Help a noobie....Basic Info on Monitors

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Stevepaul
    Member
    • Mar 2004
    • 44

    Help a noobie....Basic Info on Monitors

    Howdy,

    My hobby is speaker building. But, I need a new TV and have started lurking here at the "RPTV's, Plasma, and other monitors" section for the last couple of weeks. :lurk:

    I guess a few things have transpired in the 10 years since I last purchased a monitor. :E

    To get started, could someone help me with all the different acronyms? After lurking here...I think I have a basic understanding:
    *DLP = Plasma?
    *RPTV = Rear Projection?
    *CRT = Cathode Ray Tube (I think I have this one down!)
    *FPTV = Front Projection? (I thought these died years ago???)
    *LCD = Liquid Crystal Display.
    *Over head Projection = out of the ceiling projector?

    I am looking to purchase a widescreen HDTV. The monitor will be located on a 13' wall dedicated to HT (which is in my living room). My viewing distance is 14'. I am only 'allowed' $2,000 for this adventure (not purchasing until Christmas).

    Can you guys send me in a general direction?? What size screen? new vs emerging technologies? type of monitor? Should I wait a year?

    I don't even know where to start....you guys seem to know what you are talking about (considering I don't understand 50% of what you are saying!...the lingo is different than the speaker building lingo!). ops:

    Any help would be kindly appreciated.

    Steve
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15254

    #2
    You're doing pretty good on the acronyms, but DLP is digital light processing; it's TI's digital projection chip, which uses micro mirrors to modulate the light output.

    First you may want to think aobut how much light control you have, and what kind of viewing habits you have, or plan for this display. It's possibly a different direction you'll go if this is your main TV and used by the whole family 4-12 hours a day, versus an HT type of environment used primarily for movies and select HD shows.

    I'd recommend going out to some stores and looking at what's available these days, even looking at pricing up to 3K or so. I'd look at conventioanl CRT RPTV's, digital sets, and lower cost front projectors like the Sanyo Z2.

    I'm not enamored of the lower cost digital RPTVs; I see too many artifacts in the image when I look at them for very long. I also see that problem in many of the Plasma and LCD displays when fed with standard NTSC fare (including DVD).

    If you're a tweak head, you might do like I was considering doing, getting a good decent CRT RPTV and downloading service manuals and doing a very careful tweak setup. Out of the box, most displays aren't converged and calibrated very carefully, and don't display an optimum picture. This is common in stores like Best Buy; don't expect to see what the sets can really do.

    With digital you don't have problems with convergence or geometry, but you have other problems like scaling artifacts, temporal dithering, contrast and black levels, etc., which can't be adjusted out. For example, many of the digital projectors can accept a native wide screen 480P or 720P signal transcoded from a PC, but fast action games, particularly in darkly lit areas, cause significant temporal dithering of colors. Not good looking.

    I ended up going further off the deep end, and spending about what I would have on a decent "low end" 55" widescreen RPTV, but getting a used NEC 9PG+ CRT front projector, which new was ~$22K. There will be a lot of work in the setup, but it should look pretty good when I'm done; there's less than 700 hours on the CRT's, so there should be 6000-8000 more viewing hours left without replacing them. Since I'll only be using this setup for movie viewing, and I don't have cable, but may get HD, the monthly hourly usage probably won't be over 50-60 hours. At that rate, 8-10 years, I guess.

    Spend some time looking at what's out there. For comparison, if you've got a decent PC with a moderately high res display, watch a few movies on it, and get a feel for how good DVD can actually be. Use that as your reference, not how DVD looks on an average NTSC TV.

    Good luck, and happy hunting.

    Regards,

    Jon
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • aud19
      Twin Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2003
      • 16706

      #3
      As always Jon, good info :T

      Let's start with the acronyms... As Jon mentioned DLP is digital light processing and is completely different from plasma. DLP reflects light off thousands of little mirrors each representing a pixel to create an image. Plasma uses electrically charged gas to create a picture. DLP's are most commonly found in RPTV's and FP's (font projectors). I think the rest you've pretty much got except FP's are far, FAR from dead.

      At the price range you're looking at ($2000) you pretty much have two options as I see it. Wall mountable LCD or Plasma's are waaaay to expensive, especially for anything of decent PQ and size. DLP RPTV's are closer but still too much money at this point. Which pretty much leaves you with good but not top of the line CRT based RPTV's or low to mid end LCD based FP's.

      If you have moderate light control but can't make the room VERY dark and you want excellent black levels, CRT RPTV's are for you. You can get an excellent picture from 42"-about 57" in that price range especially if you are a "tweaker" and/or you get the set calibrated by an ISF tech. The easiest and most affordable way to enjoy quality HD and DVD IMO.

      If you have good light control and can block out almost entirely any unwanted light to the room and you are relatively easily able to ceiling mount or table mount a projector in your room, then an LCD FP is for you. The obvious advantages are a much bigger screen (70"-100"'ish) allowing a much more cinema like experience and no floor space is taken up by a big RPTV. However, black level will not be as good and if there's any light allowed on the screen it will wash out the picture making FP's pretty much unusable in bright rooms.

      Hope that helps Don't be afraid to ask any more questions :T

      Jason
      Jason

      Comment

      • Stevepaul
        Member
        • Mar 2004
        • 44

        #4
        Thanks Jon, Jason...

        Jon...you mentioned trying to jump up to $3000....well, $2000 is about all I can spend. If I spend any more, I won't have any money left to build the "Arvo's"!

        My living room....while large....is also part of a great room with big windows on one side and Kitchen/Dining areas off the other side. It just isn't possible to make that area very dark. So...based upon the advice given, it looks like I can rule out FPTV's. That whole projector idea sounds reeeeaaallly cool! Just doesn't work in my situation.

        This will be my main TV and will be watched 2-4 hours a day by my wife, kids, and myself...consisting mostly of Digital Cable with about 3 DVD movies a week. I built a 7.1 HT speaker system for a guy that had installed a 50" Pioneer Elite Plasma. While I thought it was really nice....the picture looked "too glossed over", probably not set up correctly? Either way I can't afford the $12grand he dropped for it. So...it looks like I am in the market for a CRT based RPTV. It is getting more clear now! :T

        I have a high-end audio/video store nearby, in addition to the BestBuy/Circuit City type of establishments...and have been lurking at all of them over the last month or so. You guys mention 'tweaking' a TV.....hmmmm. I've tweaked many speakers, but never a TV. I have a friend that is an electronics quality engineer and is going to help me "Mod" my first CD player here in the next few months. Maybe I can get him to help me tweak a TV.

        OK....CRT RPTV. Are there certain specs I should be looking for? Any reputable brands that, when tweaked, have an excellent bang for the buck? I realize these are broad questions...sorry.

        Sorry for the long posts....hobbies make me 'verb-acious'!
        Many Thanks,
        Steve
        ps: nice group of people here at the HT Guide. Other forums can be a bit more contentious.

        Comment

        • aud19
          Twin Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2003
          • 16706

          #5
          Steve, for calibrating the set the best place to start would be with a Video Essentials or AVIA set up disc. Other than doing those minor tweaks to properly set you colour, tint, white level etc the best thing to do to get the most out of your set is to have it professionally calibrated by an ISF tech.

          Imaging Science Foundation (ISF)

          IMO, I'd look at Hitachi and Mitsubishi sets first, then Toshiba then the rest. Toshiba sets have better stretch modes for 4:3 programming and are usually less expensive however they're also slightly lower quality than Hitachi/Mitsubishi but higher quality than the rest. Hitachi and Mitsubishi tend to be higher priced and slightly higher quality. If you go through with an ISF calibration I believe they will offer you the better picture.

          Generally the quality of lenses and size of CRT guns will have a lot to do with PQ. Other than that look for build quality, features and user interface.

          Check out this thread http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=7377 for some more information on the three main RPTV brands.

          Jason
          Jason

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15254

            #6
            Good info from Jason.

            It all comes down to budget.

            I suggested looking at sets which "retail" for up to 3K, to help set expectations and have an understanding of "quality".

            Being the bargain hunter and bottom feeder that I am, I was looking at a variety of RPTV's before I picked up my NEC 9PG+ projector. Jason's comments about quality are on the mark; if money were'nt an issue, I'd even suggest looking at Pioneer. They have some great sets, too, and like a lot of other folks, they're getting out of the CRT projection biz.

            I was looking at a Panasonic PT53WX54; at Costco, you can get one for ~ $1300, and I'd already located PDF's for service manual, and some other online hints for stuff like disconnecting SVM. It has a pretty decent convergence system, DVI with HDCP inputs, and multiple HD capable component inputs. My plan was to use the upscaling DVD player I bought (Zenith DVB318), driving the set at it's native 1080i, which bypasses the indifferent scaler built in. On HD class material this set looks pretty good; with a mediocre or noisy NTSC signal, the limitations of the scaler rear it's head, as is the case for most RPTVs.

            Not a top of the line set, but I was looking for something with all the basics at a good price that was tweakable. Not long ago you couldn't touch a widescreen HD ready display for much less than $3K. Out of the box sets like this need some tuning in convergence and color balance, but with a little effort you can get a very nice picture. OTOH, for someone not experienced, getting into the service menu and doing a deep setup might not be the first thing you want to do with your new TV.

            The less expensive digital widescreens are pefectly converged, but tend to suffer on issues like contrast ratio, color accuracy, and also have issues with the scaling- and since most sources are 480i, 1080i, or 480P, and many of them don't have a native 720P input, they have to scale EVERYTHING.

            I'm partial also to Toshiba's when looking for good performance on a budge; I used to have a Tosh RPTV, which I gave to my daughter; it tweaked up very nicely after I got the owners manual and sharpened the convergence and color balance.

            Best regards,

            Jon
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • Stevepaul
              Member
              • Mar 2004
              • 44

              #7
              Well, I spent 3-4 hours looking at TV's.....LCD, DLP, and RP. I asked many questions of the sales folks at all the various retail establishments. It appears that I was dealing with college kids home from College.....all four sales people at BestBuy had no idea what I was talking about when I asked them if unshielded speakers distorted the screens of DLP/RP/LCD monitors. Hmmmph. 8O

              Anyways, I couldn't afford the plasma's, so I didn't even look at'em. I have to say that I liked the screen of the LCD's the best. I was comparing a Mitsubishi RPTV, a Samsung DLP, and a Panasonic/Sony (?) LCD. The LCD just plain looked better to me. While the RPTV was less expensive (about $1800), the LCD was hovering around $3000, for the same size screen. Another plus is that the LCD is slimmer, lighter, and doesn't have the huge bottom half that the RPTV does (my wife doesn't like the 'huge-ness' of the RPTV's).

              The LCD just seemed brighter and less affected by viewing angle. Of course, I understand that the RPTV's probably weren't set up correctly...thus making the comparison uneven.

              The more I take my new wife out TV shopping....the more she is getting to like the slim designs. But, the engineer in me is fearing the LCD and DLP...ie, what the problems are going to be down the road.

              Just what are the major issues with LCD monitors? Jon touched upon them.....is there a thread here at 'the guide' that has already beat this into the ground? If so, let me know.....I don't want to have you good folks re-hash this for the thousandth time! :Z

              Thanks,
              Steve

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15254

                #8
                Yeah, the droids at most BB are pretty unknowledgable.

                Direct view large screen LCD's look pretty good to my eyes.

                The RPTV LCD's have issues with contrast ratio and screen fill. The screen door effect is more visible, because the actual pixel elements are so small, and it's harder to make them use all the space for transmissive behavior.

                I saw a Toshiba LCD that was quite good; 1280X768, appeared to have very good performance with the built in scaling chip. The contrast ratio of large screen LCDs is pretty decent, in the 600:1 range. They don't have quite as much problems with black levels as the projection style LCD. (Panasonic and Sony offer those). Thing to watch out for, besides contrast, is display response time. LCD's for standard panels have traditionally been not to speedy in response time, which affects the performance on fast moving video and gaming.

                They're just pretty expensive when you get into the larger sizes. And they aren't cheap even in the 20-30" range. But the LCD manufacturers are loving them, because they make much better money per square inch than standard 15" and 17" computer displays.

                They probably actually offer better operating lifetime, becuase the backlights in large LCDs, like the computer style, have an operating lifetime well in excess of 10K hours. Plasma's are at about half brightness at 10 K hours. Bulg style projectors, like the DLP and LCD RPTVs, need new bulbs about every 2000 to 3000 hours. For a high usage set, that might be every couple of years.

                I'd check out one's you're interested in by using some clips from movies you're familiar with that are "torture tests"; fast action films, and low light fast action films. Maybe some LOTR stuff. Also, the very first dogfight at the opening in the "Lost in Space" movie is quite good; it's also challenging, because of the wide contrast range, and will reveal white crush as well as black crush.

                Regards,

                Jon
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • aud19
                  Twin Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 16706

                  #9
                  Sounds like you ran in to the all to common problem of salespeople who haven't the foggiest about what they're selling :roll: BTW, CRT based sets are the only ones you have to worry about re: non-shielded speakers.

                  Personally if you're looking at chip based RPTV's I'd tend to lean towards DLP. You'll get better black-levels, usually better resolutions that also require less re-scaling and avoid the "screen door" effect some people find on some LCD based units. DLP has the "rainbow" issue but the faster colour wheels in the new sets should take care of that.

                  Being that a lot of new years models tend to be introduced around August, you may want to hang on a couple months to get the latest and greatest....

                  Jason
                  Jason

                  Comment

                  • 65notch
                    Junior Member
                    • Sep 2004
                    • 1

                    #10
                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                    I was looking at a Panasonic PT53WX54; at Costco, you can get one for ~ $1300, and I'd already located PDF's for service manual, and some other online hints for stuff like disconnecting SVM. It has a pretty decent convergence system, DVI with HDCP inputs, and multiple HD capable component inputs. My plan was to use the upscaling DVD player I bought (Zenith DVB318), driving the set at it's native 1080i, which bypasses the indifferent scaler built in. On HD class material this set looks pretty good; with a mediocre or noisy NTSC signal, the limitations of the scaler rear it's head, as is the case for most RPTVs.
                    New to the site, but I did googled and found this forum. I am researching this Panny, and it seems to be a good compromise for what I originally wanted. I've been looking for the Hitachi 51S715, but Circuit City isn't going to carry it and I've been through buisness connections will be getting a nice little sum put towards my TV but it needs to be done in a gift certif. so I've chosen Coscto. I was also looking at the Vizio DLP 56RP TV for about $2500.

                    But I think I am going to go with the Panny.

                    Jon, can you direct me to the service menus and can you tell me what SVM is and why you want to disable/bypass this feature. Also, I haven't been able to find (with any true clarity) on what this TV does with a 720p signal.

                    I've never tweaked a TV set, but am pretty electronically/mechanically inclined, so any help would be appreciated.

                    Peace,
                    Dave

                    Comment

                    • aud19
                      Twin Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 16706

                      #11
                      VSM = Scan Velocity Modulation



                      Scan Velocity Modulation

                      Technique employed on some cathode ray tube television sets for slowing down or speeding up the electron gun as it scans or paints each horizontal line of information. The beam is slowed down to reproduce areas of bright light and sped up on areas of low light or low brightness.

                      The process of scan velocity modulation causes distortion in the output if dark and light colors are close together or contained within one another. Dark areas tend to become larger and light areas smaller than they should be. The technique causes phosphors in light areas of an image to be overdriven and produce too much light output (blooming) and reduce detail.

                      Scan velocity modulation is sometimes listed as a valuable feature, but in fact it causes picture distortions. It is best to look for a television that does not use this technique or on which the technique can be turned off.
                      Jason
                      Jason

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      😀
                      😂
                      🥰
                      😘
                      🤢
                      😎
                      😞
                      😡
                      👍
                      👎
                      Searching...Please wait.
                      An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                      Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                      An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                      Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                      An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                      There are no results that meet this criteria.
                      Search Result for "|||"