"Digital" TVs, deciphering the terms.

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  • Dean McManis
    Moderator Emeritus
    • May 2003
    • 762

    "Digital" TVs, deciphering the terms.

    "Digital" is a buzzword today, and it is regularly abused. Most "digital" cable is NOT transferring high definition digital signals, but they are transferring the 480i NTSC analog signals into digital format, so that they can compress them, to get more channels across the line. So being digital, does not always mean better quality.

    People are looking for Digital TVs, and now looking especially for ones with DVI inputs, and although a full digital-to-digital transmission and playback will be cool, the analog to digital translation is VERY good at HDTV resolutions.

    A MUCH more important variable is the actual resolution that you are viewing on the TV.

    Also mostly all consumer display devices cannot actually resolve the full 1920 X 1080i resolution. But the consumer electronics companies conveniently don't measure the display's resolvable resolution, but the maximum digital input resolution (often called the addressable resolution), which is the highest resolution signal that the internal scaler can sync to.

    Some digital displays are actually digital in their technology (like plasma, LCD, DLP, D-ILA/LCOS/SXRD) as opposed to CRT-based displays (tube TVs, most RPTVs, and CRT-FPTVs) that use analog CRTs.

    True digital technology displays have a "native" resolution, which is the maximum (and only) resolution that they are going to display. So if you input NTSC 480i broadcast TV, the internal scaler will convert the analog signal into digital and then upconvert the 480p image to match the digital display's native resolution. Say 1280 X 720p, with gray bars formatting the 4 by 3 active image to around 1024 X 720p.

    And likewise when a higher resolution image like 1920 X 1080i is recieved, the display's internal scaler downconverts and deinterlaces the image to the display's 1280 X 720p native resolution.

    But even if the source signal is digital (HDTV), the connection to the TV is almost always analog (progressive component or RGB), which is internally converted back to digital, for digital technology displays.

    And the difference with CRT-based displays (Tube TVs, RPTVs and FPTVs) is that the scaler will take in the signal and if it not within the CRT's frequency range, it will downconvert it, and if it IS within the TV's scan capabilities, the display will do it's best to resolve the image.

    But NTSC-only TVs will only show a 640 X 480i image (regardless of 1000 lines of resolution claims) most digital capable tube TVs max out around 900 X 750i resolvable resolution, with RPTVs around 1150 X 800i, and better CRT FPTVs capable of around 1280 X 1024 resolvable resolution.

    The biggest reason for converting to digital connectivity is NOT for enhanced picture clarity, but to introduce digital copy protection into the TV to prevent media piracy, and content copy theft. DVI is the front contender with their HDCP/HDMI encryption, but it is NOT the standard, with 5C/Firewire and DFAST competing standards out there.

    Generally, if your TV doesn't have a HDTV input (Y-PbPr, RGB, DVI) then like most TVs it's a 480i analog-only TV. But if it can accept a progressive input from a progressive-scan DVD player (not analog component, S-Video, or composite) then it can also accept and display a HDTV signal as well. Even though it's not fully resolving the 1920 X 1080 resolution.

    And before you start regretting that current digital-capable "HDTV" diplays cannot full resolve HDTV, understand that depending on the size of the display, and the distance that you are viewing it from, your eyes might be the weak link in this chain. With most people needing to be only one screen-width away from the display to be able to fully discern 1920 X 1080i resolution.

    And it's quite likely that 1280 X 720p will look just as good from 20' away from a 96" widescreen image showing HDTV material as full 1080i.

    -Dean.
  • Chris D
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Dec 2000
    • 16877

    #2
    Dean-

    Nice basics tutorial. I have a question that I've been wondering about. If a display source like a projector has, say, 1280 x 768 pixels, how can it have what is stated to be a 720p native resolution? Doesn't the "p" denote progressive scan of alternating lines of resolution, meaning that 720p actually uses 1440 lines? (only 720 shown at a time) I thought this is why 720p is supposed to be a HIGHER resolution than 1080i. Doesn't the order of significant common resolutions go 480i, 480p, 520p, 1080i, 720p, 1080p?

    Am I confused? :crazy:




    CHRIS
    Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"
    CHRIS

    Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
    - Pleasantville

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    • Dean McManis
      Moderator Emeritus
      • May 2003
      • 762

      #3
      720p native means that the display has 1280 X 720 pixels, and the "p" part means that all of the 720 scan lines are drawn together (for a CRT display)
      or that they are all images in series for a digital display.

      720p has only 720 horizontal lines of vertical resolution.

      The difference comes with an interlaced picture on a CRT display (digital displays like LCD, plasma, DLP, etc are all progressive scan) actually scans every-other line 1,3,5,7, and then "interlaces" the even scanlines 2,4,6,8.

      When done quickly like 60 times a second (60Hz) than it looks like all of the scanlines are there. So in a perfect world 480i would look like 480p, and 1080i would look like 1080p. But with every other line always fading a bit before it gets redrawn, you can usually see a darker image with an interlaced source, as well as the scanline gap.

      The other problem with an interlaced picture is if the image is being panned ( as in watching a basketball game with the atheletes running quickly from one side of the court to the other) the first scan (1,3,5,7) doesn't match the image of the second interlaced scan (2,4,6,8) because the image spits when panned. With 480i (standard NTSC TV) that means an interlaced picture with heavy panning would have a visible 240 lines of resolution. Or that a 1080i broadcast would potentially have 540 lines of resolution with the same quick-panned video.

      But the horizontal resolution stays the same so the HD image would be 1920 X 540 (with a fast pan), compared to 1280 X 720p.

      But for slow moving video the interlaced image lines up well revealing the full 1920 X 1080 resolution.

      So most of the time the order of highest resolution would be 480i, 480p, 540p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. From my experience, outside of the specs, 720p looks very much like 1080i even with panning shots. And with a CRT and digital displays, progressive scanning provides a brighter picture (scanning twice as fast), and more stable looking image.

      -Dean.

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15298

        #4
        Reality is we've got a long ways to go before we can fully use and take advantage of 1080 formats, whether interlaced or progressive. Bill Cushman once told me (and I've heard confirmed from other sources) is that the HD camera's actually filter at about 1440 (just like the resolution limit of the new Microsoft WM9 Terminator 2 on DVD), and that with typical overscan built into displays, you get very good resolution mapping on a display that can do 1368 or there abouts horizontally- which may account in a small meausre for the "popularity" of that resolution in digital fixed panel displays.

        Most HD ready RPTV's are doing good to resolve 900 lines horizontally (about half the spec) and will only do so after a fresh calibration and convergence. And let's not talk about color resolution; HD is way ahead of DVD, but it's still limited compared with a computer RGB signal, because of the component format used.

        Still, limitations and all, most will acknowledge that as the "ultimate" expression of the NTSC format, DVD and modern displays have taken things a long way from what was considered OK and normal 20 years ago. Someday we'll realize HD's potential to the same degree, I hope... :sn

        Source material is just as big a part in the equation as displays. And don't get me going about the cynicism and "marketing speak" of cable companies that down filter NTSC to VHS resolution, digitally encode it, and then try to sell it as a "premium" service. Grrrrr!! :M As if not having a crappy signal to noise ratio makes it "hi rez"!

        ~Jon




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        Comment

        • George Bellefontaine
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Jan 2001
          • 7637

          #5
          Interesting post, fellas. There is so much to all this stuff about digital tvs and HDTV that I truly pity the poor consumer.




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          • Chris D
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Dec 2000
            • 16877

            #6
            George- Lets see... a few thousand for theater construction... a few thousand for speakers... a few thousand for a projector... a few thousand for a top-end screen... a few thousand for new processor and amps... a few thousand for theater seating and tactile transducers...

            ...wait a minute, I now AM the poor consumer!

            (Note to all: only joking in regards to how all our money disappears in this hobby... we all are really blessed to even have an opportunity to indulge in stuff like this)




            CHRIS
            Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"
            CHRIS

            Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
            - Pleasantville

            Comment

            • George Bellefontaine
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Jan 2001
              • 7637

              #7
              Ain't that the truth, Chris.




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              • JFrancisco
                Junior Member
                • Feb 2005
                • 1

                #8
                To Dean McManis: Thank you for the attempt to explain this confusing (to me) issue Dean. Unfortunately, I don't have the necessary fore-knowledge to understand half of it. I do have a problem I hope you may shed light on: I want to use the Progressive Scan / Composite Video input to my new Panasonic (CT-20SL14J)TV. The manual says it must be a type 800i signal, but every DVD I have investigated (including DVDs made by Panasonic) ALL have only type 800p composite/progressive outputs. Two questions: a. Why would Panasonic make an input requirement for something that does not appear to exist, and b. If it does exist - and I must believe it does - Where can I find a DVD with type 800i progressive/composite output?
                Saludos de
                JFrancisco

                Comment

                • Dean McManis
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • May 2003
                  • 762

                  #9
                  I replied to your PM.

                  -Dean.

                  Comment

                  • Azeke
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Mar 2003
                    • 2123

                    #10
                    Very informative thread, and much appreciated, my HT knowledge has been further enhanced.

                    Thank you Sir Dean,

                    Azeke

                    Comment

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