard or power supply as I always buy Gigabyte motherboards and Antec power supplys and Tiger direct doesn't sell them from what I found.

It's a bit of a shame you don't live in AUS as I could have got them from distributors through my business for alot less :P

[Hdale85]

Sparkle, Antec (higher end stuff), PC Power and Cooling, Corsair, and there are quite a few others that make some very good power supplies. PC Power and Cooling has said to be the best for a while but they are a bit pricey. I believe he said he's going to use a hard drive he already has? Corsair, Crucial, The better Kingston stuff and Geil are about all I use for memory.

With the PSU just check its efficiency make sure it has dual rail 12V supplies and don't go for anything super cheap. If it weights half a pound chances are its garbage.

[dyazdani]

I built my PC with Antec case and PS and Corsair RAM - never a problem. I used the same brand components in another build for the inlaws (using Vista) and again, no problems. I also used a Gigabyte MOBO in that build, it works well and wasn't that expensive.

[Hdale85]

Yeah I was just listing some very good alternate brands so he has a range of stuff to look for.

[Lex]

you guys can try to talk me into Intel, but I'm still an AMD fan by nature. Plus, only the AMD Quadcores actually have 4 buses. Intel cheats and only has two according to what I have heard.

I'll consider any configurations.

Whatever OS I get will be my license for sure. Generally, I get pretty good rates on this anyway as education.

[Hdale85]

Well the AMD quad cores were having issues with their L3 cache. I'm not sure if this is fixed or not but basically you could only use part of the processors cache. Also the Core 2 Quads have more cache which is a good thing. I believe the Core 2's are still on top as far as performance. I have an AMD machine now though and its nice and quick no doubt but I love the Core 2's. I have AMD currently because my brother in law made me a great deal on some parts he had

[Lex]

hmmm, well that doesn't sound good.

[Chris D]

Watching this thread with interest, as I'm getting closer and closer to needing to build my next PC. (not to mention, still needing to buy a new laptop, which I'm putting off as long as possible)

[Kevin P]

The latest quad-core AMDs fixed the L3 cache issue. All the xx50 series (9750, 9850, etc.) have the fix.

I favored AMD until the Intel Core2 chips came out, now I would consider either for a new system, depending on price/performance.

[Lex]

Well, I had that part right as I was considering the 9850. Thanks Kevin, I figured you'd have the skinny. :-)

Come on Chris, misery loves company. lol. I would not think this would be so difficult.

Doug

[Hdale85]

Yeah I think originally it was a problem with the motherboard side of things but I guess the fix they put in place was processor side. I would go either way and the price difference isn't huge regardless. But I do still favor the Core 2's a bit.