Sanyo PLV-Z2 - First Impressions

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  • vsarathy
    Member
    • Oct 2003
    • 53

    Sanyo PLV-Z2 - First Impressions

    I had the opportunity to audition a Sanyo PLV-Z2 today at length and thought that I would share my impressions/opinions:

    The viewing room was one of the dedicated HT rooms at the dealer's which had a 103" VuTec Vu-Easy screen. Viewing conditions in terms of ambient light were nearly ideal.

    The projector is equipped with a short zoom lens and was placed at about 10' (as recommended by the User's Guide) from the screen in order to project an 92" image (as we are planning on getting a screen that size). We kept the zooming at minimum. Our seating distance was about 16' from the screen.

    The first and the foremost thing that caught my and my wife's attention was the dreaded screen door effect. This was rather disappointing as lot of people claim that the SDE has become a non-issue with the latest LCD projectors that sport WXGA resolution. We watched movies with varying levels of darkness/brightness (Gladiator, Finding Nemo, Jurassic Park) and the effect was clearly visible most of the time to the extent of being annoying. In several scenes where there was large patches of bright/dark patches, this was manifesting itself in the form of significant vertical bands. I did not play with any of the picture adjustments or settings. The projector was used in the standard mode out of the box. But, I doubt if there is anything in the settings to minimize or get rid of this problem.

    There was also an Infocus 110 (DLP) in the same room. So, we swapped the two projectors back and forth and the image from the Infocus (which is 800x600) was so much cleaner from the standpoint of pixelation. We felt that the picture from the Z2 was a lot punchier with better colors than the Infocus 110. Black levels and brightness of the picture from the Z2 both looked good to us and was also just as good as the Infocus.

    Unfortunately, the visible pixelation on the Z2 was a big disappointment. I am wondering if I did something wrong in the way things were set up. I am curious to what reviewers like Projector Central have to say about this piece.

    Viji
  • Andrew Pratt
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 16507

    #2
    I'm stunned that you can see SDE from 16 feet back on a machine that's supposed to be better then my Z1 clone! You can turn the focus knob back a tiny bit that will reduce SDE a lot and not really affect the image quality but again I'm really surprised you see SDE from that distance 8O




    Comment

    • Trevor Schell
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 10935

      #3
      That is a disapointment considering I was waiting to possibly purchase the HD2.




      Trevor
      My HomeTheater S.E.
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      C5
      Trevor



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      • vsarathy
        Member
        • Oct 2003
        • 53

        #4
        I am not sure if Screen Door Effect is the correct characterization of the digital artifcats that I see in the picture during bright scenes. What I can clearly see are streak-like vertical bands in bright scenes.

        I brought the projector home on loan and did more viewing, but this time just projecting on the wall (creamish in color). The quality of the picture is definitely stunning in scenes where there is a lot of detail. I watched Monsters Inc. at length and the effects that I am talking about were seen very little. It was reallt very very impressive. But, when I watched Lord of the Rings-Two Towers, I could clearly see these "bands" in the scenes where most of the screen is occupied by patches of the same color and brightness.

        However, I didn't see any of that with the Screenplay 110 which uses 2.5x less pixels than the Z2.

        Viji

        Comment

        • Andrew Pratt
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 16507

          #5
          What's your source during these trials? The screen will play a big role in the image you see but it doesn't sound like SDE that you're seeing. There were some people complaining of banding with the Z1 that they managed to lessen with some menu tweaks or replaceing the projector so maybe that's what you're seeing




          Comment

          • vsarathy
            Member
            • Oct 2003
            • 53

            #6
            When I auditioned the projector at the dealer's store, I was using a Lexicon DVD player (don't remember the model). The screen was VuTec Vu-Easy and was 103" in diagonal. But, I was only projecting a 92" image. I could clearly see vertical streaks and in bright scenes the pixels were clearly visible from 15' from the screen.

            When I continued the audition at home, I was using a Denon DVD 1600 and projecting on the wall. The projection size and the viewing distances were about the same.

            Perhaps, the artifacts that I am complaining about is the Vertical Banding. However, there is no denying that SDE is seen in bright scenes. In any event, what is the solution for remedying Vertical Banding? Is it a projector-specific problem or LCD-specific problem? If it occurs only in some projectors then it sounds like a quality control problem, is it not? Again, I was surpised that the ScreenPlay 110 was doing a great job with 2.5x less pixels.

            Viji

            Comment

            • Andrew Pratt
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 16507

              #7
              I don't recall what the solution was but there's a long thread on it on AVS if you want to look it up. You could try another machine to make sure its not just a bug with that machine. i see SDE if I sit too close but I've never seen vertical banding on my 1HD




              Comment

              • Brandon B
                Super Senior Member
                • Jun 2001
                • 2193

                #8
                Interesting that they call it WXGA. XGA is a computer resolution, and is by definition 1024x728. WXGA is by extension, 1364x768. The Z2 is not really WXGA. But close enough I guess for marketing purposes, it is certainly better than SVGA.

                The vertical banding you saw is one of several artifacts that collectively are referred to as screen door, although that one in particular is also referred to as vertical banding and fixed pattern noise by some. I see this same phenomenon on my PLV70 clone, and in fact it is the most objectionable aspect of my PJ. I personally believe Sanyo's quality in this regard is variable, as several other owners with identical setups see this artifact in varying degrees. One that I am aware of has discovered some parameters in the user manual that can improve and worsen this on the 70. So I think there is a level of factory calibration that is lacking in quality at Sanyo.

                So part of what you are seeing is resolution based, and while defocusing will help, it is an inescapable part of LCD. Part of it, however, is possibly due to a projector with worse than normal adjustment from the factory.

                BB

                Comment

                • Andrew Pratt
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 16507

                  #9
                  You might see if you can get a hold of the Stuido Experience 2HD for a demo. Apparently SE's QA is much tighter then sanyo's and you generally see far fewer people with problems with the 1HD then the Z1...though I'm not sure they're sold in equal numbers on sites like AVS to make that a fair comparison. Still I don't know of anyone of us that have had a problem with our 1HD's (Erik, Kris or myself)




                  Comment

                  • Sonnie Parker
                    • Jan 2002
                    • 2858

                    #10
                    I have been following that extremely long thread over at AVS myself waiting until someone here got a Z2 and started a first impressions thread.

                    I only remember 2 people (out of about 15 or so) that had VB and/or SDE problems. I think I remember that one of those fixed his VB problem by choosing Film Mode L2 while using a interlaced signal. As far as progressive signals I don't remember any problems. I believe the other one was fixed by adjustment in the service menu. I could be confused a little on this because there are actually 2 threads over there on the Z2 that are miles long although I've been trying to keep up with them. For the most part the first impressions have been pretty good and claims of the Z2 being worth the upgrade from a Z1.

                    Several have stated that they can walk up to within a few feet of the screen before they see SDE.

                    It is apparent though that Sanyo has no uniform default factory settings as several were showing different settings on the same line in the service menu.

                    I myself am going to try to get a 2HD but may have to settle for the Z2.






                    SONNIE

                    Cedar Creek Cinema

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                    BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                    Comment

                    • vsarathy
                      Member
                      • Oct 2003
                      • 53

                      #11
                      Well, I don't know to what extent I can rely on the experiences/suggestions of the people that post in AVS forum. Because, the usage pattern varies so much among the users of front projectors. A lot of people are more keen about how it performs when connected to a PC for gaming purposes etc. One of the guys on that forum was asking if I could take a picture of Z2's projected image upclose with a digital camera and post it so that he can see how the SDE was :LOL: How could you possibly infer the video performance of a projector with the help of a still picture of it taken with a digicam? 8O

                      As for me, I just want to pop in a DVD, watch a nice movie for a couple of hours and walk away after that. I am not a tweak freak So, if things are looking bad out of the box, I feel hesitant to buy it.

                      I would rely more on the impressions/opinions/suggestions of reviewers such as the ones over at Projector Central. They have said that they would have a review of the Z2 by thanksgiving. I am curious to see what their findings are. In any event, if the quality control by the manufacturer is not good and you end up getting a sub-par unit, it's a hassle.

                      Having seen the flawless performance of Screenplay 110, which I compared side by side with Z2, I feel like leaning more towards DLPs around $3000 range, even if the resolution is less.

                      Viji

                      Comment

                      • Energeezer
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2002
                        • 147

                        #12
                        Originally posted by vsarathy
                        Well, I don't know to what extent I can rely on the experiences/suggestions of the people that post in AVS forum. Because, the usage pattern varies so much among the users of front projectors. A lot of people are more keen about how it performs when connected to a PC for gaming purposes etc. One of the guys on that forum was asking if I could take a picture of Z2's projected image upclose with a digital camera and post it so that he can see how the SDE was :LOL: How could you possibly infer the video performance of a projector with the help of a still picture of it taken with a digicam? 8O

                        I would rely more on the impressions/opinions/suggestions of reviewers such as the ones over at Projector Central. They have said that they would have a review of the Z2 by thanksgiving. I am curious to see what their findings are. In any event, if the quality control by the manufacturer is not good and you end up getting a sub-par unit, it's a hassle.

                        Viji
                        Viji
                        I've got news for you.
                        There are people over on AVS who are wacked (as with any public forum)as you found out but... there is also more knowlege over there than on this site, and projector central combined then multiplied by 5 IMO.
                        As far as PJ central goes I'd rather read a bunch of user reviews from owners (Here and AVS) and look for patterns than rely on a website review which may OR MAY NOT be biased in acccordance with sponsorships etc.
                        If you spend enough time over at AVS you will come to learn who the knowlegable people are. A good example would be Guy Kuo.
                        Just MO.
                        Steve




                        The Future of HT lies in FP SPREAD THE WORD
                        The Future of HT lies in FP SPREAD THE WORD

                        Comment

                        • Legairre
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2002
                          • 231

                          #13
                          While I love HTG I have to admit that some of the AVS members have been owning and using FP, DLP, LCD & CRT systems for a long time while most of us were still playing with our direct view sets. Some of the individuals involved in the "under $3500" threads are even ISF calibrators.

                          I've been following the Z2/2HD, HS20 and AE500 since August everywhere I could find a dicussion and the plain simple truth is that all these projectors are BUDGET projectors. Yes I know $2000 is no small amount but in the FP world it's pennies compared to what Runco and the likes cost. Last years budget projectors like the L300, Z1/1HD, X1 & HS10 all required some tweaking in the service menus to get the best picture out of them and this years crop is no diferrent.

                          When you buy an RPTV you can either leave it set to torch mode with the contrast cranked at 100% and have a crappy picture(and burn the CRTs) or you can buy AVIA or VE and use them to get a nice picture, but if you want the absolute best picture you'll call your local ISF calibrator. These budget FP are no different. Just like an RPTV, many FP come of the assembly like with diferrent default settings just like some of the Z2 and other FP are. We come here and to other forums because we're not the average HT guy. We value our gear and take pride in how it looks. Viewing a FP at the dealer, right out of the box with red push or VB is no differrent than looking at an RPTV at Best Buys. It's going to look like crap Unless your willing get it home and tweak it, which often means going into the FP service menu.

                          I've been following all 50+ pages of the original big Z2 thread and I've also followed the new review thread on AVS. The bottom line is these FP need calibrating/tweaking to get the picture right. Here's a direct quote from one of the post over at AVS from a user who had VB and went into the service menu:

                          Just set "14" (in the service mode) to 81 again and restarted the PJ. If you don't restart it the screen will be VERY red indeed.

                          VERTICAL BANDING HAS NOW VANISHED ALMOST COMPLETELY!!!

                          The picture is however a little bit more unstable from what i reckon... and how to calibrate the redness to perfection still remains to be done

                          Can't unfortunately post before and after pictures because I don't have my own digital camera. Will try to borrow one tomorrow though.
                          This guy has started to tweak/calibrate his FP and he's getting results. Here's a link to the Z1 service menu tweaks from someone who had his Z1 ISF calibrated http://www.xs4all.nl/~etmriwi/ht/sanyoz1.htm the Z2 service menu is the same.

                          I apologize for the rank guys, but all the FPs just need tweaking. Don't disregard them because they don't look great out the box. If we settled for everything out the box we wouldn't be here would we? I feel that for a true HT(just my opinion) you have to have a FP whether it be CRT,DLP, LCD or whatever to get that real theater experience, so don't give up on the Z2 yet. Just tweak it I know I will.




                          "What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
                          Radden Home Theater
                          "What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
                          Radden Home Theater

                          Comment

                          • Sonnie Parker
                            • Jan 2002
                            • 2858

                            #14
                            Well said Legairre...

                            AVS is a large place and it is congested so sometimes it does make me hesitate. It's harder to get to know people there than what it is here at htguide.com. That's my experience anyway. I'm much more comfortable here asking questions that's for sure. However, if you are willing to put the time into a lot of reading you can pretty much whittle through who is real. Maybe we can invite a few over to give there impressions here so that everyone doesn't have to go through 100 pages to find 15 first impressions. I personally would like to see more "First Impression" threads here at htguide.com. I think that is definitely what some of us are waiting on to make our purchases.

                            It should be noted that there are a few people posting that they have taken their Z2 out of the box and using the factory default settings, with component video connection and a 480p source, projected an image that they are very satisfied with. The pics posted look very impressive. Maybe we can get them to share with us.






                            SONNIE

                            Cedar Creek Cinema

                            DVD Collection

                            BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                            Comment

                            • Dean McManis
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • May 2003
                              • 762

                              #15
                              Yeah, there definitely is a huge pool of knowledgable folks over at AVS, but they often get lost in tangents, technical jargon, ego battles, and nit-picking that gets away from what most people need to know about particular projectors.

                              I still visit them regularly because they have so much info (if you are willing to read through tons of comments) and talented, knowledgable people.

                              It is a great place to research, but I go to other places (like here) to talk.

                              I'm very eager to see how the Z2 performs with a variety of inputs, but it is likely that Sanyo is still sorting out the software/hardware and Q/A issues of this new unit.

                              -Dean.

                              Comment

                              • vsarathy
                                Member
                                • Oct 2003
                                • 53

                                #16
                                I actually did read the posts at AVS about adjusting the Service/Factory menu settings and tried those settings to check if the VB artificats would go away. Unfortunately, it did not help.

                                If access to the Factory/Service menu is key to fine tuning the the performance of a projector, I wonder why some of the projector manufacturers try to obfuscate the users by not making it clear as to how to access these menus and what each settings means.

                                There was nothing mentioned in the Users Manual about these menus. But, when you pay $2000-3000 for some equipment, you ought to be able to make it work right just with the User's Manual, without having to scour through hundreds of posts on online forums.

                                Anyways, I think I will wait until more information is available about the Z2 and I shall give it another try. To be fair to the Z2, while viewing picture in which the banding was not readily seen, the quality of the picture looked stunning in all other aspects.

                                Viji

                                Comment

                                • George Bellefontaine
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Jan 2001
                                  • 7637

                                  #17
                                  Re: Factory Service Menus

                                  I think the reason mfgrs hide these codes is to keep the avrage joe from getting in and screwing up the picture, which usually leads to the unit being sent in for service. I believe that mfgrs know that the hardcore tweakers will find their codes, and really don't have a problem with them. It's the average schmuck they're worried about. Now having said that, there are other manufacturers that won't even give their factory/service codes to magazine reviwers, so what I said doesn't apply in every case.




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                                  • Sonnie Parker
                                    • Jan 2002
                                    • 2858

                                    #18
                                    Viji... Factory Service Menus are just that... Sanyo really doesn't want the consmer to be making adjustments themselves so that's why you don't get a manual for such. While there might be quite a few people around and about the forums that can use the menus very well, that doesn't mean everyone can. Think about all the PJ's that are sold to people that don't frequent forums and don't have a clue about service menus. They could really mess up a PJ trying to understand much of the terminology in a service manual. I can tell you for sure that about 3 years ago I would have never tried to enter into a service menu and still today I don't go too deep into my Toshiba RPTV service menu... there's still just too much I don't understand. And what.... there's over 100 adjustments on the Z2? Personally I think more people would mess up their PJ than would improve their picture by messing around in the service menu.

                                    I'm not saying that you couldn't do it and it be right... you may well do a fine job, but I think the majority would not. Keep in mind you are only seeing a handfull of owners on the forums and it seems most of the time people come to forums with their problems trying to eliminate having to send their units back for factory service or warranty.

                                    Having said all that you may can get your hands on a service manual if you look around. I've seen post about service manuals for other PJ's and RPTV's in various places. You might find one doing a Yahoo search or heck Sanyo or a Sanyo dealer might even sell you one.

                                    I know it is frustrating... but that's the reality of it and that's part of why the forums exist.






                                    SONNIE

                                    Cedar Creek Cinema

                                    DVD Collection

                                    BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                    Comment

                                    • Energeezer
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Sep 2002
                                      • 147

                                      #19
                                      Guys
                                      I just read my last post on this thread and I feel bad about it.
                                      I'd like to add that it is my belief that AVS while bigger and with a deeper knowlege base (the deepest on the net AFAIK) started out like Ht Guide.
                                      Small and friendly.
                                      It will be nice to see how this site evolves. Stay tuned.
                                      Steve




                                      The Future of HT lies in FP SPREAD THE WORD
                                      The Future of HT lies in FP SPREAD THE WORD

                                      Comment

                                      • Sonnie Parker
                                        • Jan 2002
                                        • 2858

                                        #20
                                        I was thinkin' if I were a new comer to htguide and read the topic to this post and was interested in a Z2 and opened the thread to find 20 posts and 1 first impressions.... hmmmm! ops:

                                        If any of you have buddy's over at AVS that have recently purchased the Z2 would you please invite them over here to htguide for first impressions? Heck, even if they ain't buddy's we can still invite them.

                                        Hey... at least they can post more than one image on the same post here and they don't have to necessarily post links to images... they can actually post the image.






                                        SONNIE

                                        Cedar Creek Cinema

                                        DVD Collection

                                        BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                        Comment

                                        • efarstad
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Jun 2001
                                          • 2231

                                          #21
                                          Something of interest for those wondering about the Z2...great video footage, especially of the lens shift feature:



                                          E





                                          The Norwegian A/V Nut!
                                          E-Cinema

                                          The Norwegian A/V Nut!
                                          E-Cinema

                                          Comment

                                          • Legairre
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Jan 2002
                                            • 231

                                            #22
                                            Sonnie,
                                            I've done as you requested. I really don't know anyone at AVS, but I did PM a member that has a Z2 and has very vocal in several of the Z2 threads. With any luck we'll get a review.




                                            "What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
                                            Radden Home Theater
                                            "What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
                                            Radden Home Theater

                                            Comment

                                            • George Bellefontaine
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Jan 2001
                                              • 7637

                                              #23
                                              Erik, that video was quite interesting, even though I didn't know what the guy was saying. That lens shift feature could really be a boon to some trouble rooms.




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