Help with taking the FP plunge...

**Andrew Pratt** · 18 October 2003, 00:19 Saturday

Sonnie that's some challenge you've posted for us!

Ok lets get somethings straight so we're all clear on this...

Exactly what will be your throw distance if you assume the PJ will be on the back wall on a shelf and the screen is more or less directly in front of your TV?

Is there any way you could move the centre speaker to a stand in front of the TV?

Have you seen any projection units yet? If so were they LCD, DLP or CRT?

I assume you have component running from the Denon to the TV...is this directly to the TV or though the Rotel? What other sources will you want to view on the PJ? (I assume your new HD Satellite box which should be component as well right? Is the HD unit plugged into the Rotel?

**Chris D** · 18 October 2003, 01:17 Saturday

Sonnie! That's great news! :banana: :banana: :banana:

I'll have to think about this one. But initially, I think the screen will be an issue. Having a large screen is one thing, and depending on the type and quality, could already be a little chunk of money. You can of course make your own to save money. However, you're talking about adding two aspects that add a lot of $$$ to the screen: motorized operation and acoustical perforation. With either one, you can't really make your own screen.

For a motorized, perforated screen alone, you're already talking the full amount of your budget or more, before you even look at a projector. To cut costs, you could go with a manual pull-down screen instead of motorized operation. But I don't know if you could do that and also be perforated. You probably could.

You may want to run your ideas by the leading screen makers, like Stewart, DaLite, etc. They may have ideas for you. Initially, methinks that with that budget you will have to go with a low-to-medium range fixed screen and an entry level projector. Fear not, though, we'll get you hooked up!

if I could point out one thing, it's that technology growth of projectors and screens are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Although new materials are coming out for screens that are great, screens in general are not getting quantumly better. (like computer processor speeds doubling or anything) A screen you buy today will work just as well for years and years to come. However, projectors are probably the #1 or #2 item that IS improving rapidly with technology right now. A PJ you buy now will almost surely be obsolete in a few years, depending on your definition of a obsolete picture. Therefore, with my project the strategy I'm taking is to buy one of the best screens I can now, knowing it will last for years to come and work with the various projectors I'm sure to own over the years. It's a good investment. But I'll keep it reasonable for a projector, knowing that I'll have to buy another one in a few years.

CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

**Sonnie Parker** · 18 October 2003, 01:38 Saturday

Exactly what will be your throw distance if you assume the PJ will be on the back wall on a shelf and the screen is more or less directly in front of your TV?

I'm assuming throw distance to be from the PJ to the screen. That would be 15-16 feet (I measured exactly 16' from back wall to front of RPTV).

Is there any way you could move the centre speaker to a stand in front of the TV?

I couldn't move it permanantly and moving it each time would get old the first time. The center speaker sits at 6' high. I also only have 6' between each front main speaker.

Have you seen any projection units yet? If so were they LCD, DLP or CRT?

Just pictures on the net and a few links from this forum but I really don't know what the specs mean (lumens and contrast ratio and XGA, etc.) except the higher the better. I visited one sight that had bunches of data projectors and I've seen mention of those on the forum. They all seem to be around $1K to $2K. But I think I'd rather have a dedicated HT FP.

I assume you have component running from the Denon to the TV...is this directly to the TV or though the Rotel?

The Denon 2900 components are connected directly to the RPTV.

I assume your new HD Satellite box which should be component as well right? Is the HD unit plugged into the Rotel?

The HD Satellite Receiver (Dish 6000u) is connected directly to the RPTV via components as well. No video is ran through the Rotel 1066.

The HD 6000u has an RGB output so I assume I can run RGB from the HD unit to the FP and component from the HD unit to the RPTV. (Keep in mind that soon I'll probably have an HD satellite receiver that will have DVI output also, so this would give me more options on the HD.) It looks like the HD part will not be a problem.

I guess my only option for the Denon 2900 is to run it to the FP only. Afterall we are getting an FP to watch DVD's. If at some point in time we want to watch a DVD on the RPTV I can easily swith the components from the HD unit over to the Denon 2900 long enough to watch the DVD.

As far as screens go:

- The only problem with pull down is it would be hard to reach up to 10 feet to pull the screen down and Angibug isn't going to have a string hangin' down from the ceiling.

- I can't put it behind the RPTV.

- I don't know... maybe I can get a roll up screen that can be mounted on a stand of some sort (a portable screen?).

- Either way I believe I'm gonna have to have the perforated for sound pass through.

SONNIE

Cedar Creek Cinema

DVD Collection

BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

**Chris D** · 18 October 2003, 02:59 Saturday

Hmmmm... yes, retractable screens are made that pull up from the floor. I couldn't tell you offhand who makes them.

A quick search found a Da-Lite electric retractable 16:9 screen, 57" wide for $1500. Not perforated, though. Just to let you know what you're looking at, prices I've seen for a FIXED Stewart perforated screen are $2000-3000. I checked Stewart's website, and they do say that the perforated screen material can be used in any flexible screen, so you could make a retractable screen out of it. Again, you're talking big bucks.

Other than Stewart, I'm not familiar with other manufacturers that make perforated screens, although you can check. I'm pretty sure some do. Here's good places to start:

Da-Lite | Professional Projector Screens and AV Furniture | Legrand AV

http://www.da-lite.com

http://www.stewartfilm.com

Select Residential or Commercial :: Draper, Inc.

http://www.draperinc.com

http://www.projectorcentral.com (general info on projectors and screens)

Custom Made Projector Screens | Vutec Projector Screens

http://www.vutec.com

Vutec Corporation is one of the world’s leading video projector screen manufacturers with a state-of-the-art product line developed to satisfy the.....

CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

**Sonnie Parker** · 18 October 2003, 03:22 Saturday

Da-Lite's Cosmopolitan Electrol 45 X 80 runs $958 to $1125 but I don't know how I would get it to drop down low enough from the ceiling. Plus none of those say they are perf.

Been reading some post here on throw distance. Appears mine is going to be at 16' so this might limit my options on PJ's.

Viewing distance from the screen is going to be another issue. While I will sit at about 12-13' from the screen, others will sit 8-9' from the screen. 8' is pretty close for an 80 inch screen. I don't know if a 6' screen (which should be a better size for our closer viewing distance) would be much of an increase over our 65" RPTV.

There sure seems to be a lot of variables in selecting and FP system.

SONNIE

Cedar Creek Cinema

DVD Collection

BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

**Andrew Pratt** · 18 October 2003, 09:47 Saturday

Quote:
Exactly what will be your throw distance if you assume the PJ will be on the back wall on a shelf and the screen is more or less directly in front of your TV?

I'm assuming throw distance to be from the PJ to the screen. That would be 15-16 feet (I measured exactly 16' from back wall to front of RPTV).

Hmm this could be an issue with most of the current popular budget projections like the X1, Z1, and panasonic 200/300 as they all tend to get mounted around 10-12 feet back. There might be enough zoom though to push them back to 15 though...I'm not really sure. I'll see what my manual has to say about it.

Quote:

Is there any way you could move the centre speaker to a stand in front of the TV?

I couldn't move it permanantly and moving it each time would get old the first time. The center speaker sits at 6' high. I also only have 6' between each front main speaker.

Two issues here...first if it can be moved you're going to have to go with a perf. screen which as chris points out is going to drive price up and really limit the screen types available to you. DaLite and Stewart make pref screens and I'm pretty sure you can order a Dalite pull down with a perf screen. You may not be able to get a grey perf screen though.
Secondly 6 feet apart isn't going to give you a very large screen...esp when viewing from 15 feet back. Is there any possibility of moving the speakers out another foot so you have 8 feet between them? Doing that will give you a 92" diagonal image which is what a lot of people use..and is nearly perfect screen size for typical viewing distances. For those sitting at 8-9 feet they'll see a little more screen door with LCD PJ's but its not too bad and most noobs won't even notice or care.

Quote:
Have you seen any projection units yet? If so were they LCD, DLP or CRT?

Just pictures on the net and a few links from this forum but I really don't know what the specs mean (lumens and contrast ratio and XGA, etc.) except the higher the better. I visited one sight that had bunches of data projectors and I've seen mention of those on the forum. They all seem to be around $1K to $2K. But I think I'd rather have a dedicated HT FP.

Are there any local shops you can visit to see the various formats? Esp. LCD vs DLP to see if you or 'bug see rainbows with DLP?

Quote:
I assume you have component running from the Denon to the TV...is this directly to the TV or though the Rotel?

The Denon 2900 components are connected directly to the RPTV.

Ok

Quote:
I assume your new HD Satellite box which should be component as well right? Is the HD unit plugged into the Rotel?

The HD Satellite Receiver (Dish 6000u) is connected directly to the RPTV via components as well. No video is ran through the Rotel 1066.

The HD 6000u has an RGB output so I assume I can run RGB from the HD unit to the FP and component from the HD unit to the RPTV. (Keep in mind that soon I'll probably have an HD satellite receiver that will have DVI output also, so this would give me more options on the HD.) It looks like the HD part will not be a problem.

I guess my only option for the Denon 2900 is to run it to the FP only. Afterall we are getting an FP to watch DVD's. If at some point in time we want to watch a DVD on the RPTV I can easily swith the components from the HD unit over to the Denon 2900 long enough to watch the DVD.

For the HD yes you should be able to use either the VGA or DVI connections providing the PJ you buy has DVI (most budget ones don't as of yet)

For the DVD player what i'm doing is running component to my PJ and s-video to my monitor. Since like you once I got the PJ I seldom watch movies on the small TV and when I do I won't mind watching them via s-video.

As far as screens go:

- The only problem with pull down is it would be hard to reach up to 10 feet to pull the screen down and Angibug isn't going to have a string hangin' down from the ceiling.

As chris pointed out electric screens are $$$.

- I can't put it behind the RPTV.

- I don't know... maybe I can get a roll up screen that can be mounted on a stand of some sort (a portable screen?).

That could be an option...as for the pull down you could rig up a "stick" with a hook on the end to reach up and pull the screen down with that you could then hide when you don't need it....that way there wouldn't be a string hanging down just a nice eyelet waiting for you to snag with the "stick".

- Either way I believe I'm gonna have to have the perforated for sound pass through.

Agreed.

**Sonnie Parker** · 18 October 2003, 14:46 Saturday

The throw distance is going to be hard to overcome. I may have to wait it out until a respectable budget FP with good throw distance becomes available.

I can't move my mains out any further than about 6 more inches, so if I want to get a screen size that is going to make a significant difference I'll have to go with a perf screen. This way I can leave my LCR speakers as they are and they'll be covered up entirely by the screen.

No shops around to demo that I know of but I'll check around in Montgomery, AL., maybe there's one up there. I know there's a Circuit City and maybe one semi high-end A/V shop.

That's a good idea on the screen to use a stick... that will make the screen less expensive and I can live with this method better than a portable. Still just no way to get around a perf screen.

The Panasonic PT-L300U seems to handle the screen door effect fairly well from what I've been reading and has a good rated throw distance of 3.9' - 24.3'. But the screen would have to be 140" at about 15'. This unit is on my list of possibles. Stronger possibilities are probably going to be the 2HD or Z2. The Z2 can handle the screen door effect possibly even better and has better mounting angles. This could allow us to mount it closer and to the side of the ceiling fan.

I'm going to be really patient with this trip into FP land. All in all it could end up taking be several months to get what I think will be acceptable. It will be interesting to see what developes.

SONNIE

Cedar Creek Cinema

DVD Collection

BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

**Dean McManis** · 19 October 2003, 04:05 Sunday

The pull down stick doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. A motorized, perforated screen could easily cost you as much as the projector.

I've had two perforated screens. My first was a DaLite Audiovision screen, where I bought just the screen material and made my own tensioned frame, and my current screen is a 180" 16:9 Stewart Grayhawk microperf screen. Both screens were non-retractable. And the Stewart was noticably better, but is much more expensive to buy.

If you have enough space above the speakers, you can have a pull down screen that's not perforated, but some screen manufacturers will sew on a black accoustically transparent fabric to the bottom of a screen to cover up your TV and speakers from view, but you can hear the audio fine.

This is a better solution if you normally watch 1.78:1, 1.85:1 or 2.35:1 widescreen movies, because they don't require the screen height of 4:3 TV viewing.

-Dean.

**Andrew Pratt** · 19 October 2003, 19:53 Sunday

I didn't know the greyhawk was available as a perf screen.

The Z2 could well be what you're waiting for I know I'm very happy with my 1HD unit.

**Lex** · 19 October 2003, 20:24 Sunday

Two things, I think long throw lenses are available for some PJs that don't necesarily come with one. But more bucks.

Another idea would be, get into FP now with a standard budget unit, and in your case actually spend more on the screen. To get around the throw, something so simple as a TV tray could work to get the PJ at the correct throw distance. Mark with threads on the carpet where it goes, so you don't have to readjust much. I've got my pj on what's called a cocktail table that matches my living room tables. It sits a foot in front of my coffee table. Granted, most women would say NO! You can't do that. But you see, I don't have that problem. Thus that's why I suggested a movable mount. The other more complex thing would be a ceiling drop mount.

Lex

**Lex** · 19 October 2003, 20:27 Sunday

I think you can do it Sonnie, but you might have to get Angiebug to make a compromise or two on equipment decor.

I'd suggest mounting your speaker down low to solve the center problem. You know, I moved mine low, since I don't have an RPTV there to sit it on, and I think I actually like it better lower.

Lex

**Andrew Pratt** · 19 October 2003, 21:44 Sunday

My centre's been on the floor (well near it) ever since I built my HT...its always seemed seamless to me.

**Sonnie Parker** · 20 October 2003, 01:07 Monday

Thanks guys!

I can mount the Z2 or 2HD on the back wall with a wall mounting bracket and it would end up being about 14.5' from the screen. I think this is going to call for about a 110-120" screen though. That might get a little too big from 8-12' away... I don't know.

Bug isn't going to let me move the center to the floor and she's not going to let me prop the PJ on a table. This is going to have to be seamless integration into the room and work smoothly or I will never get WAF.

Maybe someone around htguide will own the Z2 or 2HD soon and can maybe test the distance for me and tell me how a 92" pic would look at 14-15'.

I'm going to be extremely patient with this.

SONNIE

Cedar Creek Cinema

DVD Collection

BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

**Dean McManis** · 20 October 2003, 02:09 Monday

Andrew,

I believe that all of Stewart's screens can be ordered with perforations.

Sonnie,

You can also order pull down screens with accoustically transparent black material above the screen and perhaps mount the center channel and front speakers on the back wall above the active screen area.

My closest seating is 7' away from the 180" diag screen and some people actually prefer the close seating, even when playing the tiny XGA DLP projector. A 110"-120" screen would be nice viewed from 8'-12' away.

One other potential issue with the perforated screen is that certain projectors will create moire distortion patterns between the projected pixel gaps and the holes in the screen. You can get around this by having a larger or smaller screen, a diffusion or anamorphic lens, or simply defocusing the FPTV. But I thought that I'd mention it.

-Dean.

**Sonnie Parker** · 20 October 2003, 09:23 Monday

Thanks Dean.

At 7' I would think 180" picture would be tough to keep up with. Do you get any screen door effect that close? What PJ are you using? (I can't pull up profiles on this puter at work).

SONNIE

Cedar Creek Cinema

DVD Collection

BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

**Andrew Pratt** · 20 October 2003, 10:25 Monday

180" screen 8O

**George Bellefontaine** · 20 October 2003, 12:41 Monday

Awww, Sonnie, you are such an intelligent guy to be going Front Projection

Check out Projector Central's website. They have reviews on just about any PJ you can think of. Not the best reviews in the world, but they will give you a good example of what's available and what they do for the money. At 14 to 16 feet you will need a medium throw projector. One off hand that I know of is the Sony HS 10 lcd widescreen PJ. There are others and when looking at PJs at Projector Central, you can check a projector's throw size ( distance from screen, size of picture) with their calculator.

My Homepage!

**Sonnie Parker** · 20 October 2003, 17:32 Monday

Thanks George,

I have visited Projector Central several times and there is a lot of good info there. I've been using their calculators to do some figuring but can't come up with the best solution just yet.

I may end up having to move my ceiling fan hanging down in the middle of the room. The Z2 has supposedly good lens shifting so I can mount it high which will get WAF better than on the back wall. This would really solve all my throw problems. I just don't think we can keep up with a 120" image at 8-12' as well as we could a 92-100". I should remind myself that we have a 65" screen now and moving to 92-100" should make a huge enough impact.

The biggest problem I see for now is the perf screen cost. Da-lite only makes the perfs in fixed or tensioned motorized. I just don't see how we can use a fixed screen.... no place to store it and too much trouble moving it in and out. I've found their Cosmo Audiovision Tensioned Motorized 106" screen for about $1500 and 92" for about $1400... so this might be what I'm stuck with. Haven't checked Draper yet and Stewart I understand will probably be more expensive.

Of course if I can get the Z2 or 2HD for about $1500 or so street price the $1500 or so on a screen will put me close to my budget anyway.

SONNIE

Cedar Creek Cinema

DVD Collection

BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

**Dean McManis** · 21 October 2003, 03:43 Tuesday

Sonnie,

No screen door with the G15/D-ILA, some small screen door up close with bright scenes viewable from 7' away, and you can just make out the perforations as well from that distance if you are looking for them.
Still, I've never had any bad picture comments from viewers, but I'm more critical about the picture quality. Yet, up close the bigger picture is more immersive and many visitors prefer the front seating.

Actually $1500 is not too bad for a motorized, tensioned, and perforated screen.

Since you have a little time before you have to buy the equipment/accessories, I'd suggest that you contact DaLite, Stewart, and Draper and have them send out some 8" X 10" screen samples for you to look at. They will usually do it for free or cheap, and you can get a feel for the reflectivity, texture, and sound transmission quality of the different perforated screen materials.

-Dean.

**Sonnie Parker** · 21 October 2003, 19:53 Tuesday

Thanks Dean!

I think all my problems that I initially started this thread for have now been solved.

See this thread in the DIY forum.

I love it when a plan comes together!

SONNIE

Cedar Creek Cinema

DVD Collection

BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

Help with taking the FP plunge...

Help with taking the FP plunge...

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