Need advice on upgrading my projector please...

[Openly Baffled]

For the past 3 years or so, give or take a few months, I have been using an InFocus SP4800. It's been a great projector with a pretty decent picture, and still running on the original bulb, almost 3000 hours on it! It has never given me a single problem, but it's time for an upgrade.

As far as projectors are concerned, I have been out of the loop for a while. I haven't had a need to look at them for several years, so I'm not up to speed on the latest and greatest there is out there.

My room is 13x17x8, which means that the surface of the screen is right at 16' in front of the lens. The screen is 109" with a gain of 2 IIRC, but not 100% sure on the gain. The seating is right about 13' away from the screen.

Anyway, I'm wanting to upgrade to something that is:
1) a native 16.9 aspect ratio,
2) great contrast and lumen,
3) greater resolution than my current 600x800,
4) has an HDMI input as well as component,
5) is easy on bulbs and lasts around 3000 hours at least,
6) and is right at or below $1200. The lower the better.


Are DLP's still the better way to go to keep away from the "screen door" effect or are LCD's just as good now? Any "one" over the other? Are there any 1080 projectors out there that good for the price range I'm looking at?

I don't know if it has any bearing on the subject, but I plan on upgrading my current Panisonic DVD-S52 DVD player to the Oppo DV-981HD at the same time for obvious reasons.

Any help, info and guidance you can provide me will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance!

-Charles

[Hdale85]

There is only one 1080p projector I know of thats close to your price range and its the Mitsubishi HC4900 (pretty sure thats the right number) its very good and fits your requests but I believe its about 1400 or so after a mail in rebate. You might want to check out the Sony VPL-VW15 as its pretty nice and under 1000 only 720p though but has an auto iris and has pretty darn good contrast and black levels which to me are more important then contrast ratio.

[gc8ej25]

I ordered a Panasonic PT-AX200U yesterday. I plan on getting a Carada screen too.

-$1250
-720p
-2000 lumens
-6000:1 contrast ratio
-2 HDMI inputs
-1 component input

You can use the calculator at projectorpeople.com to see if it will work with your room, as far as throw distance and screen size.

[Openly Baffled]

I ordered a Panasonic PT-AX200U yesterday. I plan on getting a Carada screen too.

-$1250
-720p
-2000 lumens
-6000:1 contrast ratio
-2 HDMI inputs
-1 component input

You can use the calculator at projectorpeople.com to see if it will work with your room, as far as throw distance and screen size.

Thanks! Funny you should mention the PT-AX200U as I was just looking at that one a few minutes ago. :T Let me know what you think of it. :B

[draganm]

720P and 2000:1 CR was really the bomb with digital projectors 5 years ago but by todays standards it sucks and 480P is unwatchable IMO.
With any digital you want at least 1080P to avoid seeing Pixels and I think 15K:1 CR is the starting point for acceptable dynamic range. :T

[Hdale85]

CR is very much not a valid buying point because everyone has their own way of measuring it and the amount that they very is huge so best to look at reviews. Look at the new Panasonic plasma's they have 5k:1 CR but have the best contrast and black levels of any TV out there. Well one of the best Pioneer is better now of course but not much .

[Openly Baffled]

CR is very much not a valid buying point because everyone has their own way of measuring it and the amount that they very is huge so best to look at reviews. .

Agreed.

[gc8ej25]

720P and 2000:1 CR was really the bomb with digital projectors 5 years ago but by todays standards it sucks and 480P is unwatchable IMO.
With any digital you want at least 1080P to avoid seeing Pixels and I think 15K:1 CR is the starting point for acceptable dynamic range. :T

Post a link to a projector that can do that in the $1200 range. Oh wait, it doesn't exist.

[Openly Baffled]

Post a link to a projector that can do that in the $1200 range. Oh wait, it doesn't exist.

Exactly!

Plus I was just looking a bit more on the Panasonic PT-AX200U and I read (I think on Projector Central) that they thought the image quality looked just as good as a 1080 projector, and that is a 720p projector!

I think that the Pannie might be my next projector. It's a toss-up between that one and the Mitsubishi HC4900, depending on the price I can get it for, and how much I can afford at the time. But as it stands, I'm 90% sure of getting the Pannie.

[Hdale85]

If you can swing the Mits I would say definitely go for it. Awesome projector for the price.

[gc8ej25]

If you can swing the Mits I would say definitely go for it. Awesome projector for the price.

It only has 1000 lumens? What does that put the economy mode at? Are you going to have perfect lighting control or is there going to be some ambient light?

[Openly Baffled]

It only has 1000 lumens? What does that put the economy mode at? Are you going to have perfect lighting control or is there going to be some ambient light?

Nah, there's no ambient light since we only watch movies after sun-down. However, I do want to the image to be bright and crisp, not dark and dull. Not saying that the Mits would be like that.

BTW, I found an old post on another forum I used to be on all the time and my screen is actually a 106" and 1.3 gain. I was a little off on my numbers in my first post. ops:

[Openly Baffled]

If you can swing the Mits I would say definitely go for it. Awesome projector for the price.

That's what I was thinking. Who has the best price on it?

[draganm]

CR is very much not a valid buying point because everyone has their own way of measuring it and the amount that they very is huge so best to look at reviews. Look at the new Panasonic plasma's they have 5k:1 CR but have the best contrast and black levels of any TV out there. Well one of the best Pioneer is better now of course but not much .

That's the biggest nonsense i've read all week. By your reasoning, there's really no difference between a digital projector with 2K:1 and a Liquid Coupled CRT with 30K:1 = total Foobar
I have seen many PJ's, some with 2K:1, 15K1, and 30K:1, there is a huge difference. At 2K:1 you really have no dynamic range at all, it's just a Graymaker and I would go so far as to say you might as well leave all the lights on in the room because it won't make much of a difference in dynamic range anyway. I'm not sure about your reference to Plasma TV's but we are discussing front projectors.

Post a link to a projector that can do that in the $1200 range. Oh wait, it doesn't exist.

Well since you didn't specify brand newm, here it is

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-VPH-G70Q-Multiscan-Video-Projector-Gently-Used_W0QQitemZ220196615271QQihZ012QQcategoryZ32862QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

although buying from someone other than a surplus place will insure greater success in the products condition.

[Hdale85]

And only a fool would believe that those ratings from different brands are created equally. By what your saying the Panasonic and Pioneer plasma's which have a rated CR of 5000:1 couldn't possibly be better then the previous plasma's with 15k:1 CR's. The point here is companies find ways to bloat specs and CR is one of the most bloated and unreliable specs on a TV true CR is always greatly different. And then came the Auto Iris which boosts CR tons but doesn't do anything for black levels so you had all these digital projectors with very broad range of CR's but not very good black levels. The point is, is that each and every company measures CR differently and none of them are equal so you cannot logically compare anything that is across different brands and what not as its comparing apple to oranges. My point about plasma's is very logical to this discussion. My point is that you can not go by what the MFG's rated CR is because its never correct and its usually overly bloated.

[Hdale85]

I don't beleive the Sony G70 (Might be thinking of the G50 but I'm almost posative the G70 can't do it either or it can't do it very well) can't resolve 1080p. And if you could it would be quite hard and take tons and tons of tweaking. I honestly doubt the OP is looking for something that large.

[Hdale85]

That's what I was thinking. Who has the best price on it?

I think its projectorusa.com something like that... it doesn't show the sale price until its in the cart. But its like 1800 something and then 500 dollar MFG MIR which they extended to the end of Feb now.

http://projectorusa.com/cart/products.aspx?pid=5793

[draganm]

And only a fool would believe that those ratings from different brands are created equally. By what your saying the Panasonic and Pioneer plasma's which have a rated CR of 5000:1 couldn't possibly be better then the previous plasma's with 15k:1 CR's. The point here is companies find ways to bloat specs and CR is one of the most bloated and unreliable specs on a TV true CR is always greatly different..

yes the companies will screw with measurements, but we're talking a little bit this way or that. You made it sound like you migth as well not bother looking at CR because it's meaningless. Also, you keep refering back to TV's, which is pointless due to the fact that a TV's CR is constant, regardless of the environment. With a front projector, the room is part of the picture. The same PJ in a painted dark room versus a room with white wallsand ceilings can affect the CR by up 10k to 1, assuming you're machine even has that much range.

The point is, is that each and every company measures CR differently and none of them are equal so you cannot logically compare anything that is across different brands and what not as its comparing apple to oranges...

Well no, The point is that the diffrence between a 2K:1 PJ and a 15K1 is literally night and day, period, end of story.

And then came the Auto Iris which boosts CR tons but doesn't do anything for black levels so you had all these digital projectors with very broad range of CR's but not very good black levels.

That I agree with completely, AI was a serious piece of crap and a lame band-aid. BTW, that's Mitsubishi you're recomending uses AI to deliver a whopping 7500:1 CR :T

I don't beleive the Sony G70 (Might be thinking of the G50 but I'm almost posative the G70 can't do it either or it can't do it very well) can't resolve 1080p. And if you could it would be quite hard and take tons and tons of tweaking..

Yes, it can do 1080P no problem, I've seen it and even set up a few G70's. However, on a 16:9 screen with squeezed raster 720 is a perfect choice, sharp and smooth with no pixels.

I honestly doubt the OP is looking for something that large.

Oh? I didn't know you guys knew each other.

[Hdale85]

I know it has an AI but it can be tweaked or turned off at least. Most newer digital projectors have AI.

[gc8ej25]

Well since you didn't specify brand newm, here it is

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-VPH-G70Q-Multiscan-Video-Projector-Gently-Used_W0QQitemZ220196615271QQihZ012QQcategoryZ32862QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

although buying from someone other than a surplus place will insure greater success in the products condition.

But no HDMI so it's useless to the OP. I'm just not sure why you think spending double on a 1080p projector is the least you would want.

[Hdale85]

Well there are ways to get around the HDMI and the HDCP. You could buy a HD Fury which does HDMI to component and it removes HDCP. But I agree the op was talking about DLP and LCD so don't see how he would be interested in a 200+lb CRT.

[draganm]

But no HDMI so it's useless to the OP..

well like doug pointed out,an HD Fury HDMI converter-dongle is only $200. The G70 deserves better than the fury though, a Moome HDMI card with 12 bit HDMI 1.3 will plug directly into the G70's expansion slot.

I'm just not sure why you think spending double on a 1080p projector is the least you would want.

Simply because with 720 digitals I can see Pixels and screen doors from 15 feet away :E . It's like when I tried watching 1080i on my Marquee 8500, the scan lines drove me crazy after about 3 or 4 movies. i'm now at 720P, and with a CRT 720P is both smooth and sharp, not as sharp as the 1080P digitals but a better pic in other ways.

But I agree the op was talking about DLP and LCD so don't see how he would be interested in a 200+lb CRT.

well it depends, i'm not saying run out and buy that flea-bay G70. It might be minty or a total basket case. Certain people are just inclined to choose the CRT pic. there was a poster on AVS recently who went back to a CRT, G70 to be exact, after using a Sony Pearl for 7 months. Here's a couple of quick comments so you don't have to read the whole post.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=955050&page=2

begining

As most of you know I started this wonderful HT hobby along time ago with the Electrohome 4100 CRT since the I have had few other CRT’s last one was an NEC XGLC since then I have move on to digital with the Sony Pearl that looks great as I have lived with it for about 7 months know. However I am thinking of know going back to CRT Wow! how I miss my deep blacks and wonderful color. I guess if I would have never started my HT hobby with CRT the digital PJ would be fine. I know got the itch to get back into the wonderful world of CRT.

end

At the moment I am using the moome DVI input card so at the moment the shadow detail is lacking a bit. But once I get the moome hdmi card I am sure I will see the improvement in that area. Overall the endless black is just amazing. Color OH BOY COLOR it’s just a wonderful thing to get that color back. Interlace artifacts from 1080I on the G-70 is something I will have to live with.

All i'm trying to say is that with a used CRT in good shape you can get a pic to rival the $5K digitals. IT's not for everybody thoguh, that thread really shows how much work is involved with setting up one of these beasts. It depends on the OP (and his WAF) , you have to be a pretty accomplished hands on type to tackle a G70, they're rather complicated even by CRT standards.

[Openly Baffled]

I used to calibrate Runco and Sony CRTs all the time over 10 years ago. The picture quality of those compared to my now old and outdated InFocus Sp4800 still sucked compared to what I'm getting now. I can't recall how good or bad the contrast was on them, but I certainly remember how constantly soft the images always were. I hated them for that very reason. And I sure as heck don't want one of those tanks hanging off of my ceiling. Sorry, been there and done that, and will never go back.

Dougie085 and gc8ej25 are correct in assuming that I do not want old, huge CRT projectors and that no HDMI connections are useless to me.

BTW Dougie085, thanks for that link!

P.S. I do believe that this thread has wondered off topic a little bit. :boobies:

[draganm]

Dougie085 and gc8ej25 are correct in assuming that I do not want old, huge CRT projectors and that no HDMI connections are useless to me.I used to calibrate Runco and Sony CRTs all the time over 10 years ago. The picture quality of those compared to my now old and outdated InFocus Sp4800 still sucked compared to what I'm getting now.

lots of people don't want to tackle CRT, that's not unsuall. However, if that sp480 looks better than the CRT's you worked on "10 years ago" you must have worked on some real junkers. 10 years ago, the most common CRT's were Sony 1031's, 600 lumen ES focus sets and nobody is using those today. Just FYI, look at the screen shots in the thread i linked to and tell me those pics suck.
To get back OT, In your price range just get that Mitsubishi, it will throw a pic that will make (almost) everyone very happy. Completely plug and play too.

[cjd]

By the way, I'm not sure the Mits 4900 would qualify on its poor black level performance (relatively speaking, of course).

The availability of 1080p/24 has removed 720p from the table for me, so I'm waiting a little longer to jump in. I also need anamorphic stretch so I have two choices on the budget end right now (~$2600). One of them has occasional issues with dust and uniformity (LCD, of course) and one requires a player that forces 24fps. It's a very frustrating field of available projectors right now on the budget end of 1080p.

C

[draganm]

By the way, I'm not sure the Mits 4900 would qualify on its poor black level performance (relatively speaking, of course).C

I don't think that really matters to anyone else in this thread. I keep forgetting when I post here that most people actually watch movies with lights on in the room. This allows you to see your food, read a magazine, knit a sweater, and lots of other usefull activity's. :lol: With 7500:1 CR, you could also turn off the lights and make shadow puppets on the screen during the part of the movie that's supposed to be Black. :B
Seriously thoguh, If your not a CRt guy and want some true blacks in your movies, look for a gently used JVC RS1. That is an awesome machine and if your lucky you might find one for $3K? With the RS2 out now that price doesn't seem unimaginable.

[cjd]

I don't think that really matters to anyone else in this thread. I keep forgetting when I post here that most people actually watch movies with lights on in the room.

Noooo, it has nothing to do with lights on. That requires lumens.

It has to do with how black the blackest blacks get in a completely light controlled room. Remember, these things work bu letting light through and blocking it where it should be black. If it can't perfectly block all the light, it shows up a little grey. In fact, the more light control you have, the MORE annoying poor black level performance is, because that tiny bit of light has more impact in darker rooms.

C

[draganm]

It has to do with how black the blackest blacks get in a completely light controlled room. Remember, these things work bu letting light through and blocking it where it should be black. If it can't perfectly block all the light, it shows up a little grey. In fact, the more light control you have, the MORE annoying poor black level performance is, because that tiny bit of light has more impact in darker rooms.
C

well yeah, I know all that . My point was lots of folks actually watch with some lights on in the room . Under those condtions whether you have a 7500:1 or 30k:1 capable projector really makes no difference at all. My theatre is pretty well light controled, not pitch black but a very dark ceiling. Dynamic range is really important IMO and when my projector goes full fade to Black it's a really bad time to reach for your drink. It's also why I was so blown away by the RS1, first time I saw a digital come so close to that type of dynamic range.
Anyway, AFA the OT the Mitsubishi looks like an accpetable perfromer in that price range. Only thing that really bugs me about it is the 90 day lamp warrnty. I guess if it blows after 4 months you SOL and shelling out another $350.

[Openly Baffled]

I wouldn't exactly consider a $25k Runco CRT projector a "junker". It was supposed to be one of the best at the time. In fact, it was our best seller.



Anyway, you guys have to keep in mind that I am upgrading from an old InFocus SP4800. You also have to remember that the color wheel is 2x speed with a clear section in it so it can be a little brighter. That hurts the CR right there. It only has a CR of 2000:1. I'm sure the Pannie PT-A200U is going to be a huge improvement in just the CR alone for me.

As it is, I have the InFocus dialed in pretty good as is and the blacks are pretty good, but I doubt it can compare to anything the Pannie can put out.

[Hdale85]

I don't know how horrible the black levels are of the Mitsu.... It has very good black levels its just compared to the other 1080p projectors it's not quite as good. 7500:1 CR isn't horrible by any means.

[Openly Baffled]

And in defence of my SP4800, with most movies, the black levels are just fine. As an example, we just got done watching "The Incredibles", and the blacks looked black like they should. In all honesty, all movies that are moderately "bright", the blacks looks perfectly fine on my old InFocus.

Now where it starts to lack is when certain scenes or entire movies are dark. Then, and only then is it noticable that the black levels of the SP4800 are not that great.

Also, speaking of "The Incredibles", the crisp sharpness of this movie really makes the image quality of the SP4800 look great. You would almost think you were watching a HD image at times.

I'm just hoping that moving up to a new projector is going to warrent the cost and really be an "upgrade".

Has anyone ever done a direct comparison between the Pannie PT-AX200U and Mits HC4900?

[Dean McManis]

Runco had a mixed bag of front CRT projectors. Most were rebadged NEC units. NEC built some fine projectors, but most of the ones that were in any normal price range ($15K+ in the day) were data grade projectors that were optimal at 800 X 600p to 1024 X 768p resolution, even though the specs (like 30K:1) were rated at MUCH higher than most people ever really saw without (or sometimes even with) professional calibration.

Dragnm is clearly a CRT evangelist, but it's got to be getting harder and harder to hold that line. CRT projectors were at their peak many years ago, but the capabilities, versitility, and picture quality of digital projectors are really getting hard to dismiss these days.
Especially compared to CRT units with replacement parts getting older and rarer, and skilled service/calibration/maintenance availability similarly diminishing.

At the $1200K-$1400K price point it will be VERY difficult to match the picture quality, ease of use, and low maintenance reliability of digital projectors like the Panasonic PT-AX200U or the 1080p native Mitsubishi HC4900, not to mention the steep learning curve of CRT FPTVs, shipping and mounting difficulties, and the need for HDMI converters and external scalers for non-HD video sources.

To diehard supporters like Dragnm, CRT FPTVS will never die, but for the rest of the world their value has dimished over the years, just as new technology advances in digital projection have moved it's advantages to new levels. :T

[Openly Baffled]

What do you all have to say about the Epson Home Cinema 720? How does it compare to the PT-AX200U? Just looking at all my options.

[draganm]

Runco had a mixed bag of front CRT projectors. Most were rebadged NEC units. NEC built some fine projectors, but most of the ones that were in any normal price range ($15K+ in the day) were data grade projectors that were optimal at 800 X 600p to 1024 X 768p resolution, even though the specs (like 30K:1) were rated at MUCH higher than most people ever really saw without (or sometimes even with) professional calibration.

a lot of them, including the entire "cinepro series" were rebadged Zeniths. IN adition to painting the cases Black, Runco Added an internal line doublers to all these untis which scaled 480i to 480P, usually from VCR tapes. I'm sure that is the pic Baffled got used to seeing. It's a pretty awful example of what CRT is really capable of.

Dragnm is clearly a CRT evangelist, but it's got to be getting harder and harder to hold that line. CRT projectors were at their peak many years ago, but the capabilities, versitility, and picture quality of digital projectors are really getting hard to dismiss these days. Especially compared to CRT units with replacement parts getting older and rarer, and skilled service/calibration/maintenance availability similarly diminishing.

mostly true, except for the availiability of parts. More parts for the G70 today than ever before. I'm certainly not dismissing what tehcnology's like DILA are capable of, it's just that in order to get the quality I'm used to it's takes an RS1 or 2, well out of my price range. Your right though, I am a CRT forum-evangelist. I can't help it, I just love the big beasts as much as my turntable spinning a brand new vinyl record.

What do you all have to say about the Epson Home Cinema 720?

why even consider the PT AX200U, looke like 720 Pixles and lousy CR to Boot? In choosing between the Mitsubishi and the Epson, you get to choose between a smooth 1080P pic with only 2500:1 on/off CR or the Epson with 720P and full 10K:1 on/off. That's a tough choice. I would save up and shoot for a PJ that does both. Since your old 480 is still chugging along and your the type who keeps his gear for a long time, it would be worth the wait to do it right.

[gc8ej25]

Here are some comparisons from projectorreviews.com.

Epson HC720 vs Panasonic PT-AX200U

The Panasonic has the advantage in overall brightness, but the Epson is second in the field, particularly when comparing the brightest modes. I'd definitely favor the Epson for sports viewing, with its richer colors, and crisper image. The Panasonic, and the Epson are pretty close for movie viewing, but I'd probably give the Panasonic the edge in its Cinema 1 mode (which is more film-like), although if you want extra lumens, the Panasonic Vivid Cinema mode is brighter than Epson's Theatre or Theater Black 1 mode, but also gives up the Panasonic's Cinema 1 film-like advantage.

Epson HC720 vs Mitsubishi HC1500 and Optoma HD70.

Of course the Epson offers exceptional placement flexibility, while these two DLP projectors are just the opposite, with very limited placement (no lens shift, 1.2:1 zooms vs 2.1:1). Neither of them can be practically shelf mounted, and therefore will be ceiling mounted (more hassle, and more expense, usually).

As a result, a large chunk of the buying public will pass on the DLP's. If you are one still considering them, look to the film-like advantage and black level advantage to go to the DLP's with the Mitsubishi, overall, having a slight edge on the Optoma.

From a brightness standpoint, in best modes, the Epson and Optoma HD70 are almost identical, while the Mitsubishi, is much brighter. In brightest modes, the Epson crushes the Optoma, but compared to the HC1500, they are close, with the advantage going to the Epson. In fact, the range of the Epson's zoom lens is the determining factor. If the Epson is at furthest difference, it's about the same brightness as the Mitsubishi, but it is slightly brighter in mid-position, and several hundred lumens brighter in closest position. On that note, the Optoma's zoom range places it roughly between the Epson's closest and mid-zoom ranges, with the Mitsubishi not being able to position as far back as the Epson, even with the Epson at mid-point on the zoom.

Epson HC720 vs Sony AW15

These two are both 3LCD, and have similar placement flexibility (the Epson does have the advantage though).

After that, though, they don't compete much. The Epson is a brute, with the horsepower for larger screens and fighting ambient light. The Sony will have less far appeal in that regard. In best mode, the two projectors are similar in brightness, but when you want to go big, or fight ambient light, the Epson in brightest mode is almost three times as bright!

Ok lets look at a summary of the HC720's strengths and weaknesses.

[Openly Baffled]

So if you guys had your choice, money not an option, which would you choose?

1) Panasonic PT-AX200U
2) Epson HC720
3) Mitsubishi HC1500
4) Optoma HD70


I'm just trying to figure out which direction to head in.

[draganm]

out of that lack-luster list, the Espon appears the most likely to deliver a watchable pic.

[Hdale85]

Watchable? I think your being a bit harsh there....

[draganm]

Watchable? I think your being a bit harsh there....

I'm very picky, thought you would have gotten used to that by now? :P plus im spoiled, been watching a beautiful, Pixel free image with incredible dynamic range for 5 years now. If that Epson had the full 10K:1 CR AND 1080 Pixels I would call it a reall winner for $1300. As is, it's merely watchable.
I feel the same way about audio. CD's are great for background music and I consider them listenable. No way I can sit down in front of my system and really listen to them though. Thank Goodness they're still pressing new Vinyl. :T

[Openly Baffled]

Watchable? I think your being a bit harsh there....

I've grown to ignore most of what he says. :urinate:

[draganm]

I've grown to ignore most of what he says. :urinate:

good for you, ignorance is bliss after all. I was simply trying to help you make an informed decision, i didn't mean to overwhelm you limited ability to learn. your "Openly baffled" and destined to stay that way.

[Openly Baffled]

ignorance is bliss after all.

As you are using old, outdated CRT video gear. :rofl:

You're not trying to help. You're just shooting down every DLP/LCD projector anyone mentions and trying to convert people to old technology.

[draganm]

As you are using old, outdated CRT video gear. :rofl:
You're not trying to help. You're just shooting down every DLP/LCD projector anyone mentions and trying to convert people to old technology.

Is that REALLY all you got out of all the posts I've made in this thread?

[Hdale85]

Well.... I would somewhat agree with him as you say just about every projector mentioned is "unwatchable" to be quite honest your unwatchable is not everyone else's...in fact its hardly anyone else's not trying to start anything here just saying that everytime someone mentions something you mention negative things about it compared to your crt projector. Not many people want enormous heavy CRT projectors or the problems that come with setting them up and keeping them running. Let alone the expense of replacing the tubes when they need to be.

[draganm]

Well.... I would somewhat agree with him as you say just about every projector mentioned is "unwatchable" to be quite honest your unwatchable is not everyone else's...in fact its hardly anyone else's not trying to start anything here just saying that everytime someone mentions something you mention negative things about it compared to your crt projector. Not many people want enormous heavy CRT projectors or the problems that come with setting them up and keeping them running. Let alone the expense of replacing the tubes when they need to be.

no, how do guys manage to keep reading things in my posts that arent there. I never said every PJ on that list was unwatchable. Here's exactly whjat I said

720P and 2000:1 CR was really the bomb with digital projectors 5 years ago but by todays standards it sucks and 480P is unwatchable IMO.
With any digital you want at least 1080P to avoid seeing Pixels and I think 15K:1 CR is the starting point for acceptable dynamic range. :T

so basically, what I said was
1) A projector with only 480 vertical Pixel resolution is Crap, total garabge
2) by todays standards, 720P and 2000:1 CRr is rather lousy, you need to do better on at least one of those parameters to get a good picture.

what I said specifically about that list of PJ's Baffled put up is

out of that lack-luster list, the Espon appears the most likely to deliver a watchable pic.

lets face it,nothing on there to jump up and down about. HOWEVER, I chose the Epson with 10K:1 native on/off CR as the one most likely to satisfy a person who wasn't super picky and could tolerate some Pixleation at 1.5 seating distance.
Besides the the intial link to the G70, I never recomended a CRT again in this thread. but hey, don't let the facts get in the way of conspiracy theories and 2-sentence attention span of the OP.